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London voted Remain as it's a very rich City which has benefitted from globalisation and EU.
There are many immigrant workers in Essex/Norfolk etc and they voted heavily Leave.
Slough: Leave
Many areas with a high portion of non-EU immigrants (with UK passports) voted Leave as they think it's very unfair an EU citizen has freedom of movement but someone from India, Bangladesh or ****stan does not.
I didn't meet many Leavers who thought Immigrants where the cause of the UK's problems, I met many who thought they where making certain problems worse, eg stress on services and rising rents / house prices.
@kelvin the NHS is under pressure from costs rising at 4%, ageing population etc. Adding 300,000 people a year is NOT helping as we are not fully costing that immigration in terms of additional hospitals, doctors nurses etc.
There are many immigrant workers in Essex/Norfolk etc and they voted heavily Leave.
I went to a farmers wedding in Norfolk and groom was considered to be an immigrant worker, same as the Polish, as he was from Suffolk, which apparently made him a Northerner ...
Adding 300,000 people a year is NOT helping as we are not fully costing that immigration in terms of additional hospitals, doctors nurses etc.
And yet
Immigrants are much less likely to use the NHS as on average they are much younger than our ageing (Brexit voting) population.
More to the point those ageing old Brexiters need the immigrants, 25%. Of all doctors born outside the UK
1 in 7 immigrants employed in NHS or social care
jamba,
I know it's pretty pointless meeting your crap with facts but the vast majority of immigrants are young workers with low health needs and high tax generation. Plus, a shockingly high proportion of NHS workers are actually immigrants themselves. That the govt doesn't choose to spend the immigration windfall on the NHS is a political choice they have made, reducing immigration will reduce their income without proportionately reducing the NHS demand.
New Forest - very strong Leave vote. If you see a person not from the New Forest people still point at them, god knows what would happen if an actual immigrant turned up.
You can still be racist even if you never come across the races you are racist against....
Adding 300,000 people a year is NOT helping as we are not fully costing that immigration in terms of additional hospitals, doctors nurses etc.
That's a very simplistic and a, what's the word? It's got to do with grouping foriegners together and not dealing with individuals case by case, what the bloody hell is it? It sounds like something Enoch would say and he was one. I hate it when I can't find the correct English vocabulary!
How many of those 300,00 are paying their way?
Signs of sanity in Euro-land:
You must have missed the bit where she said May needs to share her plans for Brexit.
Remember, there is no plan.
Adding 300,000 people a year is NOT helping as we are not fully costing that immigration in terms of additional hospitals, doctors nurses etc.
But some of those 300,000 are actually NHS workers! Mind blown!
Immigrants generate money. Money gets taxed. Tax pays for NHS.
Where's the cost in immigration? Show me in simple terms.
Do we need to remind him again...
300,000 total, over 50% are via non eu countries on strict visa rules... So leaving the eu wouldn't change that.
Also low unemployment is one of the indicators that migration is needed. That and the stats that showed that immigration was a net positive for the economy (ie providing more cash than it takes)
So what we are left with was a political campaign that ignored the real reasons behind stuff and shouted IMMIGRATION any time they needed a quick answer and somebody to blame.
Adding 300,000 people a year is NOT helping as we are not fully costing that immigration in terms of additional hospitals, doctors nurses etc.
Care to address the actual increases in UK population due to immigration, not a number but perhaps a percentage?
I was just pointing out that the combined NHS and cost lies printed on buses and behind key politicians while giving their campaign speeches were key to the Leave campaign. The fact that people list "immigrants" as main reason for voting does not distract from the success of this approach (based on lies) as Jambalya has helpfully reinforced. People (wrongly) blame immigrants for "adding to the problems" of the NHS, when as others have said, they are needed to fund it. This was the genius of the lie on the bus… suggesting that a Leave vote will make us richer as a country, and help sort out the problems of our services… and the fact that it doesn't take much digging to see that the opposite is true is irrelevant. The bullshit stuck, and helped win the vote.
Things the Express and Telegraph write about what European leaders say need to be taken with a very big pinch of salt. I've seen things badly translated and distorted to suit the papers' agendas with for example Fillon's criticism of the EU grossly exaggerated and removed from the context of his position in a party firmly in favour of continued membership of the EU.
Fillon's "friendship" with Poutine has made more headlines recently than anything concerning Brexit. The Poles are very worried about the Russians so objectively they're better off being friends with a strategic block somewhat bigger than GB.
Your papers are misleading you, European leaders are making acceptable noises while making plans to make sure the Brexit does the least damage possible whilst making the most of the new opportunities it provides. Use your imaginations.
Record (possibly) numbers of nasty foreigners...
Record employment....
...[i]all aboard the bus[/i]...
...[b]"they steal our jobs"![/b]
...[i]we do make it up!![/i]
[I]Of course we can chose to have a really small state with Reduced planning, regulations, Employment and environment protection and free trade but as this is the opposite of what people's day to day concerns are I am not sure that would be very popular. [/I]
Lets be clear though, the Tories have never been promoters of the 'small state', you may THINK they are but in reality they've never practised it. You only have to look at the Autumn Statement for the extra regulations (on self-employed and Limited businesses) to see that.
@mike understaood half are non-EU and a big chunk of those are students, I was just using the headline numbers.
Where's the cost in immigration? Show me in simple terms.
How much tax paid exactly and stratified by income bands, do we know ? No, as we where never given the data on all these "young immigrants". How many medical claims or visits to Doctors ? How many extra hospital beds or GPs do,we need for 300,000 pa, where is the costed plan ?
What is the impact on rental market and on house prices, do we know ? Has anyone even done a study to estimate ?
We can understand what the impact is if we actually check or we are allowed access to the data, but we don't collect most of it and we are not allowed access in any case.
If the impact on the NHS is so low then the people concerned won't mind buying a health insurance acceptable to the NHS (as it will be very cheap as claims history will show it's not needed) and/or paying an excess.
As I posted before I know someone who works in HR in the NHS, these immigrant workers what portion from inside the EU vs outside the EU with a visa ?
How much tax paid exactly and stratified by income bands, do we know ? No, as we where never given the data on all these "young immigrants". How many medical claims or visits to Doctors ? How many extra hospital beds or GPs do,we need for 300,000 pa, where is the costed plan ?
What is the impact on rental market and on house prices, do we know ? Has anyone even done a study to estimate ?
All questions you need to answer if you want to back up the claim you've made.
Kelvin, that video has made me reappraise my whole viewpoint on Europe.
You can't argue with facts like that.
Paul Ormerod has an interesting piece on his blog titled 'The people of Burnley and Bradford have a point about the impact of immigration' where he discuss how “immigrant arrivals to the United Kingdom were a supply shock in the market for low-skilled workers”.
Turns out immigration might not have only had positive benefits afterall.
That video crashed halfway through for me.
It's a sign I tell you.
I was just using the headline numbers.
I know you were, you were using the wrong number to try and exaggerate your point as usual.
That video is great .
it is got everything in it :
£350m a week to the nhs
and take back control .
😕
And now UKIP have a Christian Right Wing Career Politician Leader, it's all falling in place now...
Turns out immigration might not have only had positive benefits afterall.
absolutely
while it fills company coffers and tax revenue for the government, the communities that house them often dont see the benefit
thats not the fault of immigration or immigrants,
the media hysteria & Leave campaigns great efforts to blame them whilst the government oversaw the biggest cuts ever to local authorities, shouldve been fairly obvious bullshit to anyone
If the impact on the NHS is so low then the people concerned won't mind buying a health insurance acceptable to the NHS (as it will be very cheap as claims history will show it's not needed) and/or paying an excess.
They might not mind, but I would… introducing extra insurance and/or charges for people who are paying more than their fair share already, just because they are "them" not "us", would sum up everything that is going wrong in this country to me.
I'm already highly sceptical about this for non-EEA immigrants : https://www.gov.uk/healthcare-immigration-application/when-you-need-to-pay : and can absolutely see the scope of it steadily increasing, or even rapidly increasing in about 28 months time.
There is an incredible correlation between areas of high NHS dependency and areas that voted leave. It's remarkable actually. Targeted almost.
Yep, very smart campaigning.
The poorer your background, the less likely you are to see what the EU actually does first hand, I'd say.
If you hang out in say IT, in London - half your mates are EU citizens. If you are involved in the running of businesses, you are using the facilities it offers. If you work in a shop, you probably aren't aware of what it does for you.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38134859
These individual notes do not belong to a government official or a special adviser. They do not reflect the government's position in relation to Brexit negotiations," a spokesman said.
I bet they do
jambalayaWhere's the cost in immigration? Show me in simple terms.
How much tax paid exactly and stratified by income bands, do we know ? No, as we where never given the data on all these "young immigrants". How many medical claims or visits to Doctors ? How many extra hospital beds or GPs do,we need for 300,000 pa, where is the costed plan ?What is the impact on rental market and on house prices, do we know ? Has anyone even done a study to estimate ?
We can understand what the impact is if we actually check or we are allowed access to the data, but we don't collect most of it and we are not allowed access in any case.
No disrespect Andra, but this is just the point: no-one knows. And as no-one knows, then it can't really be used as an argument for in our out, can it?
Would it not then be better to [i]actually find out what the impact is[/i], and having done that, [i]present it to the country and let them make a decision on what we do next[/i]?
But it isn't simple what may be great for high tech firms and we'll educated people isn't necessarily good for less skilled workers, see my note in the previous page. And what may be good for London or the M4 corridor may not be good for Burnley or the Welsh valleys.
@cody agreed but that's my point, the Government is supposed to address these points with facts ? Given they have not done the cynic in me says the information wasn't helpful to Remain. As someone campaigning for Leave why not make the statement and wait to be challenged ?
These photographed notes are a F-up in my view. Extremely sloppy and careless. They are clearly meeting notes of a discussion inside number 10. Nothing particularly interesting really and consistent with what May has said publically. We cannot stay in THE single market, nor the customs union or EEA as they are all too restrictive with respect to global trade opportunities and are contra to the key voter issues of freedom of movement and the ECJ
introducing extra insurance and/or charges for people who are paying more than their fair share already
We don't know what they are paying, how can you know it's more than their fair share ? I think the contrary
Anyway arguing about this is pointless, the vote is done and dusted.
Sunday in Austria and Italy is the next key development. Will Austria back away from the far right or will the Brexit/Trump effect embolden people to vote for change ?
As someone campaigning for Leave why not make the statement and wait to be challenged?
Because by doing so you show that you are more concerned with "winning" than trying to make things better? Being a better liar who is prepared to wilfully mislead others to further his own personal aims isn't something to be proud of.
Will Austria back away from the far right or will the Brexit/Trump effect embolden people to vote for change ?
Hopefully people will have learned that brexit/trump right wing populism is just a nastier, more expensive and cruler version of what they have been told they should fight against. I have to say I'm struggling to understand why you are so keen to see the far right win. Unless it helps feed your ideological goal to destroy anything to do with Europe.
Anyway arguing about this is pointless, the vote is done and dusted.
😉
and are contra to the key voter issues of freedom of movement and the ECJ
Those were not on the ballot paper.
People might have thought they were voting for that, or they might not. So there's no reason for the government to care about that anymore than the £350M or anything else on the moon-on-a-stick wishlist.
[url> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38134859 <"what's the model? Have your cake and eat it"[/url] and "Unlikely to do Internal Market" so still a clueless shambles
brexishambles ought to be a warnng to Austrai and Italy, no matter how excited some stwers get about a far-right resurgence 😯
Will Austria back away from the far right or will the Brexit/Trump effect embolden people to vote for change ?
I do wonder what people will do when they see the sort of changes that are likely. Not sure what sort of examples they are, both brexit and Trump have managed to abandon most of their claims and promises within days of the vote.
The far right candidate in Austria only promised a referendum on the EU if Turkey joins the EU.
Those photographed notes are great, all they are missing is "Blue Sky Thinking" triple underlined.
I'm also looking forward to kids all over the UK learning Polish at school. They could start off with some approved phrases, "Outward looking and open for business", "Out of the EU, closer to Europe", and "Freer than free trade". They could fit it in between Corporate Governance and RE (and extra tutoring for Grammar school).
However I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Italy debate EU membership. You've perhaps noted that in previous posts I've been positive about about the P and S parts of PIGS with graphs to demonstrate. Greeks aren't happy but seem happy fighting from within. Italy is the weakest link and their media are as barmy as the DM and co..
Edit: to justify. For decades Italian exporters remained competitive thanks to a series of competitive Lire devaluations. Since they signed up to the Euro that hasn't been possible. They're also taking the brunt of North African Immigration.
will the Brexit/Trump effect embolden people to vote for change
I'm genuinely quite shocked at your enthusiasm for what is at best a resurgence of far right sentiment across the western world, and at worst the new descent into fascism. You claim to believe in democracy, what's happening now is a direct threat to it. Add this to your enthusiasm for seeing the collapse of the EU and all the horrific effects that will bring I'm beginning to think you're one of the nihilist apocalypse anti-human types.
[i]We don't know what they are paying, how can you know it's more than their fair share ? I think the contrary[/I]
Fair share?
Are you now demanding that a person can only have access to the NHS based upon contributions, as I'm pretty sure the vast majority of us that pay UK tax and NI if faced with a large medical 'bill' (ie, long-term illness or life-threatening emergency) haven't paid enough in to cover it - or younger folk who've not yet earned much etc?
[img] 
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Seems like leaving the EU doesn't actually make us leave the EEA anyway....
the Government is supposed to address these points with facts ?
They did
Given they have not done the cynic in me says the information wasn't helpful to Remain.
it was, Brexshiteers chose to ignore it...."we have had enough of experts, we prefer the sewer"
As someone campaigning for Leave why not make the statement and wait to be challenged ?
As this thread showed, the level of debate (sic) took place well below this level. Everytime Brexshiteers were challenged on the 5 central lies and then issues such as financial liability, impact of immigration etc, they ran away or ignored/rejected the facts.
And this is symptomatic of the wider debate. As ninfan's chart showed, the level was down in the gutter of we don't like foreigners and mainly driven by those for whom immigration was not/is not an issue - xenophobia and racism exposed at its crudest levels.
Its bad enough when Brexshiteers lie to others, but when they end up having to lie to themselves then we have reached a true low point.
Time for a ride - mini-rant over, need to cool down!
Anyway arguing about this is pointless, the vote is done and dusted.
Agreed it's in the past and can now be ignored so we can get back to the proper business of representative democracy instead of silly opinion polls. 😉
That note reads like someone who can't believe the ridiculous opinions they are hearing but feels the need to write them down to aid recollection. Hence the "have cake and eat it" comment for example. I think I've been in that meeting once or twice.
I think it refers to the scones and jam trade.
And tea! Don't forget the tea!
I've just decided that in the tradition of politicians adopting pop songs, the Maybot should now just come out to "Pump up the Jam(s)" by Technotronic.
At least it will give us something to look forward to instead of more leaden soundbites and 'policy' climbdowns.
Seems like leaving the EU doesn't actually make us leave the EEA anyway....
You missed out "some lawyers argue"...
Was that notebook left open on purpose?
The cabinet might not be as United as they it is.
anyone who thinks trump = change should take a look of the backgrounds of the people appointed to run things
[quote=dazh ]
I'm genuinely quite shocked at your enthusiasm for what is at best a resurgence of far right sentiment across the western world,
He's massively far right!
He's massively far right!
He's definitely on the rabid side of the the right but not necessarily 'far right'. There's a big difference I think. The difference is that your classic uber-right tories are usually on the libertarian side of things. What differentiates the far right is a rabid authoritarian streak fuelled by hatred of minorities.
Although to be fair he does have the far right habit of shamelessly spouting lies as fact so maybe you have a point 🙂
[b]EUROPEAN Union officials are astonished that Britain’s Brexit plan goes all the way to the bottom of an A4 page.[/b]A photograph taken of Brexit notes has shocked EU negotiators by displaying full sentences and appearing to have a rudimentary grasp of the subject.
EU official Hans-Jurgen Wecker admitted: “This has changed our entire approach. We were planning to just use interns for the negotiations, but now we are at least sending a junior to supervise.
“A full page without, as far as we can see, any doodles of abstract patterns in the margins is a level of seriousness beyond anything we have seen thus far from Britain, and three to four levels beyond your foreign secretary.
“There are even rumours that the notes continue onto a second page and contain some mathematical workings-out. Who knew the people behind ‘Brexit means Brexit’ were capable of this?”
Wecker added: “‘Have your cake and eat it’, we know. This is an English-language idiom which we believe translates to asking for everything but ending with nothing at all.”
anyone who thinks trump = change should take a look of the backgrounds of the people appointed to run things
So Obama and Trump are interchangeable? Interesting... 😯
had enough of experts
Why not quote it properly THM?
[i]People have had enough of experts from organisations with acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong [/i]
Why not quote it properly THM?People have had enough of experts from organisations with acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong
coz its making the same point regardless ? 😉
Or the more recent...
"Experts, soothsayers, astrologers are all in much the same category."
Mmmmm-hmmmmm...
funnily enough he was quoting the OECD today saying that they are revising up growth for the UK
seems like post truthism is a fickle beast
Is it me, or did the kippers elect the love child of Adrian Edmondson and Al Murray who has a name suspiciously like Nutty?
Was that notebook left open on purpose?
Is a vaild question. As culprit was an aide of Frank Field it would be good to do some digging around him and her.
@edukator re Spain and Portugal me too, they are trying to follow the rules. I have two friends who have recently retired to Lisbon, both around 50 and just decided more time in London/finance was just not worth it having recently been made redunant. There is a big tax break they are offereing too (no income tax for 10 years if yoir retire there, my wife tells me it's much cheaper too even than rural France)
Whole "far right" label is in many cases an attempt to smear opposition parties. The fact is if mainstream parties don't offer what voters want they leave the door very much open. The more eurosceptics we have in Europe the more leverage we will have in the UK.
@boarding I normally vote and donate to Lib Dem (Labour in '97), Tories offered an EU referendum so that swung it for me in 2015, no brainer. As of today the Tories are the only remotely credible party to vote for, this opinion poll in the Guardian reflects reality on the ground imho
Tories 44
Labour 28
UKIP 12
Lib Dem 7
Geeens 4
Yeah according to that poll the 'kippers are going back to voting Tory now after the UKIP post ref meltdown.
Sadly looks like as our population ages we are swirling round the loo toward a reactionary, inward looking, xenophobic, right wing pootopia. 🙁
Sadly looks like as our population ages we are swirling round the loo toward a reactionary, inward looking, xenophobic, right wing pootopia
The only hope is for the younger (more open minded and less selfish) generation to take over when all the old right wing bigots die out. About 20 years time it should start looking a bit better I would hope.
The only hope is for the younger (more open minded and less selfish) generation to take over when all the old right wing bigots die out. About 20 years time it should start looking a bit better I would hope.
Unless drifting to the right is a sign of ageing, along with elastic waisted beige pants (urine smell optional) , deafness, a belief that things were better when we where young and parking badly. 😯
I think the theory about a drift to the right is that you accumulate wealth as you get older and want to keep it, so vote for more conservative policies etc.
I'm not sure the youth of today will be accumulating much wealth...
The only hope is for the younger (more open minded and less selfish) generation to take over when all the old right wing bigots die out. About 20 years time it should start looking a bit better I would hope.
This lot?
[img] 
[/img]
You realise that when that lot were getting high, the other 98% of the population were feeling pretty pleased with themselves for getting jobs for life and saving for their first houses...
Whole "far right" label is in many cases an attempt to smear opposition parties.
Not really, it is more of an observation of their proposed policies.
The fact is if mainstream parties don't offer what voters want they leave the door very much open. The more eurosceptics we have in Europe the more leverage we will have in the UK.
Or what seems to be the case is that people don't like what they are experiencing, a populist party from the hard right (or left) says it is due to XYZ (usually exaggerating, simplifying or lying) rather than the actual ABC (under investment, type of work doesn't exist anymore, etc), this is supported by partisan media, mainstream parties find that facts can't fight bullshit and are attacked in the press (unpatriotic, doing down, etc) for trying to make their point and voila, instant brexishambles/trumpageddon where the delivered "solution" fails to address any of the real underlying problems and creates many more in the process.
It's not so much as leaving the door open as finding a door put in where there is no need for one and then having someone kick it in.
Tories offered an EU referendum so that swung it for me in 2015, no brainer.
I do agree with you on this though. No brain involved whatsoever 😉
In a bizare twist of brexishambles a bunch of tory MPs wrote a letter to the EC complaining about them not starting negoriations soon enough
Tusk had an easy time pointing out that they knew not of which they spoke
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they knew not of which they spoke
I know not exactly who wrote to Tusk, but their ailment does seem to be common amongst Brexies. Were they Brexies?
These people are embarrassing - to think that some are representing us. Its mind bogglingly awful.
As culprit was an aide of Frank Field
Almost. Another senior moment (though I admit I did the same double take).
Mark Field
written by Michael Tomlinson and Steve Baker, (Tory MPs) and signed by 80 others including Gove & IDS 🙄
Is that the bloke off the Royle Family?
Once again like dragons last comment we are far too high up the intellectual tree discussing this, nothing Mrs May or the three muppets have alluded to (with the notable exception of immigration which is fabricated bollocks) even remotely offers an opportunity for the working poor of any post industrial town - this is the embedded time bomb and I am sure UKIP are going to build a campaign/platform around this "look what those heartless Tory gits haven't done for you" bear in mind they have watched trump March to power on the back of "coal mines/factorys for all" which any one with a couple of brain cells understands you can have provided you are willing to pay £1000 for a bog standard TV (crap example but you get the drift)
This is all about local economics going forward, I have a depressing track record on this as I called the Tory Majority, Brexit and Trump correctly- do you really think pollsters are going around the clubs and pubs of the North of England asking pissed working class poor people which way they will vote? Mr Nuttal has greater appeal in these areas than Farage - I going to say that UKIP will take a significant number of seats at the next GE and the longer Mrs May postpones the GE the more they will take - anyone remember Scotland Labour MPs back in the 90s -all gone. UKIP can become UK SNP to a certain extent