[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

As above, all about the power. Regardless of what they all spout if they had the chance to be PM they would take it, with very few exceptions.

Corbyn obviously doesn't want the job.

FIRE UP THE ZIMMER FRAMES!!!

Nigel Farage is planning to lead a 100,000-strong march to the Supreme Court to coincide with the start of the Government’s attempt to stop peers and MPs delaying Brexit.

The march, organised by the anti-European Union campaign Leave.EU, will end with a rally in Parliament Square within sight of the court building where judges will be hearing the appeal.

The Daily Telegraph can also disclose that Leave.EU is planning to “crowd fund” £100,000 from its supporters to pay for barristers to represent Leave supporters in the court action.

This will mean that the anti-EU supporters will have their own barristers in the legal action, who can challenge claims made by Remain supporters and even the Government.

Mr Farage - the interim leader of the UK Independence Party - and other prominent Leave supporters are due to lead the march from Trafalgar Square along Whitehall to Parliament Square.

Britain first are polishing their Dc Martens and shaving their head in preparation .

it wont be all about the zimmer frames

you can bet farage's solitary testicle that the EDL etc will be loving this

'death to traitors, freedom for Britain'

[img] [/img]

All this plus we have fixed term Parliaments so an early eelction effectively has to be called via the opposition and a vote of no confidence.

And how unlikely is that really?

Fairly unlikely to engineer losing a vote of confidence deliberatly. the other way is a 2/3 vote in parliament to disolve it.

EDL and Britain First? I don't think so. Brexit is all about opportunity. Opportunity for the brightest and best from all over the world to work and live here. We're outward looking, and open for business. A march led by Nigel Farage will only ever be an amazing advert for this brave new and forward looking Britain.

Bravo.

I wonder when the last post on this thread will be? It's got at least 3 years to go I reckon .
How much shit will have flown under the bridge by then?

I think this one has legs, especially if they decide to try the EU courts to restrict the powers of the UK parliament
https://www.appliancesonline.com.au/irons/
On the postureing JC has laid down some red lines good on him, he has not said they won't support the government, just they will oppose stupid ideas. It won't be a problem for May as her party is 100% united on the EU and has never in it's history rebelled on an EU bill ever #FACT.

May doesn't want to put A50 through parliament as it's akin to not throwing the hand grenade far enough out of the bunker. It hurts you more than anyone else.

TJ other May scenarios exist. A50 in March followed by radical change of govt in France, Merkel gone / materially weakened in a new right oeaning coalition. EU agrees decent deal for UK againat a backdrop of shrinking EU economy. Greek debt crises resurfaces and UK population realises we have dodged a bullet as EU infighting reaches fever pitch. All during this time and increasingly ineffective Corbyn sees Labour go further left. 2020 Tory landslide.s

@zippy who knows, many more posts and the issue will clearly run till 2019 and beyond

100,000 Neanderthals causing a public nuisance?

The news came as Mr Farage warned that any attempts to overturn the results of the referendum risked "political anger the likes of which none of us in our lifetimes have ever witnessed".

“This will remind the Government/politicians and the establishment including the court that they cannot ignore [s]the democratic vote of the people in the referendum[/s] democracy and debate and submit to the threat of violent action”

Asked whether that could mean “disturbances in the street”, he replied: “Yeah, I think that's right.”

I hope the Public Order Act is invoked.

Greek debt crises resurfaces and UK population realises we have dodged a bullet as EU infighting reaches fever pitch.

"Why did she take on the leadership?"

I guess purely because she wants to be PM and is prepared to do it even at a difficult time.

Let's be honest every PM has an endless succession of decisions where all the options are unpopular. This is just more of the same of a bigger scale.

"Why did she take on the leadership?"

Kudos to her for not dodging the bullet and giving it a go in very difficult circumstances unlike other politicians who were very active in the campaign but jumped at the first opportunity.

Will Brexit be the same as the Southern States succeeding from the Union and then resulting in the civil war, my thinking is instead it will be years of endless political infighting and maneuvering with everybody being in the same place as when they started?

Can't help thinking that Farage's 10,000 Primate March might backfire on him quite badly if it is heavily attended by Britain First, EDL et al. Though I'm sure they'll spin it as unpatriotic Remainer traitors trying to cause trouble. 🙄

On a lighter note, this made me laugh:

Another lie by Vote Leave exposed for what it was

http://www.relocatemagazine.com/news/vote-leave-proposes-points-system-for-uk-visas-david-sapsted

a statement from the leaders of Vote Leave camp - Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Priti Patel, and Gisela Stuart - pledged that "by the next general election, we will create a genuine Australian-style points-based immigration system".

https://www.ft.com/content/94adcefa-1dd5-11e6-a7bc-ee846770ec15

The argument that limiting European immigrants will give Commonwealth citizens easier access has been increasingly put forward by the Out campaign.

we all know that the consumers of Ready Brexit would be even more upset by more non-white immigrants over the white european ones

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/06/uk-will-not-offer-more-work-visas-to-indian-nationals-says-may

Well May has just announced a fast track visa system for Indians.

If they come to Yorkshire they'll not need visa's as long as they buy the beers.

That's good news. Inevitable, obviously. Becoming more international means more international immigrants.

Let's see how the express readers cope with that.
At least the whole country can hate her now.

Just wait for free movement with Australia. Love will be forthcoming.

So we'll swap the " those bloomin Poles ,coming over here, stealing our jobs", for " those bloomin' Indians...". Back to the 1970s it is then. Time to bring back Alf Garnet (yes,I know it was satire).

As I've said before, nothing the Brexit voters perceived to be wrong with this country will be fixed by Brexit, just potentially made a lot worse, with additional problems on top.

So basically here tough negotiating policy is to just give rich people whatever they want.
From henceforth she shall be known as The Aluminium Lady.
There again any of her promises can just be renounced the next day as a "mistake."

[url= https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-leave-remain-52-48-per-cent-voter-turnout-electoral-register-7399226 ]The overwhelming majority of Britain want to leave?[/url]

They missed pets and spam bots from that pie chart.

I'm sure those of us overseas who registered but the ballot papers didn't arrive in time etc. will be in there somewhere too.

A couple of quotes from Enola's creator that seem apt.

I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.

The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true.

A love letter from Farage to Enola? (from the beloved proprietor of the Daily Mail's grandfather who is obviously trying to pick up where granddad left off)

[img] [/img]

Looking at the link kimbers posted, its fast track visas, not more visas for India. "We have quite enough brown people", says May.

For some sheer unbridled lunacy I can highly recommend listening to UKIP leadership hopeful Suzanne Evans on the R4 Today show (8:20), as she discusses Farage's call to arms and her view on the judiciary.

Best get those whips sharpened:

[img] [/img]
([url= https://www.indy100.com/article/the-chart-brexiters-dont-want-to-see-before-mps-vote-on-article-50-7398116 ]Sauce: Indy100[/url])

Difficult position really - if MPS let it slide through with barely a comment then they clearly don't have the courage of their convictions, but if they actually block it then they are "subverting the will of the people".

(Incidentally does anyone else find the notion of MPS being "whipped" slightly uncomfortable? Most of them probably enjoy it).

Graham - the answer to that would be use the parliamentary debates to expose the nonsense at the heart of the leave campaign and the damage that leaving will do - then a second referendum

The problem is there is even more irrational hatred flying around now than before the first vote.
Whether it will be idiots hating more or more idiots hating I don't know.
We can however look forward to more German cars being damaged on a Friday night along with the old 2 world wars and 1 World Cup chant.
After all ,Nigel said it was ok.

So the first country May and Fox visit to get trade deals asks for more freedom of movement for its people.
Read this morning that the UK association of Curry house chefs is very disappointed to have voted Leave as he did it on the promise of the visa point system which would allow more chefs in the country. Sadly May has said no point system, train more UK chefs.

That's why Enola doesn't want it anywhere parliament until the damage is done and she can present the whole mess as a fait accompli - once article 50 is triggered it will be too late.

Someone need to get a grip of all of this. We are looking like imbeciles.

The appetite for a third referendum should be zero. We have just had two that were grossly abused. Why have another - other than a vain hope that it could be third time lucky?

We had the vote, the CoJ have told us what to do. Do it, and try to do it well. We can't keep suffering from uncertainty neither can the Europeans.

We had the vote, the CoJ have told us what to do. Do it, and try to do it well. We can't keep suffering from uncertainty neither can the Europeans.

Hence Junker and Co telling her to hurry up.

along with the old 2 world wars and 1 World Cup chant.

I think the first WW actually ended as draw. Victory was declared after extra time. Don't suppose that a fact will get in the way tho. 😀

But what vote?

No one can agree even in the UK and that's before we start the proper negotiations, I hate to sound like a Brexshiteers but I have some sympathy with the idea that this is (in danger of becoming) merely an obstruction of the political process

It is a fantasy to believe that Parliament is going to be able to agree a strategy.

No one can agree even in the UK and that's before we start the proper negotiations, I hate to sound like a Brexshiteers but I have some sympathy with the idea that this is (in danger of becoming) merely an obstruction of the political process

It is a fantasy to believe that Parliament is going to be able to agree a strategy.

As with many things the lawyers are already perusing the Fairline and Bently brochures

[I]For some sheer unbridled lunacy I can highly recommend listening to UKIP leadership hopeful Suzanne Evans on the R4 Today show (8:20), as she discusses Farage's call to arms and her view on the judiciary.[/I]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b081l7z9#play

F***ing nutter, can't see beyond her dogmatic views.

It seem that are representatives have really lost control of their emotions over the past 4-5 days. The debate has descended to farcical levels now not helped by the absurd media coverage including the broadsheets. I was driving late last night and listening to a R4 debate at around midnight - there was some lady trying to justify the crap that the Torygraph had been saying (Judges v the people) She's was clearly articulate and intelligent but trying here very best to play down the latter.

It may well be that parliament fails to agree a workable strategy, but does that mean it can simply be bypassed?
Can we set a precedent whereby a government's self imposed problems can be solved simply through bypassing the democratic process?
Parliament manages to make many difficult decisions through debate and compromise. If there is no debate, there will only be what the current government want, and that will not be representative of what the 52% wanted.

It may well be that parliament fails to agree a workable strategy, but does that mean it can simply be bypassed?

I think we then have to fall back on ancient statute, and it then has to be settled by jousting

Trail by Combat!

Perhaps Enola's cunning plan is to have us thrown out of the EU for breach of its core values.

It may well be that parliament fails to agree a workable strategy, but does that mean it can simply be bypassed?

No the CoJ have explained why

Can we set a precedent whereby a government's self imposed problems can be solved simply through bypassing the democratic process?

There was a vote!! Ok CMD started this but the country lapped it up.

The democratic process will be respected by passing the AoP and allowing A50 to be triggered. The delay helps no one. We have to start negotiating and soon - this absurdity is going to go on too long as it is.

Trail by Combat

Gove or Farage and I'll happily take up cudgels. In a properly organised contest of course - no random violence please.

I'll have a go at Jousting her champion
[img] [/img]

There was a vote!!

Yes, but our 'democratic process' is not to simply have referenda on anything really complex and difficult and blindly follow the result.

😯 really???

This is sounding more and more like - we, the "chosen we", dont like what the great unwashed have said, so we will ignore/frustrate them

We have GE when people dont understand the issues but we accept that - and remember all the BS with the Scottish referendum?

People have a right to vote however ill-informed they may be. That's how it works - yes it flawed - but its better than the alternative. We even have one version here, actually in its second iteration now, which proves this point very well. We dont silence the ignorant in this country.

mike: that's not a joust. That's a Piñata 😀

[quote=teamhurtmore ]This is sounding more and more like - we, the "chosen we", dont like what the great unwashed have said, so we will ignore/frustrate them

You write that like it's a bad thing.

We have GE when people dont understand the issues but we accept that

We've done this one (multiple times) with a GE we might get 5 years of shit (though actually nothing close to the scale of change precipitated by this vote), but it's not even the case that the people get 5 years to recognise they've got it wrong - governments don't tend to do really mad things because they know they'll get found out. There is not chance to throw out leaving the EU, so they (think they) can get away with anything.

That's how it works - yes it flawed - but its better than the alternative. We even have one version here, actually in its second iteration now, which proves this point very well.

You're thinking of parliamentary democracy? Yes that works - for a limited definition of "works" (clearly there are ways to improve it a lot, but let's not get into that here). I don't see how that provides any evidence that direct democracy is a good thing, and recent evidence suggests the complete opposite - all sorts of alternatives to that which are clearly better.

We dont silent the ignorant.

No - preferably you provide them with something else to vote on where their ignorance does no harm. I'm a big fan of XF, BGT, SCD for that purpose.

I'm sure I'm coming across as arrogant and elitist in this post - but in my defence they started it.

We have GE when people dont understand the issues but we accept that

Yes, but you're voting for representatives, not a specific action.

People have a right to vote however ill-informed they may be.

Hang on - are you advocating direct democracy instead of representative?

We dont silence the ignorant in this country.

Problem is we don't appear to educate them either. They become a political tool rather than citizens.

We dont silence the ignorant in this country.

Given the present situation, I think its about time we started. We can begin with Iain Duncan Smith and some duct tape

Just because people exist, does not mean they should be put in charge of the country. Sorry, that's just stupid.

By all means have referenda to gague opinion on certain issues, then act appropriately. But you have to ask the right questions.

You write that like it's a bad thing.

It is - its undemocratic

No - preferably you provide them with something else to vote on where their ignorance does no harm.

Until they come up with the "correct" answer.

"Wow", and not in a good way!! Im dead against Brexshit but that is subordinate to protecting the democratic process. The latter is even more important

"This is sounding more and more like - we, the "chosen we", dont like what the great unwashed have said, so we will ignore/frustrate them"

It was looking that way from 7am on the morning of the result. Backtracking all round.

The Establishment have probably called this right.

We won't leave unless the likely fall out of leaving is less than the fall out of ignoring the 4pc spread in the referendum. (Whatever leaving means.)

Just because people exist, does not mean they should be put in charge of the country. Sorry, that's just stupid.

Thats no way to talk about HM Opposition.

The right question?? The last one was hardly difficult mol.

This is sounding more and more like - we, the "chosen we", dont like what the great unwashed have said, so we will ignore/frustrate them

THM let the 3 Brexiteers put their case to the parliament. I think when they do the only ones protesting will be Jamby/Chewkw and the EDL

THM - in the scheme of things GE's don't really matter. I do however object to the 'great unwashed' (your words) being able to take away personal rights and freedoms that I hold dear based on the b***sh** lies of the likes of Farage, Gove, Johnson et al who won't be affected anyway and who have their own very dubious agenda's to follow. Hitler was voted into power on the back of a democratic election and look how well that ended. As someone else has pointed don't confuse democracy with ochlocracy. Do none of you Brexiteers read or understand history though possibly not in this post truth world - you'll be telling us that the Terror was a proper and valid expression of the democratic will of the sans culottes next.

The democratic process will be respected by passing the AoP and allowing A50 to be triggered.

Nipper - I am against Brexshit. Always have been.

So Mike what exactly do you want the nutters to put before the house. This is the start of a negotiation process. The great washed in the house, know the range of options and there strengths and weaknesses. We do not have the luxury of an a la carte menu to chose from in advance. In contrast, we have to placate and negotiate with 27 parties who we have pissed off and insulted.

Its a fantasy to believe that we will have a sensible further debate - just look at the last few days....

But she who must be obeyed wanted to bypass Parliament. How else does an Act get passes?

Yes and she has had her wrists slapped. We know that. Move on.

THM - in the scheme of things GE's don't really matter.

We really have entered a screwed up world!!!!

Did I miss the invite to the mass piss-up? 😉

So Mike what exactly do you want the nutters to put before the house.

I can't see how the Outters are all upset about the vote.
We are all going to get steak it's just we get to choose how it's cooked.
Stop ****ing moaning . You "won" .

[quote=teamhurtmore ]It is - its undemocratic

Democracy is the means, not the end. The ultimate objective is to make people's lives better, and actually the things which matter to people are food, shelter, warmth, friends, family... Getting what you voted for in an abstract way is way down that list.

And as for Enola and her comments on the freedom of the press - the Brexopaths have falsely called fire and substitute congress for parliament:

The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic. [...] The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent.

Remind me, is he blocking or not? 😉

Sounds like he basically wants the status quo (not an unreasonable position) but that is not what was voted for, so rather disingenuous.

Sounds like he basically wants the status quo (not an unreasonable position) but that is not what was voted for, so rather disingenuous.

teamhurtmore » It is - its undemocratic

5 minutes listening to the regulars in my local would soon put you straight on allowing 'the people' to decide anything

Getting what you voted for in an abstract way is way down that list.

😯 How abstract is the majority saying that they do not want to be part of the EU? Seems pretty real to me.

(Mistakenly) this is what the "Great" British public want and this is what they are going to get.

Just because we dont like the result doesnt meant that we abandon the principles that make us stronger.

"At the moment I'll take Corbyns 4 lines"

All of which can be achieved without any negotiation at all.

Although on workers rights, how would you determine if our rights slipped behind in future - it's a bit subjective.

OK - I am on the losing side here 😀

Totalitarianism Rules OK

Are we going to allow Etonions and redheads to vote in future? 😉

5 minutes l[s]istening to the regulars in my local[/s] on the indy threads would soon put you straight on allowing 'the people' to decide anything

FTFY - I am now getting what you mean though. Not a bad plan after all!!! 😉