[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

It would be pretty pompous of him to decide what's "best for his constituents" when they voted so clearly for Leave

Yet that is essentially what representative democracy is about. Representing your constituents best interests in the long term rather than whoever shouts the loudest. Just because they have the loudest voice doesn't mean they are automatically right.

Kind of "a daddy knows best" approach. Like when you voted leave, against what your kids stated as their desires and in their best interests.

I do hope Enola May doesn't get the a particularly nasty case of the runs on her trip to India.

and to be very clear, this part of law is the one about respecting the sovereignty of UK parliament against the will of what a person wants. When a government decides it wants to and not follow the due process of parliament it is a very worrying state of affairs.
This is one of the key points that leavers kept rambling on about and as soon as it doesn't agree with you it's wrong.

I bet most of the public want taxes abolished or cut severly - doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do...

Like when you voted leave, against what your kids stated as their desires and in their best interests.

I bet that any parents that voted leave did so as they believed it was in the best interests of their children - and if the children were old enough to vote but didn't then 'parent knows best' is clearly true.

I bet most of the public want taxes abolished or cut severly - doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do...

This is more inteesting for fhe next 10-20 mins (or possibly the whole of the next 3 months) - start of the Vendee Globe 12.02pm

Gina Miller demonstrated this morning the absolute lack of any form of suitable governance in respect to Brexit by Farage or any other Tory Brexiteers- she laid bare in simple language the absolute inadequacy of these people to actually do any thing other than shout.

[img] [/img]

Wonder how the working poor and pensioner Brexiteers are feeling at the moment - fuel prices up, food and clothes prices, up triple lock on way out, benefit cuts - brace yourselves poor people lot more coming...

They voted for it

Law is subject to interpretation that's why we have courts and an appeal process

These were not just your ordinary High Court justiciary but the Lord Chief Justice, the most senior judge in E&W, the Master of the Roles who is the second most senior judge in E&W and the presiding judge of the civil division of the Court of Appeal whilst Lord Justice Sales is a Court of Appeal justice of some standing. I would be surprised if the Supreme Court did otherwise than affirm the findings of the QBD but in substantially more detail. Given the importance of the matter of the appeal to the Supreme Court is why all 11 justices will be sitting including those from NI and Scotland and hopefully the devolved governments in those countries will join in as interested parties.

Every pound my bank balance loses I get a million pound in my FREEDOM bank.

Wales have already said they would support G Miller. Scotland will probably too.

Well Zippykona money's not important...
Until you have **** all...
Then it's very important as the freedom bank becomes the food bank in your life...

Oh and guess who funds food banks...
Yep sympathetic guilty middle class folk (among others) except their sympathy is diminishing.

i wonder how Ed would vote ?

"72% of your constituents voted to leave"

I'm willing to bet that that is not actually true, and that it's another example of Jambaliar saying or repeating something that doesn't pass the common sense test - in fact that fails the common sense test so blatantly that it can only be a deliberate falsehood.

Corbyn says his SUPPORT for A50 is UNCONDITIONAL - Captain Chaos is alive and well 😀

http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-jeremy-corbyn-says-labour-could-block-article-50-10647341

But this morning a source close to Mr Corbyn told Sky News Labour's support for triggering Article 50 - the starting gun for leaving the EU - was "unconditional".

it's an wxample of how we do not have control of our own law making

But the ECJ is our court. We're European.

Unless you are saying the fact there are foreigners involved makes it somehow worse?

A lot of Brexit arguments only make sense if you draw a line between the British and other people in Europe.

Still waiting for Jamba and Co. to give us their opinion of what position the UK will be in once the 2 years is up...

Still waiting for Jamba and Co. to give us their opinion of what position the UK will be in once the 2 years is up

Listening to the absolutely vile little creep IDS on the Five Live this morning, he seemed to be saying that "we demand the return of British sovereignty, unless we don't like what it comes up with, in which case we reserve the right to over-rule the judiciary, because... well.... just because!"

Well, yes, you disgusting little man .... As [url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/06/high-court-ruling-brexit-not-sabotaging-parliamentary-democracy-best-deal-britain ]this points out[/url].... there's a name for governments who think they can do that. They're called dictatorships

I'm not so sure about Farage's call to protest. It's getting a bit chilly outside, and we know that winter is dangerous for the elderly.

Probably best to stay indoors with a nice cup of tea and the Daily Mail.

Speech by Lord Lawson

I wonder if the large number of alienated people are the same as those who voted to leave the EU? I would imagine they are and if so, it's a vote for more of the same.

EDIT - Hmm. Linky not worky. But it does if you copy and paste it into the address bar.

At least brexishambles is serving as a warning to other EU countries that leaving is a stupid idea that will leave you the worlds laughing stock as the PM tries to take her own parliament to court 😳

(at least until america out stupids us by voting trump in!)

This mornings Andrew Marr show is on iPlayer.

Worth a watch, especially the bit where Farage basically says "we don't need MP's"...

Facist.

Although if/when we leave can we make sure that we pay no UKIP MEP's either their loss-of-office settlement nor their pensions - they wouldn't want to take money from something they thought wrong would they?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/27/meps-final-payoff-157000

@slowoldman, what you mean by that comment. You suggest that guilty mild class folk like you will stop giving cause some hungry poor people have a different opinion to you?

In a free Youkshire you'd fit right in. Nowt free a lad, unless there somat in it for me.

@slow - you can only post youtube and vimeo links with the Video button and also generally its best to remove the s from https

Not much in the way of a responce to my post that Corbyn's support for A50 is unconditional ? He's been anti EU for decades

Still waiting for Jamba and Co. to give us their opinion of what position the UK will be in once the 2 years is up...

Have posted numerous times that we will be in much getter shape outside the EU than in in 5 and 10 years. 2 years is a short time frame and depends a lot on whether Greece has defaulted by then and whether the euro still exists in form we know it now. If Europe has collapsed economically we will be worse off than now but still better than had we stayed in. Postive impacts of lower currency on trade deficit and UK manufacturing ?

You suggest that guilty mild class folk like you will stop giving cause some hungry poor people have a different opinion to you?

@slow - you can only post youtube and vimeo links with the Video button and also generally its best to remove the s from https

Not much in the way of a responce to my post that Corbyn's support for A50 is unconditional ?

Probably because anything that comes out of the Murdoch press doesn't warrant one.

Jamba 'cos we prefer the direct quotes from the man himself?

Have posted numerous times that we will be in much getter shape outside the EU than in in 5 and 10 years.

Yes - and its just your opinion with nothing to back it up and one at odds with just about everyone who knows anything about this including the UK government

Postive impacts of lower currency on trade deficit and UK manufacturing ?

@oldman, I was just try to understand why you said guilty middle classes had diminishing sympathies with those using food banks?

If you could explain that would be helpful. After all you may not be a miserable tight arse who knows the cost of everything and value of nowt, if that were the case Yorkshire not for thee. Free Yorkshire (an it better be cheap).

@oldman, I was just try to understand why you said guilty middle classes had diminishing sympathies with those using food banks?

One explanation, look at education and attainment, income, tax etc etc and compare to brexit.

The more you had the more likely it was you voted to stay, and the less you had the more likely to vote out.

So those who paid in have been shafted by those who took out. And then you get comments from wales and cornwall asking for payments to continue after they shafted the tax payers.

I can see why their might be a lack of sympathy.

All of this fails to deal with the real issue, but then the establishment has always been expert at diverting blame from themselves.

jambalaya - Member
Not much in the way of a responce to my post that Corbyn's support for A50 is unconditional ? He's been anti EU for decades

Because the article you posted undermines your comment perhaps.

Corbyn says one thing, sources unnamed say he thinks something else.

Nowt to see, move on.

Jamba 'cos we prefer the direct quotes from the man himself?

Yup, like triggering A50 immediately after the Referendum. Sadly you can't read the pages and pages of anti-EU blogs on his website as he deleted them 🙂

Economic predictions: Let's go with the IMF then, UK highest predicted growth of the G7 even taking into account Brexit. IMF admission they "overestimated" (ie wildly exaggereated) the negative impact of a Leave vote.

Kind of feeling sorry for Nigel Farage - when he realised on that Andrew Marr piece that he wasn't getting anywhere he just looked like a bit sad like he wanted his mummy...

And now he realises things aren't going his way he's making suggestive comments about violence (intelligently knowing he can use plausible deniability if anything actually happens).

Does he honestly thing people like my parents are going to take to the streets? They're in their late 70s and can't do anything much for very long before they need rest and want to sit down for a cup of tea and to read the paper 🙂 The only thing they've ever used a milk bottle for is to make the tea - not Molotov cocktails!

Desperate stuff on his part... and he wouldn't be trying stuff like that if he thought he was winning.

A few people have asked where Spitting Image is these days but I'd like to see Monty Python or Ben Elton/Richard Curtis having a go - it'd be hilarious

I'll watch Marr later. Things are going 95% Farage's way. It would have been 100% had we triggered A50 immediately as recommended by Corbyn.

"It would have been 100% had we triggered A50 immediately as recommended by Corbyn."

Or just done what Lawson and Owen advocated at the time...

Things are going 95% Farage's way. I

Balls! hes still not got his foot in the door at Westminster, there's still lots of brown folk and foreigners in Britain, hrs not been allowed anywhere near the A50 negotiations, UKIP have turned on themselves and much to his annoyance hes still regarded as a racist demagogue cockwomble by at least 48% of the population
He obviously doesn't understand how British law works and is reduced to making veiled incitement to riot because he thinks things night not go his way.
I'd say 50% at best- he's now the bonfifide hero of little Englanders everywhere and he's managed to utterly humiliate David Cameron

@oldman, I was just try to understand why you said guilty middle classes had diminishing sympathies with those using food banks?

Watson now also saying Labour would not block A50

"We think the referendum was very clear and Article 50 will be triggered when it's brought to Parliament. We've got a lot to say, but ultimately when the vote comes Labour will support Theresa May to trigger Article 50.”

"We are very, very clear we will trigger Article 50 when it comes to Parliament, so there is no need for people to be in any doubt about that."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-labour-position-tom-watson-article-50-brexit-a7400976.html

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37889197 ]enola comments on high court [/url]

Not much detail yet but will be interesting to see whether it is acceptance of the ruling or more being a sore loser.....

Has anyone managed to ask May why she fears a parliamentary vote?

[i]Yes - and its just your opinion with nothing to back it up and one at odds with just about everyone who knows anything about this including the UK government[/i]

Agree, he hasn't even managed to state the position of foreigners (like his wife and kids) in his New Britain.

And has anyone worked out how they'll issue these new passports, in a mass rush (while the UK may accept our current EU passports, no one else will) - and who's paying for it?

"Has anyone managed to ask May why she fears a parliamentary vote?"

I doubt she is. She's probably looking for an excuse not to do it or to delay it into the long grass and this is one more reason.

Her position of remainer reluctantly delivering Brexit is quite a luxurious position to be in.

Of all the ways to describe May's approach to Brexit "reluctant" would be a long way down the list.....

Assuming she ever was a remainder she is now a fervent and evangelical leaver.

Well apart from the 'brexit means brexit' sound bites, there not much evidence of enthusiasm for the whole shebang.

[quote="P-Jay"]

Has anyone managed to ask May why she fears a parliamentary vote?

I don't think its the vote she fears - its the parliamentarty scruitiny which will show just how clueless and willfully blind the tories are on this.

she is also the home secretary who failed to cut immigration.

is she going to get the red bus out of retirement and park it in the Commons ?

Oldmanmtb is the potential Yorkshireman. Guilty of guiltily being middle class and running out of sympathy for those food bank users who don't share his view.

She repeated again today that immigration is her red line

I think the people spoke on the 23 June and I think it was an important aspect that underpinned people’s approach to that was a concern they had about control of movement of people from the EU into the UK

of course she cant now say it was about sovriegnity of British courts, because all of a sudden the courts are wrong and shes right, she also might have to rely on the ECJ, whose influence she had previously said she wanted to reduce,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36128318
(shes obviously not a fan of european courts especially after her humiliating, mishandling Abu Qutada deportation case
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/9215451/Qatada-free-in-days-after-May-got-the-date-wrong.html)

Its one of the fundamental flaws of the referendum & brexishambles,
- What is the red line for the negotiations?
Is it about leaving the single market, stopping immigration, supremacy of british courts, our 350m we could be spending on the NHS 😉 , people voted as they did for many reasons and its why parliament needs a say in how the negotiations proceed, the obvious worry for the brexiters is that so many of their claims dont stand up to serious scrutiny

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/06/birds-eye-walkers-supermarkets-price-rise-brexit-vote-pound ]https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/06/birds-eye-walkers-supermarkets-price-rise-brexit-vote-pound[/url]

and the next round of increases begins.

Well apart from the 'brexit means brexit' sound bites, there not much evidence of enthusiasm for the whole shebang.

I'm hoping... that her whole approach of combining apparent incompetence with hard right dogma is a deliberate (whilst being plausibly deniable) strategy to get the more moderate ie most voters who voted Leave to reconsider.

We're not a country that's comfortable with extreme politics - we're one of the few European countries that didn't have a Fascist head of state (or collaboration in respect of France) in the 30s - Far Right politics just doesn't sit comfortably with us.

So, dropping the economy into a recession, along with inflation, discouraging foreign investment with some anti-foreigner rhetoric, sling around a few Far Right words and let Farage get over-confident and start threatening violence... and hopefully you'll see a big swing of regret come through, pressure for another referendum or general election from the very people who voted out... and there you have it. This last bit is really important - the failure to leave isn't imposed on those who voted out - rather they choose to change their minds. Farage will rant and rave as is his temperament but he won't actually be able to rabble rouse and do anything substantial as the reversal will be 'the will of the people'...

A damn risky strategy which may or may not be controllable but although she had a rather autocratic reputation as Home Secretary I believe her reputation was one of competence... which seems entirely at odds with her current stance.

I know it sounds hopelessly optimistic but of the few people I know who voted out - my parents being the main ones - whilst they have their faults, they're not people who show any signs of supporting the kind of rhetoric that's been coming from May, Rudd and the nastier side of the British press and I don't think they voted for what we're seeing now... my Mum was showing some remorse even in the weeks after the vote, let alone before this week's fun and games... therefore, if you make them think they've turned the country Fascist, they'll be appalled at what they've done and change their minds.

[url= http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/bulletins/birthsummarytablesenglandandwales/2015-07-15 ]http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/bulletins/birthsummarytablesenglandandwales/2015-07-15[/url]

however you spin it the UK has a problem. IF we don't have immigration we won't have workers to pay pensions and provide care. The current birthrate is below replacement, look at Japan to see how this pans out.

Mt I don't donate to food banks although my business is very generous in other charitable directions. My observation is an observation based upon what I hear in my local upper middle class pub - which contains an eclectic combination of both sides of the fence I can see the tolerant/caring approach of some of these fairly reasonable people rapidly disappearing and thats not good.

Have posted numerous times that we will be in much getter shape outside the EU than in in 5 and 10 years.

You have, but you've not really explained why, and how we can replace the benefits we get from the single market.

Re immigration again. If people are 'concerned' anout it, then the government should have done something to make it less of a problem, not just try and reduce numbers.

How few is enough to satisfy the people of wherever is complaining about it? We going to let them set quotas now?

So if May is sticking to "immigration is a red line" then bang goes tarrif free access to the EU. the two are inseparable and the EU have made that 100% clear. NO swiss model, no norway option

So if May is sticking to "immigration is a red line" then bang goes tarrif free access to the EU. the two are inseparable and the EU have made that 100% clear. NO swiss model, no norway option

has to be why they are appealing to the supreme court, don't think they'll get approval for hard brexit through the commons.

If there was a general election tomorrow, I would vote Labour. For the first time in my voting life. Can't the Labour Party please stop disappearing up its own arse and get its act together so more will follow? We have to end this descent into right wing divisiveness now.

It's been alluded to before, May is doing as predicted, creating a car crash so she can't be blamed.

Same thing Cameron did, but on a bigger scale, when it all goes tits up, she'll be no where to be seen.

Nice to see Gina Miller wiping the floor with Farige this morning

So I watched Andrew Marr. Farage and Milled had a very constructive two way discussion - Marr even said the best bit of the programme took place without his input 🙂 Many Leavers, myself included pointed out right at the beginning that the Referendum was advisory - Farage has said so many times too. There was no "admission". May and the Government have taken the advice of the electorate and are getting on with the job of leaving the EU. As for enthusiasm I would have gone A50 sooner but I do see the logic of waiting a bit for preparation and to ensure the process overlaps the French and German post election period longer.

What May has actually said is the ability to control immigration, that gives her quite a lot of wiggle room. You can control it by no access to in work benefits, forcing UK employers to demonstrate required skills don't exist etc. All horsesh.t imo but wiggle room she has. Also the EU has created a political link between THE single market and freedom of movement, under enough pressure (like a eurozone meltdown) they'll budge, we've already had politicians and advisors in France and Germany calling for a deal acceptable to the UK to be done. Also we don't need access to THE single market - an alternative tariff free subset is do-able.

If there was a general election tomorrow, I would vote Labour.

That's why there won't be one, if you are in Government why would ypu take that risk whatever the opinion polls say about Corbyn. Most likely more Remainers would tactically vote Labour/Lib Dem than Leavers would tactically vote Tory. All this plus we have fixed term Parliaments so an early eelction effectively has to be called via the opposition and a vote of no confidence.

I'm caught between thinking May is a car crash of a PM who has difficulty working out what is going on, or perhaps a twisted genius interested in nothing other than her own power and glory (and ensuring it by making sure she has both populist support and someone to blame in whichever direction the eventual car crash happens).

Either way her administration is going to prove bad for Britain unless it is reigned in quickly by a strong parliament.

And I am coming to the conclusion that an early GE is one thing she fears - because then parliament whatever its views on Brexit would have a clear mandate to express them, rather than the question Jamba posed earlier on whethet remain MPs who want to construct a stronger better Britain in a strong Europe should vote to destroy.

Farage of course is an embarrassment and Britain will be stronger once we find somewhere to deport him to.

Sadly, the former.

May and the Government have taken the advice of the electorate

Am I right in saying that there can't be a general election unless all MPs vote in a motion of no confidence in the PM? So basically there won't be an early general election, unless Mrs May really starts to **** things up.

and Farage had to back down against g miller . he knew she won the first round and he wasn't that stupid to go and have another go at the judges .
his threat of violence is quite pathetic .
considering he only has 1 mp , a party in turmoil and been told he will have no say in brexit negociations , violence is probably his only hope .

May is a car crash of a PM who has difficulty working out what is going on, [s]or perhaps a twisted genius[/s] interested in nothing other than her own power and glory

See also: rabbit in the headlights of populist opinion.

Am I right in saying that there can't be a general election unless all MPs vote in a motion of no confidence in the PM? So basically there won't be an early general election, unless Mrs May really starts to **** things up.

not all, but basically your right.

igm you can use whatever you like, Andy or J ?

There other alternative's for May, like she is a very astute politician who is trying to plot a middle way having been dropped in it by Cameron and Osbourne who had only "planned" for one outcome. The longer she waits the more information she has and the closer she gets to French and German elections and a (potential / certain ) eurozone crises ... the next EU elections are May 2019 so latest A50 is May 2017 as it would be totally daft to have such elections here. April/May are French Presidentail elections so March means the A50 "news" doesn't interfere with their election any more than it has to. Boris/Fox/Davies and hard Brexit rhetoric pleases Leavers. Had she softened the stance Leavers would be against her and many Remainers too as they don't accept the result.

All in all she is playing a blinder given the mess that was left for her

All in all she is playing a blinder given the mess that was left for her

if she didnt have such a shambolic record as home secretary that might be more believable

Im sure shes trying her best
but her comments attacking carney, pushing hard brexit, Rudd's ill fated name and shame foreigners list etc from the conference were ill judged and she was immediately forced into backtracking on all of those as it worsened our ongoing currency crisis and sent jitters through the automotive industry and foreign investors.
and then recently her ill advised attempt to bypass parliament and then not defending the judiciary shes still showing poor judgement.

shes in a very tough position and no one could expect her to put every foot right, but you'd have to be pretty blinkered to say shes playing a blinder

All in all she is playing a blinder given the mess that was left for her

Ohhhhhh...

Jambas got a crush on Theresa!!!

kimbers - Member

if she didnt have such a shambolic record as home secretary that might be more believable

Yup. Thing is, she's playing the [i]game [/i]well. But playing games is the difference between good politicians and good governments. Win or lose, it's still pissing about. Putting the three stooges in charge of brexit was awesome gameplaying and disastrous government.

Comes a point where [i]maybe[/i] we should put all these great gameplayers in charge of World of Warcraft clans or something, rather than countries.

One thing I really can't grasp here. May is an intelligent woman and altho I disagree with her greatly a decent political operator. Why did she take on the leadership? she must know its going to end in a shambles and a very poor outcome for the country. Was it to stop Johnson? Settle political scores? Did she really think she will come out of this with any credit?

I really don't understand it.

Power. It's the top job. The one that all politicians have dreamt of since that first heady taste of victory at the school debating society.

Of course there is a problem with the time window. Must be finished by spring 2020 at the latest.

Otherwise it won't happen