[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Chewkw - The government are not in charge - they are simply the executive, the day to day managers. This is a parliamentary democracy and parliament are sovereign. All that has happened is that the quiet coup planned by Theresa's executive, has been put back in its box and democracy has been restored. Now stop whining.

Point of order, cody, my neighbour speaks Chinese and got a vote (because he's Malaysian strangely enough)

codybrennan - Member
chewkw, a question for you. Very simple one.
How does a Chinese-speaking bureaucrat, non-native, non-resident, non-EU, get to vote in UK referenda?
If you're attached to the Embassy, you don't have this privilege. How then?

Because he's the most blatant troll possible and his many previous forum IDs have all been banned...

codybrennan - Member
chewkw, a question for you. Very simple one.

How does a Chinese-speaking bureaucrat, non-native, non-resident, non-EU, get to vote in UK referenda?

If you're attached to the Embassy, you don't have this privilege. How then?

A bureaucrat that knows the system can navigate through all bureaucratic systems.

Hence, I can see EU bureaucratic system clearer than you lot and the way they tighten the noose on you lot you have not seen anything yet.

igm - Member
This is a parliamentary democracy and parliament are sovereign.

Is chewkw actually jambalaya? If not, he's obviously hailing from some parallel reality where everyone is super rich, and if they lose thier jobs, it doesn't matter as they were only doing them to appear productive?

Point of order: engaging with him is futile

I find the fact so many of you still try stranger than his posts

The perogative powers of the Crown are unaffected, and have just been clarified as what most people already thought them to be. The government has no duty to try expanding them beyond what is customarily accepted, whatever drivel IDS might be spouting.

The question there is whether something makes the EU treaties different from other treaties, which do fall under the prerogative

Clearly this court found that there was

The Supreme Court may well agree, or not.

Except, as pointed out, we can't negotiate till after A50 - so the govt need room to negotiate, which the MPs will have to give them

You can repeat this as many times as you like, it doesn't mean a negotiating position can't be set out, either by the government, or the HoC. Or do you think they should go into negotiations with no idea what they want and no aims?

Hang on, if you want full flexibility of outcomes, then one possible outcome springs to mind that you may not have considered...

The question there is whether something makes the EU treaties different from other treaties, which do fall under the prerogative

[b]What was the legal basis that swayed the decision?[/b]
Legal affairs commentator Joshua Rozenberg said the decision had been based on the argument the government could not use its executive powers because it would mean effectively overturning an act of Parliament.
Triggering Article 50 would eventually lead to the UK leaving the EU, which effectively takes away rights granted by Parliament, such as the right to free movement in Europe.
The High Court ruling effectively defined the limits of government power by reiterating that Parliament is sovereign - it can create laws and only Parliament can take them away.

Gentle nudge

govt are duty bound to protect the perogative powers of the Crown

are they - is there a parliamentary act that demands they do this
IS this true? Genuine q btw
you can usually find a good source so what have you got?

There is no negotiation position- we (primarily the English) have shown our true colour's by...

Oi! Don't forget the Welsh. Racist.

The question there is whether something makes the EU treaties different from other treaties, which do fall under the prerogative

Which other treaties have an Act of Parliament behind them? I'll make this simple for you - the HC has simply confirmed the well understood principle that the royal perogative can't be used to overrule an Act of Parliament. ISTR we chopped the head off the last bloke who tried, so Theresa should count herself lucky.

mattyfez - Member
Is chewkw actually jambalaya? If not, he's obviously hailing from some parallel reality where everyone is super rich, and if they lose thier jobs, it doesn't matter as they were only doing them to appear productive?

Are you lot remainders having some sort of crocodile tears? I think that's the correct description - pretending to be loosing but quietly confident?

"A50 shouldn't be cast until we know exactly what Brexit involves, and the answer will remain we won't know because we can't negotiate till after A50 is issued."

That little impasse may save May from having to do it. The MPs can reasonably refuse to vote in favour without more detail, but more detail is in the gift of 27 other nations.

It's all perfectly fudgable and if it isn't considered important enough to backtrack out of clearly it's not likely to be that damaging in the opinion of the establishment.

Ok so lets say that the HoP says you can only negotiate on the basis of XYZ, then the EU says no you can only have Z and then we compromise on YZ. Would we be able to proceed?

Or is the HoP going to say, you, the people can have what you want but only on the terms that we decide. And since we have determined that it's XYZ or nothing, it's tough shit guys, it no deal....

@Junky

it said nothing at all about treaties it spoke only of acts of parliaments that give us rights

You mean apart from paragraph 30?

[i]30. Another settled feature of UK constitutional law is that, as a general rule applicable in normal circumstances, the conduct of international relations and the making and unmaking of treaties on behalf of the United Kingdom are regarded as matters for the Crown in the exercise of its prerogative powers.[/i]

Along with para 31, 32 and 33?

If you've read the ruling in that detail, why are you being so dim? "in normal circumstances"

In what way do you think this ruling affects the royal perogative in any way in which it has previously been used? This ruling simply puts May back in her box, and clarifies that she can't do something completely new with it.

Why do people on here converse with Junkyard..... You do realise he's been banned from loads of forums for arguing???

THM - every negotiating team has limits on its authority. Parliament says XYZ, EU says X, but not YZ, and if there's an impasse the negotiating team has to return to base for discussions. Maybe parliament softens its stance maybe not.

Ok, point taken.. I'll not give the troll any more food.

Back on topic, I'm actually Welsh, but have lived in england since I was a tot..I've always thought of myself as a british/eu citizen.. but some of the bile that's surfacing at the moment, I'd be happy to renounce my british citizenship in order to retain my EU status.

can you confirm your initial statement - duty bound re royal prerogative- was correct before we get on to your next failure with facts ?

bloodynora - Member
Why do people on here converse with Junkyard..... You do realise he's been banned from loads of forums for arguing??

Cos its STW.....obvs.

And Junky's ok.

[quote=bloodynora ]Why do people on here converse with Junkyard..... You do realise he's been banned from loads of forums for arguing???

This is still a lie, no matter how many times you say it, as I dont even frequent other forums. I say this every time you bring up this same lie but it seems to not deter you from saying it.
FWIW i am happy if you follow your own advice 😉

And he's good at scrabble.

Junky is a good guy.

Why do people on here converse with Junkyard..... You do realise he's been banned from loads of forums for arguing???

The same junkyard that sent me some gear shifters but ignored my email request asking how I can pay him... what an arsehole. He's alright by me.

Why do people on here converse with Junkyard..... You do realise he's been banned from loads of forums for arguing???

What on earth are you on about? It's certainly an interesting point to make as what appears to be your first contribution to this thread, and first post in months.

Though I'm not sure why I'm conversing with you...

"Ok so lets say that the HoP says you can only negotiate on the basis of XYZ, then the EU says no you can only have Z and then we compromise on YZ. Would we be able to proceed?
Or is the HoP going to say, you, the people can have what you want but only on the terms that we decide. And since we have determined that it's XYZ or nothing, it's tough shit guys, it no deal...."

If the establishment don't want to do it the terms were offered being deemed completely unacceptable seems as good an excuse as any. Personally I can't see how an organisation with a history for lengthy inconclusive trade deals is going to come up with a coherent agreement in 2 years. Feels to me like the only way out is stop paying, stop attending the meetings, change our law, and start collecting import tariffs. The EU will work out we've left soon enough.

If the EU help us to leave promptly in 2 years with a good deal before long there will be no EU.

as I dont even frequent other forums.

Cos you're banned?

Btw yes he is a nice guy but I never got those wheels.. what happened into the end?

mattyfez - Member
Back on topic, I'm actually Welsh, but have lived in england since I was a tot..I've always thought of myself as a british/eu citizen.. but some of the bile that's surfacing at the moment, I'd be happy to renounce my british citizenship in order to retain my EU status.

And it's his go . Nudge.

e-mails molly

How can i be banned if i dont frequent other forums? Again I have never posted on another forum.

Its probably fair to say i would run the risk of being banned were I to frequent other ones.

Just joshing.

Anyway. What to brexites make of this, another bregret poll?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-poll-majority-uk-remain-eu-theresa-may-article-50-second-referendum-latest-a7395811.html?cmpid=facebook-post

Surely if the majority really do not want to leave, we MUST NOT trigger A50, by your own logic? If the poll is accurate, how can you ignore it?

[quote=zippykona ]And he's good at scrabble.

But not frequent 😉

I think your feeling is due to class conflict based on my observation of British society. Your class system is still very strong no matter how you try to dismiss them. My leftard colleagues are all very class conscious to the point of instantly creating prejudice and bias when they see a "Tory boy".

There was a bit on a news roport that I caught on the Beeb where the interviewee/reported contributor said that if the court's decision is reversed thet there will be blood on the streets.
Nic bunch, and not the same as the suck it up, buttercup advice given to us remainers.
I just wish that the brexiters could identify what it is that they want and bloody well go for it. All this pissing around is making us a laughing stock.

How can i be banned if i dont frequent other forums? Again I have never posted on another forum.

mattyfez - Member
I've reported this user as a troll as it's getting a bit silly. Hopefully a ban.

My apology to you in the previous response as I did not intend to troll.

It would be very silly of me to do that since I have just returned.

I have refrained from responding to some posters if I feel they can be offended, hence I only response if they are willing to response to me.

I do not know if you are "baiting" me but if you do you have succeeded.

I will let the mod(s) be the judge of my previous response as I sincerely do not intend to offense.

The description of my colleagues are merely for my colleagues where on this forum I have never used them to refer to anyone else STW.

I shall stop responding to you from now on so please do not response to mine in case we miss understand each other..

😆

And from the sublime, to the ridiculous.

BoardinBob - Member

codybrennan - Member
chewkw, a question for you. Very simple one.

Because he's the most blatant troll possible and his many previous forum IDs have all been banned...

So to the shouty leavers can you all write down (or draw if you cant) what brexit means to you. This is the problem and why it needs parliamentary debate. Is it all or nothing, do we want freedom of movement, if we will end up paying the same but having no access is it worth it? If we can't get away from freedom of movement is that acceptable?
This is what needs to be debated and even among the leave mp's I doubt they could agree. Remember all those tory revolts over eu votes on the past?

chewkw is sometimes funny sometimes a bit odd. He is however as far as I can see ( and I must confess I often skip his contributions) not malicious or deliberately baiting of folk like others on here.

Sorry if this has already been covered (I'm only up to page 308), but given it's such a huge decision, the effects of which could last for 100 years or more, why is calling a second referendum such a bad idea?

It's not unfair in the slightest: those who voted to leave can do so again. It might be the same result, but at least we'd be sure...

Best of 7?

why is calling a second referendum such a bad idea?

I'm pretty sure that most who voted to leave want exactly that. Out of the EU completely along with all its agreements and obligations.

I am also sure that most who voted leave simply do not understand the implications

There are no details. It's frankly naive to think that we can lay all our conditions out, have a nice cosy agreement and vote and then trott off to negotiate. We have made a (bad) decision and we have to let our representatives get on with minimising the damage.

what i woulk like to see is the Leave campaign leaders like Gove , IDS etc dragged in front of parliament and made to explain their pledges .

I am also sure that most who voted leave simply do not understand the implications

Few people understand the issue in a GE but we don't stop them having their say. It's bloody patronising to say sorry you don't understand the basics so we are going to ignore you. Ok this might be sensible with yS but even then you have to allow them to exercise their democratic right however barking mad it is.

I don't know many leavers. Most who did, were the next generation up in my family (mid 60s). Almost without exception they have no interest in politics, and feel they were completely carried away by the romance of a dream sold by Boris and Co of getting 'their' country back.

Also, almost without exception, they feel that what they bought into was mostly political posturing, by people who have since disappeared, and if they had their chance again wouldn't vote the same way...

I was pretty incensed by

Your class system is still very strong

I don't want his apology as it would be meaningless. And I hope he learns some humility.

Comparison with a GE doesn't stand up. The decision can be reversed after 5 years. If we leave the EU we are out for good.

I'm pretty sure that most who voted to leave want exactly that. Out of the EU completely along with all its agreements and obligations.

given that its hard to argue all those who voted leave wanted to be fully out when not all of the levers now want that.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-boris-idUKKCN0ZC13W

Boris saying we will keep access after the vote- feel free to check for before as well- its Boris though he has said every position possible on Europe at some point 😉

It's bloody patronising to say sorry you don't understand the basics so we are going to ignore you

I still tend to agree with you and the only legitimate way to NOT do this is to have another vote where they vote stay or we present the deal and ask the people to accept it.
We cannot just pretend it never happened nor can we pretend it was good informed decision nor that we dont know what it means nor that we dont know many leavers have changed their minds since the date.

People may have been hoodwinked by some false pledges on the side of a bus that they know know to be lies and this may be reflected in any new vote.

Ahh... dear old Boris, the bastion of integrity 😳

WHy the leave campaign insisted they would have access to the market post leave and some are still insisting on this

because we import more than we export, so for cars for example our exports may get hit with a tarrif, but so will the people importing to this country - if needed we could surely use this tarrif imbalance to compensate our exporters.

Therefore it is in the interests of many of the companies int he EU to go back to tarrif free trade.

I don't know many leavers. Most who did, were the next generation up in my family (mid 60s).

I've met several young leavers and their reasons were based on their own research, and there are many valid reasons to want to leave the EU - Corbyn until recently used to iterate them for example.

ninfan - Member
The question there is whether something makes the EU treaties different from other treaties, which do fall under the prerogative

Clearly this court found that there was

The Supreme Court may well agree, or not.

Not as simple as that though, is it? This is not just a treaty.

When the treaty was signed, EU laws were adopted into domestic UK law. May has admitted that this is the position, as she proposed 'freezing' law at the point of declaring A50, then working out what we were going to do later, what would stay, what would go.

RP can't be used to overturn domestic law is what the judges are saying, and thats quite correct.

Undoubtedly. Because the leave campaign didn't use any facts, because then they may have lost.

because we import more than we export, so for cars for example our exports may get hit with a tarrif, but so will the people importing to this country

but even cars we export require components and raw materials to be imported here first , so there is no way it is that simple

its also the case that we import more than we export to the EU as a whole, to individual countries in the EU it is completely different and they have to agree to the deal we broker

"WHy the leave campaign insisted they would have access to the market post leave and some are still insisting on this"

Because it's true. EU nations trade with non EU nations all the time. Or do you think China's in the EU?

Nor did remain, and they lost.

I've met several young leavers and their reasons were based on their own research, and there are many valid reasons to want to leave the EU

Why would leavers be against a second referendum? If they value the will of the people so much, then all we'd be doing is getting an up-to-date version of that. They'd have to accept the result.

China is not in the EU , so they pay tarifs or have agreed a trade deal . They dont have access to the single market .

"its also the case that we import more than we export to the EU as a whole, to individual countries in the EU it is completely different and they have to agree to the deal we broker"

Yup, there's sure to be an impasse over loads of issues. The chances of successfully leaving via the Article 50 mechanism are pretty much zero AFAICT. Hard to see any reason why every single EU nation would agree to a great deal to help us leave promptly.

Because it's true. EU nations trade with non EU nations all the time. Or do you think China's in the EU?

Being in the market and trading with the market are not the same thing. It would have helped had you bothered to read the link and understand it.
Clearly no one thinks china is in the EU though some folk seem confused about the difference between trading with and being in a single market with.

The import export deficit is just an abuse of stats

45 % of our trade * and 4 %* of the EU trade is what we are discussing

given this its pretty clear who needs it . Its a deliberately distorted presentation of the facts

* approx there is much arguing over the exact figure but the difference is orders of magnitude

Why would leavers be against a second referendum? If they value the will of the people so much, then all we'd be doing is getting an up-to-date version of that. They'd have to accept the result.

"China is not in the EU , so they pay tarifs or have agreed a trade deal . They dont have access to the single market ."

They're not *in* the single market but they can still sell to EU nations. What do you think access means? Are you seriously claiming that if you pay tarrifs you don't have access to a country? So the UK has no access to the the Argentinian Market because we have to collect tarrifs from them?

Time and time again the EU have made it 100% clear. NO tariff free access to the single market without free movement of people and a contribution to the EU budget.

Why deluded leavers are still claiming that tariff free trade is possible with the EU without free movement of people and contributing to the EU budget.

Several examples on this thread of people with this delusion. ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN

""Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

sorry , meant they dont have FREE access to single market .

We knew it was irreversible and I agree with TJ 😯 Everyone knew what the base case was. So we can't just pretend that didn't happen,

yS produced a whole book of BS rather than just the five core lies of the Brexhsiteers. Would we have said to the Scots, sorry you should have know that yS were lying through their teeth so to pretext you from your very silly decision we are going to ignore it?

Of course not.

[quote=cchris2lou ]what i woulk like to see is the Leave campaign leaders like Gove , IDS etc dragged in front of [s]parliament[/s] an executioner and made to explain their pledges .

Fixed

[quote=teamhurtmore ]I agree with TJ

quoting for those who might not otherwise see it 😉

😉

😆

What do you think access means?

We have access to the EU market china have access to the EU market

Its the same word but it does not mean the same thing

Fallacy of equivocation though in this case i think its you being deliberately obtuse as they never meant access like china when they said as the article i linked to conclusively showed.

the ability, right, or permission to approach, enter, speak with, or use; admittance:

they have the ability we have the right , they argued for the right not the ability. they are still arguing for it.

I dont really understand what the point is you rare trying to make.

I am also sure that most who voted leave simply do not understand the implications

As I tried to explain to some Spanish friends, it's all very embracing.

There is a wonderful irony that mini THM and the editor of The Economist on QT have made that by ensuring that the UK Parliament has taken back control the road to Brexshit has been made far muddier!!

javeed making a clown of himself on QT. This is a technical legal issue, it's not an assault on democracy

[quote=teamhurtmore ]javeed making a clown of himself on QT. This is a technical legal issue, it's not an assault on democracy

+1 - was thinking of posting something very similar

I reckon the audience member talking about parliamentary democracy just now is probably the most intelligent person in the room.