[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

What a kerfuffel.
Especially have to laugh at leavers saying its undemocratic that the high court ruled to uphold democracy.

Those sneaky foreigners will just tunnel underneath it if you do that, BWD

I have minimal doubt that we'll leave, this is a step towards soft brexit. Or Sexit, as I'll be calling it from now on.

BadlyWiredDog - Member 
The sooner we dig a big moat between us and Europe the better.

😀

If only we had had some sort of national opinion poll in which everyone got to decide once and for all

Once and for all? An excellent idea because clearly nobody is ever likely to change their minds, and certainly not within a few months of such a vote. Anyway if a small % did then that wouldn't change the result of a vote with such a clear margin...

OH what fun.

I am loving the leavers moaning about the fact that a British Court has decided on this in line with known British legal and constitutional principles but somehow it is wrong because it didn't go there way.

The twirling as they try to make their ludicrous position look like it makes sense is hilarious.

Thing is, if mp's only accept brexit if we still have single market access, Europe will insist on free movement, so what then?

Ok then we leave, but the only thing that will achieve is less influence in EU, and less control..everything else stays the same?

Spectacular cluster****.

nobody is ever likely to change their minds

This was inevitable but, despite no wanting the result of the vote, I am not comfortable with the MPs ignoring the populus

My prediction is a fudge with another ref vote that is binding

That would be immoral. They're supposed to represent their electorate.

They are supposed to represent the best interests of the electorate. Its not in the best interests of the electorate to jump into the unknown. Neither is it if the governments proposal (if they finally get round to having one) is clearly at odds with what is best for the country.

The small majority voted leave, but it would be hugely irresponsible to do this without having a clear plan of what 'leave' actually means. Or are you suggesting that regardless of the implications, because the largely uninformed public have had their say (on both sides) it doesn't matter what the deal on the table or implications are?

Due diligence in the decision making process is a mainstay of any successful business or organisation. Should the running of the country be any different?

I have minimal doubt that we'll leave, this is a step towards soft brexit. Or Sexit, as I'll be calling it from now on.

😆

Excellent work RichPenny!!!

That is definitely what it's getting called from now on

Those sneaky foreigners will just tunnel underneath it if you do that, BWD

That could never happen. Unless Mexico pays for it of course.

Of course my local MP (lobby fodder, no thinking parts, lack of moral compass) supported leave. His constituency voted remain.
When I suggested that if he were following the will of his people (actually I believe MPs should act in their constituents interests, but hey) he should speak out in favour of remain he claimed there were no figures by constituency.

I must be thick here, because I am lost with the headline and the noise here. As far as I can make out, we have merely seen a ruling on a technicality - you need an Act of P to pass something that effects so many people, even if there is precedent that suggests the opposite. But this makes no difference to the nature of the Brexit - that is something TI be negotiated after A50 has been triggered - as the legal opinion I quoted concluded this is essentially a symbolic gesture.

The fact that Farrage is getting his y-front in a twist seems to be irrelevant

What have I got wrong here?

Exactly, imagine trying to make a business case or get a project approved..

Goal: leave the EU
What's the mandate: there isn't one
What will this accomplish: dunno but some members of staff think it's a good idea
What will it cost: a shed load, it will probably sink the company, best case scenario we'll outsource everything apart from the CEO
How will you implement this: not telling you

Project not approved.

Igm are you epsom? Exactly the same result that I got.
Of course the results are obtainable.

i see why theyr'e dragging putin into this now

how else would you explain away 3 high court judges dying of polonium poisoning

tpbiker - Member
That would be immoral. They're supposed to represent their electorate.
They are supposed to represent the best interests of the electorate......The small majority voted leave

A minority of the electorate voted to leave. Therefore MPs morally should vote to remain

teamhurtmore - Member
I must be thick here, because I am lost with the headline and the noise here.

Basically, the ruling government (the Conservatives) cannot enact Article 50 (which triggers Brexit) without the full approval of parliament. That means that it must have a majority vote in both the House of Commons, and more troublesome for the Brexiteers, the House of Lords in order to leave the EU.

What a fun story to come home from work to.

THM is this your day job? 😀 😀 😀

[url= http://http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/articles/article_50_no_need_for_frothing_and_foaming_the_system_is_working_1_4761442 ]New European Editorial today.[/url]

(My bold)

And in case anyone forgets, and begins [b]to froth and foam [/b] about betrayals of democracy and treachery, it was the Great British public that put this system in place, over the course of centuries.

Let's not forget why we are objecting.
My mother voted out as a Nigerian nurse was apparently rude to one of her friends in hospital.
This level of stupidity and bigotry is unlikely to be a one off.

ZippyK - York

I must be thick here......
What have I got wrong here?

I am sure they will find it rather easy.

It is a first step. That's all. There's a fair way to go yet before we can consign the brexy-boys to history.

But a nice start.

hich means that were the referedum re-run, with exactly the same voters, it'd be a dead heat.

Boris Johnson, "Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success if it". Perhaps worst speech he's ever made

What a knob.

Looks like we have new form of democracy being created by the influencing losing few.

Rejoice! Rejoice! Said the reminders as they put the spanner into the works.

They cannot even believe they have managed to overturn the majority vote with the help of the devil.

Now they are celebrating. Joy they feel! Joy!

The question do they know how to celebrate? Do they?

igm - Member
It is a first step. That's all. There's a fair way to go yet before we can consign the brexy-boys to history.
But a nice start.

Chewk did you /could you vote?

zippykona - Member
Chewk did you /could you vote?

To me I disagree with the EU system.

You wanted UK society to be governed by UK laws, that is what you got today. 3 UK judges applying UK laws.
If you are not happy about it, you can appeal to the European Court.

A government revoking citizenship rights of its citizens is not democracy.

By that rationale, our unelected PM could revoke working time regs and human rights and no one would be able to do a god damn thing about it, it would set a very sinister precident.

cchris2lou - Member
You wanted UK society to be governed by UK laws, that is what you got today. 3 UK judges applying UK laws.

I saw that coming as I mentioned in my previous threads a while back that the devils would appear in the detail.

[b]It is democracy so long as you are a winner.[/b]

If you are not happy about it, you can appeal to the European Court.

We have chosen to leave the EU

The EU won't start any negotiations until A50 is triggered

The Gov thought they could do this by Royal Perogative as was the case with entry

The High Court has decided that this is incorrect and needs a new AoP presumably (I don't know) because there is now an actual Act that affects us all in place

So this is essentially a symbolic issue between the legislature and the executive - the conclusion of the legal opinion I posted earlier.

But it can't change the fact that we now have to trigger A50 even if a minority of us would prefer this not to happen

Which bit of this is wrong?

Boris Johnson, "Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success if it". Perhaps worst speech he's ever made

He also went on to compare himself to the dog that Michael Heseltine strangled. 😯

Top marks to Theresa May though who said:

I feel I just have to make a comment or an intervention on a previous speech:

[b]Boris. The dog was put down... when its master decided it wasn't needed any more![/b]

Ooooft! 😆

[img] [/img]

Which bit of this is wrong?

This bit:

we now have to trigger A50

It is going to be a bigger mess and create more uncertainty. Not good news for businesses planning ahead I would think.

teamhurtmore - Member
Which bit of this is wrong?

cchris2lou - Member
It is going to be a bigger mess and create more uncertainty. Not good news for businesses planning ahead I would think.

Chewk , you got to vote because you are a bureaucrat?
Are you saying that you don't possess a UK passport but you still got to vote?

Which bit of this is wrong?

The comment about HAVING to trigger article 50 is wrong, MP's have been advised to based on what is essentially an opinion poll.

If 51% of your peers said you should cut your own throat, would you? Even if they said it would make everything ok?

zippykona - Member
Chewk , you got to vote because you are a bureaucrat?
Are you saying that you don't possess a UK passport but you still got to vote?

Aracer and Matty thanks - but help me out further please - where have the said this. I have indeed missed the bit which says that we do not have to trigger A50.

thm: I agree with you that this is mostly about correct democratic procedure and (ironically) maintaining the sovereignty of parliament over government.

My hope is that this will force the government to accept proper parliamentary oversight when it is deciding on how we will leave, what terms to offer and what deals to make. Because I don't think that is something that should be done in secret in back rooms with no say from our elected representatives until it is too late.

mattyfez - Member
If 51% of your peers said you should cut your own throat, would you? Even of they said it would make everything ok?

If triggering A50 is now dependant on an AoP, it's possible that no AoP can be agreed.

I've always assumed that chewkw is some sort of SPAMbot/computer programmer's experiment.

Chewk I'm assuming your are one of our commonwealth brothers?

chewkw - Member

I mean are you going to die if we leave EU?

Odds seem good, yes

If 51% of your peers said you should cut your own throat, would you? Even of they said it would make everything ok?

Its not 51% its 36% - a minority lots did not comment on your throat cutting
or were too busy choosing the knife to get to the polling station.

This is what annoys many folks , especially those in the other (similar) minority that voted remain.

I don't need to pretend anything.
I am delighted with today news but also understand that Brexit will still happen but hopefully in a more planned way.

It is going to be a bigger mess and create more uncertainty. Not good news for businesses planning ahead I would think.

+1
While I'm happy about the result, what I foresee is this going to the Supreme Court who will probably uphold the ruling, given the level of criticism the High Court Judges levelled at the idea that the Government could simply trigger A50.

So Parliament then have to debate it which is where things get messy.
Do they go with the public opinion poll which was based on a whole load of lies or do they actually look at the evidence, see the damage caused already and somehow explain to the nation what a complete total disaster the whole thing has been and will be then decide to cancel any notion of leaving?

Frankly, either result will be back to square one - a 50:50 entrenched views argument that will take 10 years to resolve.

What a total mess. 🙁

its says the govt cannot trigger it without parliamentary consent

you know this why are you playing so dumb?

The Gov thought they could do this by Royal Perogative as was the case with entry

You can avail yourself of the facts - or you can carry on with post truth politics as you play dumb

I cannot decide if this posting style is more ninfan or jamby either way you did not use to struggle with facts or play the stupid card

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Communities_Act_1972_(UK)

Agreed

Agreed Graham. RP isnt this merely a technicality. Do you expect that if the givernment presented A50 to the HoP, the the latter would vote it down. That is much more than the technical issue at the start of it.

The decision appeas to focus on the fact that once we entered the situation was covered by an AoP. So to repeal it, needs another AoP. Ok, fair enough, but why would the HoP prevent the democratic process being respected?

That's an odd example for comparison innit? I mean are you going to die if we leave EU?

Quite possibly, I'd lose my job due to cutbacks, and I wouldn't be able to keep paying for my phone or broadband due to the benefit cuts, so getting a new job would be next to impossible.

I'd fall behind on my rent as I have no savings left from the last time I was made redundant, I was out of work for four months and it ruined me financially and destroyed my credit rating, I'd get evicted and wouldn't pass a credit check to rent a 1 bed flat.

I'd end up homeless and hungry, and would quite possibly die as a result.

Hicksy - Member
I've always assumed that chewkw is some sort of SPAMbot/computer programmer's experiment.

zippykona - Member
Chewk I'm assuming your are one of our commonwealth brothers?

Northwind - Member
Odds seem good, yes

cchris2lou - Member
I don't need to pretend anything.
I am delighted with today news but also understand that Brexit will still happen but hopefully in a more planned way.

but why would the HoP prevent the democratic process being respected?

You are really having a bad day arent you 😳

here try reading this link

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37864983

Basic FAQ's with simple and clear answers

Parliament often ignores the will of the people
Death penalty being the most obvious example and fox hunting till they banned it, war in Iraq

Its not hard to think of ones - Original Scottish vote for independence as it did not reach a threshold but was a majority

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37864983

Seems helpful - so this simply reaffirms the power of Parliament but makes bugger all difference in practice to what is going to happen. Why would HoP not pass a bill to trigger A50?

The claim: The High Court ruling that the government cannot use prerogative powers to trigger Article 50 could scupper Brexit.

Reality check verdict: The process of obtaining parliamentary approval may delay or complicate the process but it is hard to imagine that Parliament could ignore the outcome of the referendum.

My point exactly

If we can get a couple of big hitters elected to parliament in by-elections then surely the Brexit Act can be foiled simply by employing that tactic of talking shite without pausing for breath that some MPs seem fond of. Filibustering or whatever.

but makes bugger all difference in practice to what is going to happen

Given the majority of Mps are pro the EU as are the Lords it seems pretty obvious that the chances of A50 being made are considerably reduced.

Parliament can do as it please and i suspect the fudge will be another , legally binding, vote.

Worth factoring in the boundary changes mean a number of MP's are definitely losing their jobs so there is no "electoral demand" on them re the decision.

IMHO it certainly makes passage more difficult and , whilst this ruling remains law, it is o longer a certainty

mattyfez - Member
I'd end up homeless and hungry, and would quite possibly die as a result.

what i would also hope is that by having to present to parliament we get an end to the current bulls**t. What does brexit actually mean?

The executive will be forced to have a plan, and if that plan is damaging to the UK then i would expect it to be thrown out. But if the plan is decent then maybe it will be accepted.

Agreed Graham. RP isnt this merely a technicality. Do you expect that if the givernment presented A50 to the HoP, the the latter would vote it down. That is much more than the technical issue at the start of it.

The decision appeas to focus on the fact that once we entered the situation was covered by an AoP. So to repeal it, needs another AoP. Ok, fair enough, but why would the HoP prevent the democratic process being respected?

I broadly agree with you on this.

Of course the strident remainders will shout from the rooftops that A50 shouldn't be cast until we know exactly what Brexit involves, and the answer will remain we won't know because we can't negotiate till after A50 is issued.

Essentiall, if it goes to a parliamentary vote, then it comes down to how much control Theresa has of the party (in many ways reminiscent of Corbyns recent vote problems)

The government will still have to see through the challenge to the Supreme Court first, as the AG & govt are duty bound to protect the perogative powers of the Crown.

Planned way means that parliament can decide hard Brexit or not. People voted to leave the EU. They did not vote on how it should be done.

I was in Geordieland today. It was not awash with homeless people

Planned way means that parliament can decide hard Brexit or not.

Except, as pointed out, we can't negotiate till after A50 - so the govt need room to negotiate, which the MPs will have to give them (or at least they will after the chief whip has put their balls in a vice)

As I said, the Bill may pass through the Commons, but it'll have a tough time getting through the Lords. It needs the agreement of both Houses before it becomes an Act or Parliament, until then it's just a Bill.

Technically, it also needs Royal approval, but I'm assuming that this is a given.

The how is what is to be negotiated. A50 Is little more than a trigger.

I agree that Brexshit is damaging to the UK but I am in the minority as are other remainders. That decision has now been made. We can't pretend it didn't happen.

The government will still have to see through the challenge to the Supreme Court first, as the AG & govt are duty bound to protect the perogative powers of the Crown.

govt are duty bound to protect the perogative powers of the Crown

IS this true? Genuine q btw
you can usually find a good source so what have you got?

I've always assumed that chewkw is some sort of SPAMbot/computer programmer's experiment.

My guess was that it was jambaliar posting through a filter.

mrmo - Member
what i would also hope is that by having to present to parliament we get an end to the current bulls**t. What does brexit actually mean?

The executive will be forced to have a plan, and if that plan is damaging to the UK then i would expect it to be thrown out. But if the plan is decent then maybe it will be accepted.

What you see in the referendum outcome is common sense democracy.

What you are doing now is like slowly tightening the noose around your neck by creating more rules to demobilise yourself.

You need a bit of flexibility with common sense not more rules.

As a bureaucrat I see that coming coz in our profession we specialise in creating more rules to govern other rules to govern other rules.

DrJ - Member

I've always assumed that chewkw is some sort of SPAMbot/computer programmer's experiment.

My guess was that it was jambaliar posting through a filter.

You die because of such little things? There are so many homeless people in GeordieLand surviving with nothing and you die because of the rejection of EU bureaucratic system because your life will change?

Just ...wow... maybe that will be the next welfare reform, gov save a completely insignificant amount of money based on the fact that plenty of homeless people live happy productive lives. You're a real specimen.

As a remainer I take no self satisfaction from this "result" it is an incredibly sad day when a British citizen has to take a government to court simply to establish a democratic vote. I don't care about Boris Davis Farage indignity it has the same impact on me as their jingoism as they are fundamentally unfit to run any enterprise that involves human beings. The arch Brexiteers are a global embarrasment and as an American friend pointed out they only have one lunatic and he actually doesn't hold office- we are a laughing stock and that my brave Brexiteers that is what really hurts - we don't have an ounce of dignity left we should be absolutely ashamed of this whole episode.

We can't pretend it didn't happen

IMHO there will be another vote either before A50 negotiations 0 do you wish to trigger A50 or after negotiations

DO you wiush to accept those terms and leave

The later is probably fairer the former is better to end uncertainty

cchris2lou - Member
Planned way means that parliament can decide hard Brexit or not. People voted to leave the EU. They did not vote on how it should be done.

This.

Any negotiating team heads into a negotiation with boundaries set by its masters. This ruling if up held, allows for parliament to delay or reject A50 being triggered, but more likely allows parliament to be the master that defines the boundaries rather than the bunch of fanatical idiots bent on destroying Britain that are the three Brexmigos (and their Sith overlord).

I said months ago that provided we get freedom of movement of labour and the single market I'm ok with it. Grants for farmers, Wales, Cornwall and the Northeast? Well we know what they (kind of) voted for.

mattyfez - Member
Just ...wow... maybe that will be the next welfare reform, gov save a completely insignificant amount of money based on the fact that plenty of homeless people live happy productive lives. You're a real specimen.

igm - Member

cchris2lou - Member
Planned way means that parliament can decide hard Brexit or not. People voted to leave the EU. They did not vote on how it should be done.

This.

Any negotiating team heads into a negotiation with boundaries set by its masters. This ruling if up held, allows for parliament to delay or reject A50 being triggered, but more likely allows parliament to be the master that defines the boundaries rather than the bunch of fanatical idiots bent on destroying Britain that are the three Brexmigos (and their Sith overlord).

The government will still have to see through the challenge to the Supreme Court first, as the AG & govt are duty bound to protect the perogative powers of the Crown.

You clearly haven't understood this at all (I can hear the crowd gasping in surprise). The perogative powers of the Crown are unaffected, and have just been clarified as what most people already thought them to be. The government has no duty to try expanding them beyond what is customarily accepted, whatever drivel IDS might be spouting.

Just read the ruling itself - or at least the FTs extracts of it - and it comes down to the HC's ruling that to repeal ECA 1972 requires another AoP. Fair enough.

So HoP now has to pass the Act so that negotiations can start. We have to make this nightmare as short as possible, not stretch it out. What a bit of a mess

The Brexshiteers seem to be overreacting to this. The end is the same, the process is different.

There is no negotiation position- we (primarily the English) have shown our true colour's by prevent democracy the very thing Brexiteers have screamed against. Here is the news
NO ONE TAKES US SERIOUSLY ANYMORE...

WE ARE ROUNDLY DISLIKED ACROSS THE WORLD...

WHAT THE * DID YOU EXPECT...

IT'S NOT COMPLICATED - ACT LIKE A * GET TREAT LIKE A ****

And commons and lords will want a pound of flesh here or there to pass that Bill

chewkw, a question for you. Very simple one.

How does a Chinese-speaking bureaucrat, non-native, non-resident, non-EU, get to vote in UK referenda?

If you're attached to the Embassy, you don't have this privilege. How then?