I seem to be detecting a certain amount of realisation that this is actually happening. You lot didn’t actually think it was going to be stopped did you?
Go on, pop the cork on that bubbly you were holding back, then.
You know you want to. I know you want to...
Go on, pop the cork on that bubbly you were holding back
It'd better be good old british bubbly, none of that filthy foreign muck....
It’d better be good old british bubbly, none of that filthy foreign muck….
Give it a few days and get something colonial. It’ll be tariff free.
Yep looks like labour will be gifting Johnson his hard Brexit
Yep looks like labour will be gifting Johnson his hard Brexit
Nuance alert. That's not Labour. It's an individual MP from Labour.
Any guesses on the Brexit Christmas No.1 anybody? I'm going with this 80s hair metal breakup ballad
I seem to be detecting a certain amount of realisation that this is actually happening. You lot didn’t actually think it was going to be stopped did you?
Discussing what to with some investments with Madame we came to the conclusion that remain was still a possible outcome amongst many. The road to remain being:
Boris loses vote tomorrow (predicted by most media I've watched/read today.
Boris fails to impose no deal and EU grant an extension
Election called and remainers rally around LDEMS and Labour depending on where they live to get either revoke or a second referendum.
We have some pounds which we'll ditch when Brexit is a certainty or has happened if it's never certain until it actually happens. I think a lot of businesses and individuals have the same attitude, there's no point completely jumping ship until it actually happens - if I were the boss of Renault, Nissan, Toyota, PSA, BMW etc. I'd have the same attitude.
It’s an individual MP from Labour.
If it was only one MP, there wouldn’t be an issue, would there? Looks like Johnson has enough Labour MPs willing to back this now… we’ll see tomorrow.
Nuance alert. That’s not Labour. It’s an individual MP from Labour.
One of several who have said they'll vote for Johnson's deal, knowing that Corbyn won't punish them for doing so & helping the hard right
knowing that Corbyn won’t punish them for doing so & helping the hard right
Wait, what.
Are we supposed to be in favour of Corbyn culling "moderate MPs now? Its hard to keep up with the inconsistencies in the desperate attempt to blame Corbyn for the failures of the centrists.
Word salad.
You know you want to. I know you want to…
As you should know as a long time follower of this thread I said some time ago that I’d made my peace with the fact that brexit was happening, due to the simple fact that people voted for it. It’s quite a leap though to go from that to supporting it, which I don’t and never will do.
I get that many on the remain side don’t feel the same, it’s a polarising subject, but it didn’t need to be this way. If you want to go looking for blame then maybe have a look at the fact that labour centrists leveraged it to attack Corbyn. This clusterf*ck is as much a failure of remainers obsessing about Corbyn as it is to do with the Brexiteers out-manoeuvring them.
Genuinely pretty worried/scared about the vote tomorrow.
It's likely to have a pretty large impact on myself and my immediate family. Partly financially and partly through the likely impact on the NHS.
I'm honestly not going to sleep well tonight.
That said, there are people that will suffer immeasurably more than us. Even though a lot of them are as yet, blissfully unaware of it. Voted for it in fact.
This is not the country I thought I knew and grew up in.
I'm deeply saddened by it all.
You know what, **** it.
I am sorry for the number of times I have had a cheap shot at you. I don’t know why, but I guess I chose you as my Brexit punch bag. I have played the man a number of times with you, I shouldn’t have.
I literally hate Brexit. The stupidity of it is still something I refuse to forgive. It serves no positive purpose whatsoever and it is my kids’ future that I am most worried about. I feel like we are on the edge of the breakdown of policing by consent. The police barely have the resources to attend burglaries now and the number of people I see blatantly using their phones whilst driving makes me think the prevalent view is that an offence has only been committed if the perp is caught.
Education is up for sale to the highest bidder, as will the NHS be. You can see it already. Deliberate starving of funding, then the declaration that the school or hospital is ‘failing’ and it is tossed to the jackals. Hardly any top execs seem to get moved on though, and if they do they just join the merry go round.
Anyway, this was meant to be an apology, but it has turned into another rant. I’ll stop now.
Really hope there is an amendment that stops this Boris deal being switched for No Deal Brexit, should negotiations not succeed by December 2020.
I can't see any other reason why ERG want this deal to get through tomorrow, something that I don't believe was possible with May's deal.
I can’t see any other reason why ERG want this deal to get through tomorrow, something that I don’t believe was possible with May’s deal
To be fair Johnson has given them a harder Brexit than May & offered up the chance to slash workers rights, standards & environmental protections - (which is why labour letting MPs vote for it is so amazing)
Marina Hyde puts it rather well as usual
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/18/david-cameron-greased-piglet-brexit
I am sorry for the number of times I have had a cheap shot at you. I don’t know why, but I guess I chose you as my Brexit punch bag. I have played the man a number of times with you, I shouldn’t have.
I'm probably guilty of that too, and if that's the case then I genuinely and sincerely apologise. I don't like "playing the man" but I'm human and fallible. But this is why:
I’d made my peace with the fact that brexit was happening, due to the simple fact that people voted for it.
As a closet leaver, this is a clever tactic. Present something superficially reasonable and hope that enough people fall for it to "get behind brexit."
As a remainer, it's spineless cowardice. It's resigning yourself to the fact that you're being bullied and curling up into the foetal position in the hope that they'll get bored and stop kicking you.
Which camp you actually fall into I don't know, though from your past comments I have my suspicions. Regardless, if you think we're all going to just go "oh well, never mind" then you're one off. Sorry.
As I've said repeatedly (and you've ignored repeatedly), "because people voted for it" is an utterly stupid vacuous reason to be blindly pressing on with it. Parliament has a duty of care to act in the country's best interest, despite what its electorate thinks it wants, and it has utterly failed in this capacity. Parliament is sovereign (something I thought was supposed to be important) not the people.
If I were a betting man then I'd agree with you, I too would lean towards brexit in some form actually happening. But I'm absolutely ****ed if I'm just going to accept that as the inevitable outcome until it actually happens.
People are worried. People are scared. Look at the previous couple of posts. This isn't "project fear," it's genuine concern based on a dose of reality crossed with the government's own projections.
For my part, my mother had a stroke and almost suffered double kidney failure a few years ago, and now relies on a cocktail of drugs to keep her alive. A disruption in supply of any one of those drugs would almost certainly kill her. Tell me, seriously, how you think I should "make peace" with that, I'm all ears. "Your mum's gonna die, she was old anyway, leave won remain lost shut up and get over it you remoaner, it's a price worth paying, think of the inheritance"?
If your game plan thus far has been to score points on the Internet, I suggest you think long and hard before replying, for I may be somewhat vexed.
Parliament has a duty of care to act in the country’s best interest, despite what its electorate thinks it wants, and it has utterly failed in this capacity.
Unfortunately many things have already happened that have pushed us towards inevitability based on the pieces on the board right now.
This is not the country I thought I knew and grew up in.
I feel the same.
The issue is not Brexit. It was not something I wanted, but change happens and life goes on. It's the integrity, and the ethical and moral values that have been eroded that I find most disturbing. It's the approach. The journey we've taken. Somewhere we took a wrong turn and ended up in Russia. It's not the well-balanced, objective, pragmatic, rational, inclusive and respected country I thought we grew up in. It feels like it's in the middle of a nervous breakdown, screaming at the kids while finishing a second bottle of whisky.
Unfortunately many things have already happened that have pushed us towards inevitability based on the pieces on the board right now.
Time to rage-quit and kick the ****ing table over, then.
On a technical point: EU regs are direct law in member states. Directives are transposed into member state law, and there are derogations in both, which are choices for member states. The role of the European commission is to assess compliance. Lecture over, but my point is that divergence from any of this will be done via legislation, lead by the government, whomever bugs crawl out from under the stinking rock we are all under while this posturing, politicking and party before country shite rains down on us all. Even Keir Starmer couldn't keep a straight face on the news last night.
Sound analysis by Prof Steve Peers and a good lesson in the merit of seeking compromise
Those MPs who opposed the previous withdrawal agreement formed part of different groups, who opposed that agreement for various conflicting reasons: to obtain a ‘harder’ Brexit (fewer ties to the EU, more capacity to deregulate); a ‘softer’ Brexit (stronger ties to the EU, less capacity to deregulate); and to increase the chances of preventing Brexit completely. These three aims were necessarily in conflict: only one of the three groups could achieve its intended objective, and the other two groups would have gambled and lost, putting themselves further away than before from their ideal outcome. As things stand, if the revised withdrawal agreement is approved, it’s the hard Brexiters who won their gamble, and the soft Brexiters and Remainers who made a serious tactical mistake.
Err… those that have got what they sought didn’t “seek compromise”, they blocked their leader (and PM) from making progress, then led a revolt against her (for not progressing) and helped install a new leader after assurances from him that he would act in their interests.
The ERG look to have succeeded by being fortunate in finding two equally obdurate groups of opponents, the lesson is for them.
Cougar, calm the hell down man, you’ll do yourself an injury. We’re talking about trade policy and freedom to work in other countries. Important issues for sure but not something that requires the labelling of people as cowards, spineless, bullies or whatever else. I have a view, many others don’t, and sadly there are more of them than there are of me. That’s all it is. (And something I’m fairly used to thankfully)
And if you want to do brexit victim top trumps then I too have parents dependent on life sustaining drugs and medical care, and family and friends in both Europe and here whose lives have been made uncertain because of brexit. You can either accept that you are at the whim of forces beyond your control, or you spend your time raging about it. Whichever side you’re on people are going to disagree, and personally I’d rather that than live in a world where we’re forced to think in the same way as everyone else.
And for the record, again, I’m completely opposed to brexit. If you doubt that ask some of the people who knows me, I’m sure they’ll confirm it.
Sound analysis by Prof Steve Peers
Clearly a fan of Neville Chamberlain.
Former Head of the Treasury putting everything into perspective like Dazh
<p lang="en" dir="ltr">Will tomorrow's debate seem quite so important in 20 years time? For all the bluster, Mr Johnson has shown that he won't lead the country over the cliff edge. And so we'll end up close to the EU but not in it. Not so dissimilar to where we have been since Maastricht. #freetrade</p>— Nick Macpherson (@nickmacpherson2) October 18, 2019
https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js
Still can't embed Tweets
This clusterf*ck is as much a failure of remainers obsessing about Corbyn
Yeah, it's late and I've been on the ale, but do **** off with blaming remainers for this.
Nah DazH you have got it all wrong, we have been expecting a hard or no deal Brexit for a long time precisely because of Corbyns labour.
Good sum up of labours efforts here
https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1185087528585629696?s=19
Your posts are contradictory mefty
If the ERG have 'won' then we won't be close to the EU but not in it.
It's a hard Brexit & yes it's a victory for the ERG, but they always had the advantage of being willing to crash the country & their own party to get what they wanted, knowing that the poorest would suffer, not them.
John Mann on Sky news now gloatingly proclaiming he’s going to vote in support of Boris.
On a technical point: EU regs are direct law in member states. Directives are transposed into member state law, and there are derogations in both, which are choices for member states. The role of the European commission is to assess compliance. Lecture over, but my point is that divergence from any of this will be done via legislation
I’ve been banging on about this, they’ll be able to do whatever they like with no EU oversight.
we have been expecting a hard or no deal Brexit for a long time precisely because of Corbyns labour
There was a lot the defeated remain side could have done in the time since the referendum. They could have engaged with moderate leavers to ensure a soft brexit. Did they do that? No, they’ve spent the last 3 years coming up with every trick in the book to reverse the decision, and focused their ire not on Farage, May and Cameron, but on Corbyn. They have only themselves to blame if this goes through today.
They could have engaged with moderate leavers to ensure a soft brexit.
Which moderate Leavers?
Yes, the population is full of them… but in politics generally, and in Parliament more specifically, all those who presented the argument for a moderate Brexit during the run up to the referendum flipped to Hard Brexit once the public vote was won.
Farage, May and Cameron, but on Corbyn. They have only themselves to blame if this goes through today.
Rubbish, ive emailed my local remain now leaver Tory MP, multiple times, made no difference.
Johnson
Farage
May
Cameron All equally complicit in this & they've been rightly criticised
Corbyn has a choice today, he can put actual pressure on his leave minded MPs not to help Johnson get a hard brexit & a resultant big majority at a GE. Or he can just give them a pass....
Corbyn has a choice today, he can put actual pressure on his leave minded MPs
And I’m sure he will be doing. Trouble is most of the labour rebels are long-standing centrist critics of Corbyn so I doubt he’ll get very far. Or are we still pretending that they’re all rabid lexiteers like Campbell?
It’s very interesting how the backstop became the frontstop and Boris is actually using the getting rid of the backstop ‘they said couldn’t be done’as a selling point. When in reality he’s just triggered it.
(I get it doesn’t affect the whole uk but it was an insurance policy so would have only been bought into play in the event of FTD Failure).
He’s pretty much tied us into another time critical 14 months of trade negotiation or no-deal, Same shit different side of the wall.
Corbyn has been ambiguous, inactive and complicit, that's why people don't like him. The others you mention have served this country badly but they've been upfront about their goals even if they've lied about the detail.
Corbyn has got himself into a position where Boris Johnson may well be our prime minister for the next 5 years with a landslide majority, that's on Corbyn.
Brexit capitulators are truely awful people.
Corbyn has got himself into a position where Boris Johnson may well be our prime minister for the next 5 years with a landslide majority, that’s on Corbyn.
No. That will be on the people that choose to make that vote.
Jesus. Even remainers are attacking each other now. What the actual ****? Why make this tribal with such sweeping statements? Get a grip.
Brexit capitulators
Get a bloody grip man. This is not a war, it is a policy decision on trade and international working rights. The language of war and conflict only plays into the hands of the nutters at the extremes.
Get a bloody grip man. This is not a war, it is a policy decision on trade and international working rights. The language of war and conflict only plays into the hands of the nutters at the extremes.
Sums it up.
It has identified the anti-democratic fascism enthusiast amongst us. Which was interesting.