I suspect the only way the deal could make it through parliament is with a ref2 amendment attached, Bojos deal Vs remain.
Agreed.
Not only that, but what’s the alternative? To seek an extension, and for what…? If we tell the EU it’s for us to fight several elections, and perhaps end up with No Deal… or yet more can kicking… why should they put up with that? An extension for a referendum, resulting in either the agreed Withdrawal Agreement being ratified and trade deal talks proper being kicked off, or the whole thing being called off and the UK staying in the EU… that narrows the outcomes for them, and gives them the knowledge that the extension will actually end with a resolution, of sorts.
When does Junker move on by the way? Soon?
No matter what happens, some things never change...
Magic Grandad still happily sat there on his fence
Lol Farage, hahah! desperatley clining onto what little relevence he still has 🙂
its all about the labour rebels
@stevextc I agree about conflating xenophobia with racism, but I equally dislike either driving government policy.
As for culture, I still don’t get your point. If you don’t like to live surrounded by people of “another culture”, you need to define what that culture is to explain your concerns and motives for others to decide if that is born of racism, xenophobia, or something else. Just waving around the word “culture” is meaningless… and doesn’t magically transform concerns to “not racist” or “not xenophobic” without looking at what is meant be a culture different to your own.
My point is debate is not getting that far because it is shut down the minute someone say's "I don’t like it when my neighbourhood is dominated overwhelmingly by...."
I don’t like it when my neighbours are _________ ?
Based on the xenophobes I know the issue is not who lives next door but if the overwhelming majority of the surrounding 1000 families are all from a single culture (as they themselves define it).
This is the same as many of the non-xenophobes I know, a large percent being immigrants or mixed origin themselves. (I count our family in this and also my Dr friend by which I mean people with a preference for a multi-cultural neighbourhood)
The main difference is in general the more xenophobic ones are voting leave because they get called racist by remain for saying "I don't like it when my neighbourhood is"
My dirty maths even with full tory backing:
Party Seats Against bojo
Conservative 288 -
Labour 244 220
Independent 36 28
SNP 35 35
Liberal Dem 19 19
DUP 10 10
Change 5 5
Plaid Cymru 4 4
Green Party 1 1
Total seats 642 322
Maj more than 321<p lang="en" dir="ltr">People’s Vote MPs pulling back from having any second ref vote on Saturday - say it’s now not the time, better to wait (they don’t have numbers among former Tory MPs)</p>— Rowena Mason (@rowenamason) October 17, 2019
https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js
Struggling to embed tweet but unlikely to be vote on another referendum on Saturday
agree Junckers comment is being reported a bit different to how he said it.
Outrage by Farage say's it all!
Junker supports the British PM/clown saying we have a deal whilst answering a question from a journalist - Farage is outraged.
Alternate scenario.... Junker undermines our clown and say's of course an extension is still possible... outcome Farage is outraged.
Corbyn this morning or rather "in his name"
From what we know, it seems the Prime Minister has negotiated an even worse deal than Theresa May’s, which was overwhelmingly rejected.
These proposals risk triggering a race to the bottom on rights and protections: putting food safety at risk, cutting environmental standards and workers’ rights, and opening up our NHS to a takeover by US private corporations.
This sell-out deal won’t bring the country together and should be rejected. The best way to get Brexit sorted is to give the people the final say in a public vote.
I am 100% certain EU27 would permit an extension if deal falls on Saturday.”
These unnamed "sources"could be anybody. I think that the reason Barnier and Junker are going so hard for a deal is that there's a good chnace it's their last chance. As my evaluation has as much validity as any unnamed "source" I'll pitch in with a 50% chance of an extension being refused.
“I don’t like it when my neighbourhood is dominated overwhelmingly by….”
People tend to ask “by what”… and the answer to that question tends to tell you if the concern is born of racism, or xenophobia, or something else.
You can keep talking about “culture”, but at some point @stevextc you have to get down to specifics. Only then can you work out the motivations.
I’ll pitch in with a 50% chance of an extension being refused.
which country would refuse it though?
would be very divisive for commission, cant see them damaging themself over this
People tend to ask “by what”… and the answer to that question tends to tell you if the concern is born of racism, or xenophobia, or something else.
You can keep talking about “culture”, but at some point @stevextc you have to get down to specifics. Only then can you work out the motivations.
It may well not be racism, but it's the very definition of xenophobia - a fear or dislike of something "other," something strange or foreign.
I think perhaps the stumbling block here is inferring that xenophobia is inherently Bad. It certainly has the potential to be, but wanting to spend time with people whom you have something in common with is a fairly natural human reaction. I mean, most folk would choose to go to the pub with their mates rather than a bunch of strangers, wouldn't they?
I think that's what Steve is trying to say? But going from here to racism is rather a fine line, isn't it.
which country would refuse it though?
Turkey.
turkey not in the commission
but I can see how they would want the deal NI has got
DD, I thought they were out of the running, what with not being in Europe?
I mean, I could see Hungary or Spain doing it for one reason or another (Gibraltar, Johnson pressure, etc) but not a non-member of Europe.
DD, I thought they were out of the running, what with not being in Europe?
Get outta here. They’ve not joined yet? 😲
You miss my point @Cougar… it may not be xenophobia at all… they might just dislike young people, noisy people, church bells, joggers, shell suits… I dunno… “culture” is such a wide term that more specifics are required. Many people currently hide behind the term when they’re really just racist… so when someone votes because of a fear of being isolated within a culture they don’t like… questions have to be asked. Find out what they mean. Don’t assume they’re racist… but if they aren’t, they need to articulate what they don’t like, not just keep saying “culture”.
Looking at the chart kimbers put up its going to go through isn’t it , maybe not by much but it only takes a few labour rebels .
Almost more depressing is if it does go through Boris is all of a sudden a Brexit hero for the 52% and would surely win a general election all because of a few labour rebel’s , what a mess Corbyn has made of all this .
What times kick off on Saturday?
In going to be glued to the box all day. A defining moment one way or another.
It is a worse deal than mays, yet the ERG are falling in line. Which just goes to show, they wanted their man in power for what comes afterwards. If it does go through life in Britain is going to get very messy.
Pleeeeaaase someone reassure me this shitty ‘deal’ isn’t going to make it through parliament. Please.
This is going to destroy our economy, result in the NHS being sold off to Trump and his mates and screw over normal people and their working conditions.
Corbyn is also a ****ing disgrace. He is going to sit on his hands whilst we are sold down the river.
Cougar...
It may well not be racism, but it’s the very definition of xenophobia – a fear or dislike of something “other,” something strange or foreign.
I think perhaps the stumbling block here is inferring that xenophobia is inherently Bad. It certainly has the potential to be, but wanting to spend time with people whom you have something in common with is a fairly natural human reaction. I mean, most folk would choose to go to the pub with their mates rather than a bunch of strangers, wouldn’t they?
I think that’s what Steve is trying to say? But going from here to racism is rather a fine line, isn’t it.
More or less....
I think xenophobia is quite natural... and a huge big grey area. At some point it can side up with racism/other-ism... and more importantly I think/believe it can be used as a lever to create racism/otherism.
This grey area is not just about race or religion (in the strict sense perhaps*).. for example I'm xenophobic about going in a Wetherspoons full of Brexiters (* hence perhaps).
I'm just uncomfortable having to listen to their crap.... and their expectation I go along...
So whether its some bloke in Abergevenny saying "I don't want a huge influx of English" or the same bloke saying he doesn't want a huge influx of Somali's it's the same thing... or for that matter some Spanish bloke saying "we don't want more English buying property here with their English pubs and English Cafe's"
I think it's perfectly acceptable... in the same way I feel I should be able to say I don't want to go to a Wetherspoons of Brexiters...
What I think is important is how that fine line can be pushed... if you refuse to let people have their opinion shouting them down (so to speak) with racist/homophobic/misogynist etc. and you tell them that enough then sooner or later many will actually start to behave that way when they are accepted elsewhere.
It's like telling a child they are crap every day of their life..
My point of saying this is because I believe their are many leave protest voters who actually fall into this category, indeed Leave has spent a long time grooming them.
I have one friend who is spouting racist crap...along with other Brexit crap for example... I can practically see the analytics and sentiment analysis that has identified him as "vulnerable" and targetted him ...based on his posts and views... or another devout catholic one.. again based on the crap he's posting I can practically design the analytics and how to segregate...in his case it was probably something to do with gay marriage or women priests...
The money behind leave is from a fairly nasty set of people... and they have pulled off a master coup... against all facts they have managed to get a whole load of turkey's voting for XMAS....
I find what they are doing way more sickening than some bloke saying I don't want my estate overwhelmed by <<insert here>>
Corbyn is also a **** disgrace. He is going to sit on his hands whilst we are sold down the river.
The way he's be talking suggests he'll whip against the deal?
There might be a few labour rebels, but more volitile are the indie MPs..
Anyone know the composition of them currently? I know a few are exiled Tories who might be looking to weasel thier way back under the tory whip..
You're a bit late, but welcome to the thread.
Looks about 50/50 that it'll fly.
Almost more depressing is if it does go through Boris is all of a sudden a Brexit hero for the 52% and would surely win a general election all because of a few labour rebel’s , what a mess Corbyn has made of all this .
Oh so very much this. Deal through on Sat and we have 5 more years of this shitshow in #10.
OTOH, if it doesn't he is toast.
Corbyn, yes, has been intently paddling his canoe upstream away from what looks like the biggest open goal going, which would also be coincident with saving the country from being screwed over.
kelvin
You miss my point @Cougar… it may not be xenophobia at all… they might just dislike young people, noisy people, church bells, joggers, shell suits… I dunno… “culture” is such a wide term that more specifics are required. Many people currently hide behind the term when they’re really just racist… so when someone votes because of a fear of being isolated within a culture they don’t like… questions have to be asked. Find out what they mean. Don’t assume they’re racist… but if they aren’t, they need to articulate what they don’t like, not just keep saying “culture”.
it may not be xenophobia at all… they might just dislike young people, noisy people, church bells, joggers, shell suits…
That is "culture" and "fear or dislike of it" is xenophobia.
Don’t assume they’re racist… but if they aren’t, they need to articulate what they don’t like, not just keep saying “culture”.
You are making it very difficult.... re-read what you wrote.
"Don't assume but it's up to them to prove otherwise." (paraphrased) it seems to me like an assumption of guilt but then to extend the court analogy, in the meantime everytime they try and articulate they are being heckled with "racist", "mysogenist"... and to get a bit historical it seems a lot like a literal "witch hunt"
Corbyn is also a **** disgrace. He is going to sit on his hands whilst we are sold down the river.
And how exactly is he sitting on his hands? He's already declared his opposition and he'll whip his MPs to vote against it. What else do you want him to do?
moonsaballoon
Almost more depressing is if it does go through Boris is all of a sudden a Brexit hero for the 52% and would surely win a general election all because of a few labour rebel’s , what a mess Corbyn has made of all this .
Frankly that typifies WHY....
I'll take Boris or Corbyn for however long because it's reversible.
Other than leaving there is little Boris can do that can't be undone... it might be crap but the world will go on and things will be repaired for our children.
dazh
And how exactly is he sitting on his hands?
He's been sat on his hands since 2015... trying his best to use this to get elected.
which country would refuse it though?
It would be "countries" plural showing solidarity or a country that Boris managed to get on side.
Apparently a deal is done according to BBC.
If the Parliament agrees to the deal then the surrender treaty is signed.
Looks like Tories will be doomed in the next GE.
All these political elites need hammering ...
If the Parliament agrees to the deal
... if.
At this juncture, honestly whoTF knows. They kicked out May's "done deal" multiple times, but with a fortnight to B-day they might agree to this out of sheer desperation. I wouldn't like to bet good money either way, I expect it'll be close. Assuming it's not found to be illegal in the next two days, anyway.
What was that popular phrase a year or two back? Tick. Tock.
Analysis of the deal from CNN Business, worth reading. From same site,a break down of main differences from May's deal. Almost all are "not good" in my opinion...
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Warning, you won't sleep better on Saturday night if this goes through...
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/17/business/uk-economy-brexit-deal/index.html
Summary: More damaging than May's deal, huge increase in bureaucracy and we are going to be a much, much diminished county 10.years from now.
its going to fail,
it wont get approved,
EU wont give an extension so we will end up barrelling towards a no-deal.
Last minute revoke of article 50 will save the day.
In of not approved by parliament I'm hedging towards an extension and either a GE or referendum.
The EU have indicated an extension would be granted.... But who really knows? Chaos.
And how exactly is he sitting on his hands? He’s already declared his opposition and he’ll whip his MPs to vote against it. What else do you want him to do?
Do? Now? Oh, nothing, darling. What is the point after three years?
But, I mean, one really does want one’s ‘opposition’ to oppose, particularly when it is a Labour ‘opposition’ that is, in fact, delivering the working people of this country into the hands of a bunch of free-market, profiteering, short-termist spivs. Presumably in the vain hope that the lumpen proletariat will wake up after five years and deliver a socialist utopia via the ballot box, or somesuch shit that the Momentum six formers have imagined for themselves.
But carry on as you are. Deny that Kinnock and his clique are just running scared of their racist constituents. Deny that Corbyn wants the Brexit shock nearly as much as the disaster capitalists, only he is too doctrinally fixated and thick to realise that ‘his’ electorate have already been brainwashed by the Daily Mail and the Sun. Deny that Hoey and Field are just as xenophobic and racist as the Home Counties Himmlers, they just say ‘grass’ rather than ‘grarse’.
^^ Sadly, you do make a very good point.
Deny that Kinnock and his clique are just running scared of their racist constituents. Deny that Corbyn wants the Brexit shock nearly as much as the disaster capitalists, only he is too doctrinally fixated and thick to realise that ‘his’ electorate have already been brainwashed by the Daily Mail and the Sun.
I'll deny those things, you're talking bobbins.
The end result of Corbyns Disaster Socialism will feel exactly the same as Johnson’s Disaster Capitalism for the vast majority of us.
The only difference is that he hasn’t even got the excuse that him and his rich mates will make a fortune out of it.
It’s just down to plain old ideological, 70’s, retro, Bennite, 6th form level, placard-waving, anti-EU stupidity
I’ll deny those things, you’re talking bobbins.
So Momentum are a forward-looking, outward-looking and progressive clique are they?
Corbyn is not sentimental towards what he sees as the working class and believes they all have a heart of gold and have just been temporarily misled?
Labour MPs weren’t caught on the hop by the red-toothed racism/xenophobia that their constituents displayed at the first opportunity? They didn’t then decide to sacrifice (to a greater or lesser extent) their inclusive core principles to pander to those people?
Bollocks. They’ve tried to walk both sides of the street for so long now they wouldn’t know what a coherent policy was if it slapped them in the face. And if they did, they would dismiss it as an up to date version of ‘The Durham Miners will never wear it’ to hark back to a previous bout of Labour Insular vs Open cowardice when it comes to Europe.
I’ll take Boris or Corbyn for however long because it’s reversible.
Other than leaving there is little Boris can do that can’t be undone… it might be crap but the world will go on and things will be repaired for our children.
Yep stevextc I would go along with that , a friend of mine lives in the US and i always point out to him his nightmare will end at worst in 5 years , hopefully sooner . I feel like were being dragged of a cliff with no way back.