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I am afraid by the consequences of overturning the biggest democratic vote in British history. Many rational people have lost their heads and are happily spouting hatred because ‘I want to remain/leave’
The new ref has to be leave only options put together by an independent impartial group to break the deadlock and move on
I'm sorry but how does disenfranchising remain voters heal the country?
Democracy doesn't mean lets keep voting till we get the answer we want. remain voters won't be disenfranchised. they will have the option to vote for something almost identical to what we currently have in place. They will sacrifice some pennies in the name of democracy, Deadlock broken.
hey, being offensive on the internet isn't new or cool squirrelking, wind your neck in or take a break from your keyboard
I can’t answer for squirrelking but I’ll only wind my neck in when I see a valid and positive reason for leaving, until then I will continue to torch the death cult excuses and empty promises of the new British dawn regurgitated by rabid leave voters and dance upon their burning embers till they are nothing more than a dim memory.
I am afraid by the consequences of overturning the biggest democratic vote in British history
On something that nobody was really bothered with until this all kicked off and Cambridge analytic stroked.
I will continue to torch the death cult excuses and empty promises of the new British dawn
Remainer cultist 🙂
But I agree with your sentiment.
It’s always will of the people and democracy that gets shouted, then shouted at because of the traitorous Supreme Court judges.
Just come up with a viable solution to NI and your out without the running away and leaving others to live in your mess.
Easy to shout the loudest and run away.
er so what….
Whats the answer to the NI Border issue then and what do you do with 2 non viable Oil Refinerys that you end up with if we trade on WTO.
How does a guide dog cross the road in Ireland/NI when the only points they are legally permitted to are ports and airports.
just for starters.
Pan! Mere details. Now, where is my cross of St George flag? Rule Britannia. Two world wars and one World Cup, do-dah, do-dah. Etc.
Democracy doesn’t mean we stop voting when we get the answer we want.
We recently tried and failed to get a housing estate built on school playing fields.
The will of the people was easily cast aside when there's profit to be made.
excee
Proof?
Northwind that’s not really true, you are suggesting that everyone who voted for remain would always vote remain regardless of leave options. Remain voters voted for all sorts of different reasons and this is well established.
Sorry but in this one single post you have just removed all credibility from yourself.
I think he managed that some time ago....
Not forgetting that a new referendum should include the 2 million EU citizens living in the UK, plus the 3 million UK citizens living in the EU, both groups who are profoundly impacted by the outcome.
Molgrips, how many times can we ask? Best of 3 or maybe 5, why would anyone accept any result ever again? The question was asked and clearly decided now we need a new ref on the type of leave deal to move forward
The problem was the original referendum was fatally flawed. They had a half-arsed attempt to renegotiate terms before the referendum then a simple Leave or Remain option. That was wrong but Dave was far too complacent to spot the danger.
The result was many people who voted Leave voted for something that isn't actually what's happening. They weren't voting for a simple Leave, they were voting for Cummings & BoJo's version of Brexit whereby we stop sending the EU loads of money and get everything we want in return.
As even JRM said pre-referendum, there should have been two referendums from the outset, the first on whether to invoke A50, the second, post-negotiation to decide whether we want to Leave or Remain once everyone knew the actual terms we would leave under (not the lies purported on FB etc.)
So a second referendum now is merely correcting a mistake made with the first one, it's not subverting the will of the people, we all still get to vote in the second referendum.
I am afraid by the consequences of overturning the biggest democratic vote in British history.
Yes, and this is why the only way forward is *another* big vote.
Remain is still an option. As long as it is, it should be on any confirmatory referendum. Otherwise, how is it still the will of the people?
This isn't a game show, where they have to take your first answer. It's about finding the best option for the UK in the minds of most people. That might be remain, so it needs to be an option.
excee
Molgrips, how many times can we ask? Best of 3 or maybe 5, why would anyone accept any result ever again? The question was asked and clearly decided now we need a new ref on the type of leave deal to move forward.
What needs to happen is for leave to deliver on its promises:
£350M/wk for the NHS all budgeted and balanced and checked.
We need them to deliver "the easiest trade deal in history" - both David Davis and BoJo failed
We need them to deliver these amazing deals with the rest of the world and share these so they can be analysed and we the electorate can see what we get in return
It's a long list ... but they had 3 years.
It's not a shit sandwich, its a heart transplant.
We got told our heart is a bit shaky, were getting older but absolutely fine... yet we decide to ignore the huge majority of experts until we find some internet doctor .. they promise a new heart taken from a world class athlete.. it will be better than keeping our own and they can guarantee our body won't reject it... so we are convinced and commit.
As we are on the operating table about to be sedated we get told it's not actually a human heart but one from a dog that died of a heart attack but they will give it a good cleanout and it might work or if they can negotiate it there is a chance they might get us one from a pig that died of cancer but there is a reasonable chance the cancer didn't spread to the heart.
When we object we get told too late... you already voted ..
Northwind that’s not really true, you are suggesting that everyone who voted for remain would always vote remain regardless of leave options. Remain voters voted for all sorts of different reasons and this is well established.
Sorry but in this one single post you have just removed all credibility from yourself.
Remain really is Remain.
Yes remain is remain, but a fair number of people myself included voted remain when it became clear that removal of freedom of movement ment we couldn't stay in the single market/customs union.
With different options on a ballot (soft brexit retaining freedom of movement) it not a certainty that all remainers will still vote remain.
But I thought Brexit wasn’t about them immigrants takin our jerbs. I thought it was about economics and sovereignty.
I see the tory 'rebels' have started their push to be admitted back in to the party. Need I remind anyone that these are the 'remain' heroes who Jo Swinson has agreed to support by way of standing down her own candidates. When are people going to wake up to the fact there's only one party seriously offering a remain alternative to whatever it is Johnson is leading us towards?
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1181134112045834245?s=20
Supposed remainer Nicky Morgan wrote an article in yesterday's Observer extolling the virtues of the total nonsense that Johnson is proposing on Brexit. Which it seems pretty apparent is just a blame-storming exercise for an inevitable no deal
I voted Remain but I’m backing the PM’s Brexit plan to break logjam
Every single last one of them, from all party's, will put their own career advancement way before the good of the country.
Most of the Tory rebels won’t bring down Johnson while there is any chance of a deal being struck with the EU that gives us a transition period and a “safe”-ish way out of membership… and they will never make Corbyn PM for any amount of time for any reason in any circumstances… to stop no deal the opposition parties need to work with those two facts, rather than just make lots of noise about it to shift blame around (that’s a criticism I’d aim at all the opposition parties currently).
It seems that the government is finally starting to realise the full implications of a no deal Brexit
No Deal Brexit could lead to increase in dogging
to stop no deal the opposition parties need to work with those two facts
To stop no deal the lib dems, tory rebels and Anna Soubry et al need to stop dicking about, swallow their pride/prejudice, and start working with labour instead of issuing ridiculous demands like asking them to change their leader. And to think many accuse labour of 6th form politics.
Funny isn't it, in 2010 the lib dems said they could work with labour, but not Brown, then in 2015 they said they could work with labour, but not with Miliband, now they say they can work with labour, but not Corbyn. They are wolves in sheep's clothing, and anyone giving them any support are simply on the wrong side of not just the brexit argument, but everything else.
Yes. They should all stop “dicking about” and work out how to stop no deal with the help of old “enemies” elected as Conservative MPs and reluctant to unseat a Conservative PM even at the most dire of times (with the most dire of Conservative PMs), many of whom will never make Corbyn PM, not even for a single day.
The noboff case is tomorrow though.
No, not according to david allen green on twitter, see below
Basically the government has been backed into a corner and there is no way out as boris legally HAS to ask for extension
Does that mean the Benn act is unenforceable?
No. The court was told that the PM would comply and send the letter, so there is no need for the court to act.
The Benn act still needs parliament to act once the letter is sent though… it’s not the case that the act by itself will prevent a no deal exit at the end of the month, and it never has been, despite how it has been reported.
Today's case: of course this fine upstanding young man will do the right thing and marry your pregnant daughter.
Tomorrow's case: here's the shotgun.
I fear that while we're all fussing over interpreting the details of various legal judgements, Dom and Dommer are just planning on ignoring the lot and just going through the motions before they crash us out, then deal with the consequences after its all too late and we're out.
The law doesn't apply to them, remember.
As kids, we learn to keep lies simple and to the point if we intend to get away with them. The more convoluted and complicated the lie, the less chance there is of success. We also learn (some of us anyway) when to stop digging the hole your in.
It would appear that the leave campaign forgot these two fundamental rules.
Yes binners, that would fit their character. Besides, what's a short amount of time in an open prison when you've made an absolute fistful of blood money.
Looks like they have collectively decided that deadline is Friday, well as boris doesn't want a deal that suits him fine.
The protests are going to be big when we crash out
Democracy doesn’t mean lets keep voting till we get the answer we want.
The only people suggesting this are leavers building a straw man argument. The notion that anyone wants to keep having the same vote over and over again is a leave lie (which is somewhat ironic given that the only reason they don't want another vote is that they've already got the answer they want).
remain voters won’t be disenfranchised.
Remain voters are already disenfranchised and have been for over three years. How many times have you seen the phrase "16 million people" on newspaper headlines recently? 17 million votes = the will of the people, 16 million votes = we won you lost shut up and get on with it. And you have the brass neck to bray about "democracy"? Democracy involves all the people, not just the ones who happen to agree with you.
The shouty leavers don't care about democracy. Many don't even understand what the word means (or they do and ignore it). They just want to win.
they will have the option to vote for something almost identical to what we currently have in place.
Almost identical, only worse. In a best case brexit scenario we get everything we currently enjoy only we lose our say in the running of the EU - the very opposite of "taking back control." Why would anyone in their right mind want that? It gains us nothing, and the government knows this which is why May's deal got thrown out three times (AKA "keeping voting till we get the answer we want," that'll be that 'irony' thing again then).
Everybody needs good neighbours…
Cougar. I have an opinion that is different to yours, sorry if you think that's brass neck territory, you sound like one of them shouty leavers dont you think?.
Creating a fair way forward for everyone is extremely complicated because everything has a serious knock on effect to a huge number of voters :o)
It isn't ridiculous to suggest that any sort of overturning of the biggest democratic vote in British history is very dangerous. I don't think voters are going to believe in your version of democracy however much you bray about it and I think I'm more fearful of the consequences of that than actually leaving the EU. We can rejoin the EU but can we overcome the ramped up underlying resentment that will spread if people think they've been stitched or they might continue to vote against the system just because remain is on the ref as kelvin implies.
Remain cannot be on the new referendum in my proposal, we need an independent impartial body to put together a referendum with leave only options. The biggest democratic vote in British history has already decided leave/remain, now we need to break the deadlock and move on. Fair and square and the the majority will accept this version of democracy.
You are wrong, leaving the EU with a similar agreement to what we have now without the cherries is actually a better deal than what we have now. Better for the EU which means better for us in the long game.
You are wrong, leaving the EU with a similar agreement to what we have now without the cherries is actually a better deal than what we have now. Better for the EU which means better for us in the long game.
how does that make sense?
it still leaves the country economically worse off than it is now & Im not sure that we will survive another decade of austerity
a 2nd ref where we voted to remain would not be democracy being overturned, it would be just democracy
there is no cutoff on how long the mandate from a referendum lasts, otherwise the 1975 vote keep us in forever
we need an independent impartial body to put together a referendum with leave only options.
May I question your impartiality, if you're ignoring about two thirds of the electorate?
The biggest democratic vote in British history has already decided leave/remain, now we need to break the deadlock and move on. Fair and square...
That's where your problem is - that tricky little "fair and square" aspect. As nothing that the Leave campaign promised will be delivered, their mandate is on the slightly shakey side, no matter how much you wish it weren't.
I think I’m more fearful of the consequences of that than actually leaving the EU.
I said pretty much the same a few hundred pages ago. Prepare yourself for accusations of being a nazi appeaser and other such nonsense. I worry about it more now, but think every side needs to be represented in a new referendum. I'm not sure I could stand the wailing of the remain glitterati either on here or in the guardian.
Trouble is, in the opinion of many remainers, all the stupid moronic leavers don't understand how democracy works. No doubt Cougar will be along soon with his well-rehearsed remainsplaining lecture on the functioning of representative democracy.
Why do you keep throwing around the insults aimed at people who voted Leave Dazh?! What do you have against them?
I think I’m more fearful of the consequences of that than actually leaving the EU.
What do you think might happen? (serious question)
No dazh, you were called an alt right apologist for arguing that the way to stop the alt right was to implement their policies for them. That instead of fighting back and educating people about the real situation we should just implement policy based on lies and fearmongering.
Why do you keep throwing around the insults
There's a hefty dose of irony there which you may have missed. Depends on which leavers you mean though. There are undoubtedly many idiots, mostly the UKIP/BP loons who inhabit the fringes and are in a tiny minority. I actually quite admire many leavers. It takes quite a leap of faith and not a little courage to vote against the status quo even though the benefits of doing so are very uncertain.
Cougar. I have an opinion that is different to yours, sorry if you think that’s brass neck territory, you sound like one of them shouty leavers dont you think?.
Apologies here, reading back I worded that badly. I didn't mean you, personally, rather the people generally who are shouting about "democracy" whilst simultaneously trying to silence the opposition.
It isn’t ridiculous to suggest that any sort of overturning of the biggest democratic vote in British history is very dangerous.
You keep saying this. Adding the word "democratic" into a sentence doesn't automatically make it so. Mob rule is not a democracy.
The uncomfortable truth is that what you - or I - want doesn't matter. Leave won an opinion poll by a statistically insignificant margin over three years ago, big whoop. Parliament is sovereign, I thought that was supposed to be important.
You are wrong, leaving the EU with a similar agreement to what we have now without the cherries is actually a better deal than what we have now. Better for the EU which means better for us in the long game.
How exactly will we better off?
The EU27 potentially might be I suppose, they're probably sick to the back teeth of us by now.
No doubt Cougar will be along soon with his well-rehearsed remainsplaining lecture on the functioning of representative democracy.
Mansplaining? I wasn't aware you'd undergone gender reassignment. But it's clearly still necessary, see above.
The problem isn't an actual loss of democracy. The problem is the perception of that. And you can throw in emotive little digs all you like, that doesn't change that.
Mansplaining?
Read it again 😉
alt right apologist
Care to explain the non-pedantic difference between this and nazi appeaser? You know full well that any suggestions of giving ground to the far right has huge WW2 connotations regarding appeasement. And for the record I said if the price of preserving democracy was leaving the EU then so be it. I can't be arsed rehashing the argument but there's a long way between that and appeasing the far right.
Read it again 😉
Ah, whoops.
I said if the price of preserving democracy was leaving the EU then so be it.
Well, it isn't, so we might as well call the whole thing off then.
I can't remember if this has been posted here before or not but it's probably worth a reprint.
The government's own analysis on the concerns around "no deal." This isn't remain propaganda, "project fear" or tabloid headlines, it's an actual report from DExEU itself. It's a lengthy document but the conclusions are up front and you'll probably get the gist after the first couple of pages.
Anyone vote for all that?