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For most it was about kicking the politicians and Establishment in the teeth.
By giving them carte Blanche to do as they wish with the country 🙂
itching to get out of EU rule.
Which we sat at the table and could veto an generally er decide the rules.
Sorry for being a smart ass, I hate both EU and our Gov but think that the non elite people are less likely to get shafted by the EU.
(Edit - hates probably to strong a word and possibly unhappy with both is more applicable)
Yeah taking us out of the EU & giving the establishment even more power to screw us all over seems like a daft way to punish 'the establishment'
'Get Brexit done' is the latest 'brexit means brexit' just as empty and just a deceptive when we have to spend then the next decade repeating the last 3 years as we argue over the future relationship & 40+ ftas...
kicking the politicians and Establishment in the teeth
A lot of people voted Remain in 2016 (and this point is probably true of even more of those who would vote Remain now) not because they thought leaving the EU was in itself some kind of morally or philosophically bad thing, but because they didn’t trust those proposing that leaving the EU would improve their lives, or the lives of anyone they knew. They could see an attempt to grab power by Johnson, Farage and co… could see who was financially backing them, and didn’t exactly see them empowering the ‘people’ once they had leveraged themselves into power, they knew they’d only be acting in their own interests. That three years down the line there are still people saying that people voted against politicians and the establishment, while backing Boris f c i g Johnson as PM do deliver a great nebulous change for the better, or even more oddly thinking Tice, Farage, Banks and others are looking to improve their lives, says it all to me.
‘Get Brexit done’ is the latest ‘brexit means brexit’ just as empty and just a deceptive when we have to spend then the next decade repeating the last 3 years as we argue over the future relationship & 40+ ftas…
TBH using the EU as an excuse for everything worked well the first time round so may as well continue.
The electoral commission states a referndum campaign must be nine months. You can argue this is a political decision intended to stymie a second scots referendum but electortal commission guidance really has to be adhered to to make it legally watertight
Why does an advisory referendum need to be legally watertight? Genuine question, the whole court case a little while ago hinged on the very fact that it didn't have any legal basis for a mandate.
Remains always been a shit sell tbh.
Selling fake promises and Unicorns is way simpler than selling what you’ve already got (which is taken for granted till it’s gone).
Indeed, and it hurt us badly. Plenty of people voted leave as a synonym for "change." Ie, this is shit, let's try something - anything - else.
Revoke, remain, reform. That last bit is really important.
I think that’s optimistic now @Cougar… in the short to medium term at least it is likely to be… revoke, remain, opt-out… we are not about to regain a central role in setting the course for the EU, we’ve lost that for a generation thanks to all this Brexit infighting… we’re going to be “on the edge” of the EU for the foreseeable future… in or out… member or not. We’ve given up control that can not be reclaimed. It’s all about keeping the benefits or not now… neither leaving or remaining will make us a leader in the EU again. We are weakened. Which is all that some wanted from Brexit really… to soften us up on the world stage.
Perhaps they thought that leaving the EU would make the situation worse rather than better.
^^^ This pretty well summed up my attitude to how I voted ^^^
I voted remain,I'm a reluctant remainer. There's nothing that has happened since the referendum to change my opinion,sadly events have just confirmed my cynicism.
Edit
Do people think the EU will grant us another extension? I read that Macron was reluctant last time. Surely the EU are just as tired of all the Brexit stuff as we are & want to move on with their other business,with or without the UK?
If it wasn’t for Ireland, I’d suspect we’d be told “ta ta” at the end of the month. But the governments of many EU countries genuinely want to look after the interests of another member state… any extension granted is for Ireland really, not the UK (well, not for England, more specifically).
Oh no there’s a supertrawler in our waters be able to stop it after Brexit thou...
Hang on wasn't there a certain mep something Garage who could have prevented that.
Or did we sell the rights TBH in the need for greed world your never quite sure.
Do people think the EU will grant us another extension?
Yep or they’ve gotta build a border.
It’s an upside for Boris that someone else will have to sort his mess out over there in the event of no-deal.
The time limits imposed by A50 are all a bit pants but tbh no one ever thought anyone would be stupid enough to use it, most people are desperate to get in the club.
A successful Brexit would probably worked if we’d actually not signed it but put a letter of intention to leave and some bumf over what we wanted to achieve possibly not having a million red lines to start with.
It’s like an untrade deal in reality but populism and point scoring.
some bumf over what we wanted to achieve
We still haven’t determined that, and probably never will… we just need to ‘get Brexit done’ and then scrabble around working out what to do with it, and how, after we have left, in a rush and without proper security. I’m sure Johnson, Raab, Mogg and co will do what’s best for all of us plebs, not just what’s right for them and their associates, honest.
but it was clearly decided to leave,
Clearly?
opt-out…
Of what?
we are not about to regain a central role in setting the course for the EU, we’ve lost that for a generation thanks to all this Brexit infighting…
I wasn't really meaning "reform" the EU (though that would be nice) so much as putting our own house in order. Most of the concerns raised by leavers (back in 2016 at any rate) were domestic issues we'd scapegoated onto the EU / foreigners. It's well within our power to tighten up our immigration laws for instance, and that was a primary leave driver.
considering the large liberal majority in the remain camp doesnt make much sense i would have thought they would be itching to get out of EU rule.
EU rule?
What most leavers forget is that we were a huge part of the EU. There was no 'them'. We were one of the biggest influences on it. You had democratic representatives and they influenced policy.
We weren't being rules by the EU, we were taking a share in the partial ruling of the whole EU.
As for why liberals like the EU, maybe it's because the EU is big, strong and can enforce environmental standards and worker protections. These things require rules that reduce profitability; that's why it needs to be done at a supra national level, it means all the major trading partners have to stick to the same rules. Brexit ****s this up and WILL result in reduced environmental protection when we need more.
The time limits imposed by A50 are all a bit pants but tbh no one ever thought anyone would be stupid enough to use it, most people are desperate to get in the club.
Yep, 2 years sounds a bit made up/guessed. I imagine one thing the EU will do now is put the time limit at 10 years so anyone else that wants to leave just gets on with it over those 10 years with wasting everyone's time.
The under 22's aren't being ignored. They can campaign for joining the EU via the usual process. The UK can rejoin the EU when we vote to do so. You can't be suggesting we keep having referendums every time people become eligible to vote just in case they impact the original vote?
With a new ref on various leave deals the electorate get the right to decide how we leave. We can rejoin if it doesn't workout.
I think the Remain side should really be selling the (well, pre-2016) status quo as “The Deal”
Because it was a good compromise.
The largest democratic vote in British history rejected that option and decided to leave but something very close to it could still be put forward as a soft and sensual leave option.
Happy days.
The UK can rejoin the EU when we vote to do so.
No, it can rejoin IF the government of the day offers us a vote on it.
The Tory party is fighting the Brexit party for the right wing of the electorate - the rest of us are being ignored, as demonstrated by polls. The majority of people want a different option, but because there's a Brexit party the Tories are throwing us all under a bus to keep votes from the Brexit party's hands.
No, it can rejoin IF the government of the day offers us a vote on it.
Yep we’re passengers in this given the odd vote when offered the chance.
‘We’ actually have very little say other than pick our overlords but even that’s skewed with FPTP.
And who votes for the government of the day? Brexit badness will mean an easy win for someone
Hmm. If we leave, then the Brexit party is gone. So a new party that campaigns on rejoining would pick up a lot of votes especially if things have got worse.
We can join the EU whenever we like in the future via the usual channels
Good luck.
Yep, 2 years sounds a bit made up/guessed
Well for maximum irony Lord Kerr (we wrotez it.)
Kerr imagined that the exit procedure might be triggered after an authoritarian leader took power in a member country and the EU responded by suspending that country’s right to vote on EU decisions.
It seemed to me very likely that a dictatorial regime would then, in high dudgeon, want to storm out. And to have a procedure for storming out seemed to be quite a sensible thing to do — to avoid the legal chaos of going with no agreement,” Kerr said.
Ahhh a dictorial regime , do you reckon the sort that may try and stop parliament sitting or attempt to subvert the will of parliament.
We can join the EU whenever we like in the future via the usual channels
Good luck.
Yeah we had a really good rebate the first time round when we had a real prime minister who could negotiate. (who for all her evilneess wasn’t in it for herself.) As opposed to a ditch dodger.
We can join the EU whenever we like in the future via the usual channels
Good luck.
I wouldn't be so sure that the EU would let the UK back in even if the UK voted to return.
If the EU do allow the UK back in it will be on worse terms than the current one's
It has been stated many times that the UK can re apply for EU membership. Worse terms / better terms meh, who decides what's better or worse? Times change.
The largest democratic vote in British history rejected that option and decided to leave but something very close to it could still be put forward as a soft and sensual leave option.
Once again, NOT the largest democratic vote in British history, the largest number of people voting for a single option, but nowhere near the largest percentage vote and also not the largest turnout. And advisory.
Fact check here
:o) It depends on interpretation and your link is talking about exercise rather than vote
Yes It's the largest democratic vote in British history. FAct Check Here
It has been stated many times that the UK can re apply for EU membership. Worse terms / better terms meh, who decides what’s better or worse? Times change.
Lol.
The EU will decide the terms of membership for a country wanting to join.
It would include joining the euro currency, shengen, and we wouldn't have any of the rebates we currently have.
That's just off the top of my head. There's probably more.
That's undeniably worse than the custom deal we currently have.
Leave or remain has been clearly decided
By what, a tiny majority? Against those who knew what they were voting for and could actually be arsed to get out of bed and vote for the status quo?
The single biggest block that voted in that referendum knew what they were voting for. The other lot were voting for who knows what?
Oh, and what Matt said.
Yes It’s the largest democratic vote in British history
And ?
Well it would it being the one which utilised the most sophisticated techniques of swing vote manipulation 🙂
And Unicorns never undestimate the selling power of Unicorns.
lol indeed. The shortsighted might consider those undeniably worse, others might see it as better for the EU as a whole which supersedes little Britains rebate or hatred of the euro. Times change.
The largest democratic vote in British history clearly decided to leave, now we need a new ref on the type of deal to leave with. On we go.
Onbackwards we go
Can one of the options be BRINO in you scenario. That's still leaving isn't it?
The largest democratic vote in British history clearly decided to leave, now we need a new ref on the type of deal to leave with. On we go.
I'd happily leave IF we got a better deal than the deal we currently have with the EU.
The thing is though,after 3 years of 'negotiating' no one's come up with a deal that I think is an improvement on the UK's current EU deal.
The largest democratic vote in British history clearly decided to leave, now we need a new ref on the type of deal to leave with. On we go.
Why can't we ask again, now we know more? What's wrong with knowing how people think currently? What's wrong with people changing their minds?
clearly decided to leave,
Lol!
52/48 percent is clear?
What would you consider to be unclear? 51/49%?
51.5/49.5?
hahaha..
And what was NEVER discussed at the time is how we should leave - what we should end up with after. Given that massive problem, and the problems it's caused, another ref (or refs) are entirely reasonable.
I'm sick of writing and reading analogies for this, so I won't bother with another.
I’d happily leave IF we got a better deal than the deal we currently have with the EU.
The thing is though,after 3 years of ‘negotiating’ no one’s come up with a deal that I think is an improvement on the UK’s current EU deal.
No better deal is possible. We were (and are) pinned down. The EU are the much bigger and more powerful party in the negotiations - how on earth would they ever have given us a better deal than their members get? They cannot let leaving look better than staying, otherwise everyone would leave, obviously.
Hmm. If we leave, then the Brexit party is gone
Yes, but like with UKIP Farage will just find a new thing to rally against. He will continue to be a far right thorn in the Tory's side.
It has been stated many times that the UK can re apply for EU membership.
Just because it has been stated, doesn't necessarily make it so.
More lols and some ha ha's too, excellent, clearly decided can still be a close contest, it was clearly decided.
51.5/49.5?
Yes I would be very concerned about this result, Lols, ha,ha, he,he :o)
Molgrips, how many times can we ask? Best of 3 or maybe 5, why would anyone accept any result ever again? The question was asked and clearly decided now we need a new ref on the type of leave deal to move forward. A soft and sensual leave option should be an option which would be similar to our current agreement without some cherries.
Alpin, are you implying we can't trust the EU and it's officials? I'll trust them more than I trust you thanks.