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I thought the legislation was to ask for a specific extension, if this was offered it was automatically accepted, it the EU offered a different date it had to be taken to parliament for a vote to accept/reject/counter offer.
Also Spiderman is almost as annoying as Brexit.
I Agree completely, slow old man
.. Revoke article 50, dealing with the fringe gammons will be child's play compared to the alternatives.
I'm not really seeing a mechanism to revoke unless the Liberal Democrats get a majority coalition though, via a general election.
And a general election at this point is unlikely to deliver that, whilst corbyn is still pissing into the wind.
A general election right now would be very very bad.
Prime minister Cummings needs to be forced to secure an extension to alow breathing space for maneuvers.
Trump impeached
Brexit cancelled
Spiderman staying in the MCU
The latter being the least likely. Thanks, Sony.
Force the extension then the election then a referendum
The tories will be toast after an extension. Brexit party will split their vote. lib dems will take votes and seats in the south, SNP will clean up in scotland, Labour will hold on to most of the north.
Hung parliament it has to be another referendum
Well let's be honest, it will be a hung parliament either way.
Extension, then a referendum, then a general election.
Can't be done that way Matty - a second referendum would take too long. Nine months is what the electoral commission states. NO "government of national unity" could hold together that long and do you want to leave Johnson there that long?
It doesn’t have to take anywhere near that long… but… agreed… a multi multi party coalition is unlikely to hold on long enough for it to happen… but… an election could return a house that needs to form a multi multi party coalition to do any thing anyway! It really isn’t looking like any party will get the numbers to rule alone… unless the Brexit Party packs up and leaves the Conservative Brexit Party to romp home with a majority.
So the Telegraph going with Hungary veto.
Still struggle to see Cummings plan here. No deal would be followed by a VONC surely and then election. The immediate disruption after a no deal will be very visual, real and plainly obvious to the electorate, and even with Brexit Party votes surely enough sane Tory voters would switch to LD or LAB. It would also cement SNP into Scotland.
I can't see how no deal benefits Cummings in an election.
It doesn’t have to take anywhere near that long…
It does is it is to be presented as actual facts.
The electoral commission states a referndum campaign must be nine months. You can argue this is a political decision intended to stymie a second scots referendum but electortal commission guidance really has to be adhered to to make it legally watertight
this is why the labour suggestion is for an interim government that last a few days - just long enough to ensure an extension is sought and granted and then it will be dissolved for an election
Once again - a parliament with no overall control does not mean coalitions are needed
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/second-referendum-brexit
A fair estimate is that the whole process would take a minimum of 21 weeks, but this would be much shorter than other recent referendums.
Once again – a parliament with no overall control does not mean coalitions are needed
True. But whatever agreements a minority government uses to govern could be just as delicate after the election as before. That a government might not hold on long enough for referendum before an election, as you point out, is true. But a government after the election could have the exact same, or even worse, parliamentary arithmetic to work with.
<3 months for a ref seems fair
Let's be honest we could have it tomorrow
Everyone is already a brexpert and knows which way they are likely to vote
Extension, then a referendum, then a general election.
That assumes the Tories would call for a second referendum. I think that's unlikely, so - extension, election, referendum.
Let’s be honest we could have it tomorrow
Everyone is already a brexpert and knows which way they are likely to vote
No I think some of campaign would still be needed, though how it would be better than the last one I don't know. Both sides were pathetic last time. Anyway, ideally no referendum but something like a royal commission which is what I think should have been done in 2016.
A Royal Commission is a new one on me - how would that work...?
Edit: so I just googled. This would seem to be the right thing to have done immediately post-referendum, or even before even having one, but maybe might be controversial now. But really, the government saying "the only way out of this impasse is to appoint a royal commission and we'll stand by the outcome", with appropriate terms of reference might be a decent way of taking some heat out of the situation, and start to reduce the ridiculous division that now exist between those who want out, and those who don't, with the entrenched positions on both sides.
Another referendum makes good sense
Leave or remain has been clearly decided so the new referendum should be about the type of deal.
Soft,Hard or single beds.
mattyfez
Well let’s be honest, it will be a hung parliament either way.
Do we have enough lamp-posts?
Good ol' Boris and Cummings - the blame everyone else narrative is coming on well...
https://news.sky.com/story/pm-to-eu-were-packing-our-bags-will-you-cheerily-wave-us-off-11828738
Soft brexit could be a sort of leave in name only, a similar arrangement to what we have now without the cherries, pay a bit more, lose some influence but life stays the same
Hard brexit could be a similar deal to the excellent May/EU agreement
Single beds could be no deal
It breaks the deadlock and keeps democracy alive. Problem solved. Goodnight.
exsee
Member
Soft brexit could be a sort of leave in name only, a similar arrangement to what we have now without the cherries, pay a bit more, lose some influence but life stays the same
Yup. And we've now established that all votes for brexit are a vote for any brexit you like no matter how hard, so nobody could complain if it goes the other way. Right?
I dunno about that, we've certainly established both the remain and leave votes were a very mixed bag of reasons, a new ref on the type of deal would suit both teams well without cheating anyone.
so nobody could complain if it goes the other way
i think you might be trolling with that one :o)
a new ref on the type of deal would suit both teams well without cheating anyone.
Well, apart from everyone under 22 that is.
Nope, they would still have their right to campaign to join the EU through the usual channels. Lib dems could become the 'join the EU asap' party
exsee - nope - remain votes were all for one thing - to stay in the EU as we are. Leave vote were for all sorts of differnt outcomes 99% of which were based on lies
And again nope - any future ref must be remain v leave. Polls show strongly that the population wants to stay
Exsee, once you acknowledge that we need another ref to decide what brexit means, you're admitting that the first ref was carried out with people not knowing what they were voting for
Invalidates the whole shitshow
Time to ditch brexit, move on & deal with the actual problems the country faces
Time to ditch brexit, move on & deal with the actual problems the country faces
Ha ha , you really think its going to be that easy don’t you?
Time to ditch brexit, move on & deal with the actual problems the country faces
Yep, apart from to do that the parties who have been in power for the last 20 years (mainly Tory) would have to admit that the actual problems are down to their decisions and are not the fault of EU, immigrants, financial crisis or any other excuse they can think of.
I could see a party like the Green party being able to do it but with 1 MP it maybe a struggle...
Project Fear was wrong (but less wrong than Economists for Brexit and getting more right over time)
https://twitter.com/ChrisGiles_/status/1180543762205986821
Ha ha , you really think its going to be that easy don’t you?
It is easy. You just need to believe.
Project Fear was wrong
Yup, it underestimated how hard a Brexit would be aimed for, it underestimated the impact and didn't take into account the viscious circle it would start. It still hasn't happened yet and the impact is already at project fear levels.
Try reading the Twitter thread.
tjagain, nope both remain and leave votes were for all sorts of different reasons but it was clearly decided to leave, it was a good turnout and a very large cross section of society decided, now a new ref needs to decide on the type of deal. This suits both teams and allows us to break the deadlock
We need an independent and 'as impartial as possible' body to set up a new ref with a handful of genuine deal options /EU approved options/. A well put together ref that doesn't allow for vote splitting trickery from either side
Works well for the EU as well.
Jobbies a goodun.
Really? What different reasons were there to remain?
Remains always been a shit sell tbh.
Selling fake promises and Unicorns is way simpler than selling what you’ve already got (which is taken for granted till it’s gone).
Some voted because they fear change
some voted because they wanted to fly to Europe willy nilly
some voted because they were scared of losing value in their house
some voted because they thought their income would go down
some voted because they love the EU and everything it stands for
some voted because they wanted open borders
some voted because of the customs union
some voted so their children can work in Europe later in life
ETC ETC ETC ETC.
It was a basic ref question with a simple leave/remain choice. That has been decided now we move to filter the type of deal. Break the deadlock and move forward. We can join the EU whenever we like in the future via the usual channels
Problem solved unless you are at either end of the spectrum and nobody cares about those oddbods anyway
ETC ETC ETC ETC
But… can all those “reasons” be concurrently addressed by staying in the EU, or are they multually exclusive, or just simply very elusive, as many “reasons” to vote Leave in 2016 were?
Exsee remain may have been for different reasons (that which was most important to the voter) but there can only be one version of remain which everyone voted for. Remain means remain. See that actually makes sense.
The opposite cannot be said for leave. By choosing only a leave option you would immediately be disenfranchising almost half of everyone that voted and not giving a good proportion of leave voters the version they wanted. It is the solution that suits nobody and exactly what we have right now.
Problem solved unless you are at either end of the spectrum and nobody cares about those oddbods anyway
Which spectrum? We are already in a situation where even politicians proposing that we leave the EU with a transition period and a bridging agreement are attacked as traitorous remainers. Any referendum between two Leave options will soon descend into a reframing of the debate as “Brexit” and “not real Brexit”, despite both options being seen as less preferable to remaining an EU member by over half of voters (now, not back in 2016… remember all those under 22 voters you are happy not to have a say).
It was a basic ref question with a simple leave/remain choice. That has been decided now we move to filter the type of deal.
Wasn’t on the paper so doesn’t count 🙂
‘we’ were asked leave/remain the type of deal wasn’t an option and there was no mention of a follow up vote.
Definition of ‘Leaving’ changes on a day by day basis.
I think the Remain side should really be selling the (well, pre-2016) status quo as "The Deal"
Because it was a good compromise.
Tbh ‘Remain means Remain’ is actually a true meaningful statement whereas
‘Brexit means Brexit’ means er fk all.
And when your PM starts spouting shite like that it’s probably time to get off the bus.
Yep, apart from to do that the parties who have been in power for the last 20 years
Very true and thats why 17.4 million voted for Brexit. For most it was about kicking the politicians and Establishment in the teeth. I believe that those who did not vote for Brexit were fairly happy with the status quo which, considering the large liberal majority in the remain camp doesnt make much sense i would have thought they would be itching to get out of EU rule.
Perhaps they thought that leaving the EU would make the situation worse rather than better.