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Corbyn still at it..
would opt to stay out of campaigning in a second referendum on a Labour-negotiated Brexit deal
Good.
Matty - they didn't have to do it - and they did not think it would end badly. ~they made a series of huge political miscalculations. S&C would have been so much better all round - but no - they wanted those ministerial cars.
Its the total lack of willingness to admit they made a huge blunder and caused so much damage that gets me.
Its not just student fees - thats a minor point. Its 10 000 dead from austerity, its the bigotted policies they enabled, its the huge damage to public services - none of which was needed its the whole EU referendum - they could have stopped all that by doing S&C
they sold their principles for a ministerial jag and that all they got in return
Look at what they voted for during the coalition - call themselves liberal?
and they achieved and ameliorated absolutly nothing
Nothing to do with lefties getting twitchy - the lib dems will not make any siugnificant gains and by bet is that they end up with less MPs than they have now and Swinson loses her seat.
However people banging on about how they abandoned their principles for a bit of power is just ridiculous,
Almost as ridiculous as your simplification. No one is saying they should keep everything in their manifesto but when you make something a headline ****ing pledge and go around signing a bit of paper specifically for this one pledge then breaking it is rather poor. Especially when you are so incompetent as to allow the other party to completely undermine your other main policy.
That said in the Lib dems case it really isnt obvious whether they abandoned their principles or rather actually followed them and instead lied to both their party membership and the electorate.
Clegg was known to be not to be a fan of the lib dem position on opposing tuition fees. So it seems a bit convenient that it got abandoned.
Can you take this age old tuition fees stuff to another thread now? I’m still annoyed it happened, but it’s not really on topic, is it.
I can't be bothered, but can someone open /start a new thread, possibly titled 'lib dems are scum and Labour are brilliant?'
I feel its distracting from the national emergency of brexit.
Can you take this age old tuition fees stuff to another thread now? I’m still annoyed it happened, but it’s not really on topic, is it.
They’re just lashing out because Magic Grandpa’s fence sitting and dithering has left him looking a right tit. To be fair, anyone who kept more than a casual eye on Brexit knew this already, but even the moderate public at large (who have lives to be getting on with) are saying ‘hang on a minute, shouldn’t it be Labour that are doing the actual opposing?’ But no, deafening silence. Again. Any halfway capable politician would have knocked the Tories into a cocked hat by now. That Corbyn has managed to balls this up is just risible.
I bet myself a beer that tuition fees would get trotted out sooner or later by one of the comrades. It was a lovely drop too.
Lol Kelvin.. I put my phone down for 20 mins..
At least we have a consensus.. Haha
Swinson playing a blinder?
Even 17% of leave voters agree !!!
Can you take this age old tuition fees stuff to another thread now
If it was a different set of players in charge of the Libdems the argument of it being a long time back would work. However since its the same players its not unreasonable to judge them by their actions when they last held power.
Still happy to stop pointing out that the libdems have been doing the big boy did it and ran away excuse a bit too much if the fanatics stop coming out with their hilarious "comrades" and other politically illiterate statements.
This country is ****ed looking at that graph hahah, I think we just need the CIA and FSB to supply both sides with weapons so we can have it out. There is no way either side will give up.
Any halfway capable politician would have knocked the Tories into a cocked hat by now.
Says you.
The whole thing is a poison chalice. Three years ago coming out for either side would have ruined them. Corbyn had no choice but to do what he did. You're massively oversimplifying it by moaning he didn't do what you wanted and end up leading the good guys home to cheers and applause.
What you call lack of leadership _could_ just as easily be caution and care. Don't confuse leadership with bluster and hyperbole.
Even 17% of leave voters agree !!!
I would want to see a follow up making sure they all understood a political majority can be way under 50%. Although of course they could be taking the strategic approach of saying since the chances of that happening are well under 17% might as well say yes since it if doesnt happen then can do the opposite.
Reading the legal goings on today was fascinating. Poor day for the government seems to be the consensus but as the pundits say second guessing judges is never easy.
I can't wait for John Majors testimony - an ex troy PM appearing in court to oppose another tory PM - great spectator sport.
And some fine names - QCs pannik and Keen!
I would want to see a follow up making sure they all understood a political majority can be way under 50%.
No party can ever win 50% of the vote at a general election because it is not a national two option referendum! It is hundreds of individual elections with differing candidate sheets, some of which the main parties don’t even get involved with due to the different political history of our four countries.
You just keep finding new ways of beating the same drum of “old Referendum trumps subsequent elections” and then act all “I said nothing of the sort” when anyone tries to address that idea.
Hopefully at some point the undeliverable shape of Brexit from back in 2016 will get identified as such by more and more of the population, and voters, and finally … politicians and their parties.
Yeh I was following a live feed off and on, early days..
Interesting debate from both sides, it's a 2 sided argument..
I think it will all hinge on whether the courts are allowed to judge.
If it's deemed they are, boris is done for.
If it's deemed they they can't, I'll be tapping up my grandmother for the couple of grand I'll need to get my Irish citizenship and EU passport.
I'm not sure that corbyn with a front page Guardian splash explaining how he will sit on the fence even more is going to help him get those votes back
I can also see the vast majority of his MPs & his membership rolling their eyes 👀 and thinking the conference is gonna be a big dissapointment
The second thing I'm most bored with after "yes but fish" is the tuition fees thing.
Yes, they dropped the ball, and they could have handled it better subsequently. But like fish it's just become a lazy stick to beat the LDs with, just like with Labour and Iraq. All parties have had policies which they've seen through or reneged on, yet none of the other issues ever get a look in.
Ragging the LDs because of some other screw-up you dislike, yeah fair enough, but the tuition fees issue is just a brainless copy & paste argument because you don't like the party and don't have anything better to throw. If this is your argument then I'd put it to you, "name a second issue."
Politics is complicated. Brexit is complex. I'd wager that the vast vast majority of voters in 2016 were single-issue voters, they didn't know what to do so for example voted leave because they wanted to give more money to the NHS.
We're still doing it, in both camps. "I can't support the LDs because of a single decision a different set of people made a decade ago." Personally I can't get behind the Tories because Thatcher took free milk out of schools.
It's bloody ridiculous, the sooner we get stop obsessing about the past the better. The sooner we get over personal prejudices the better. Inertia is what's killing democracy, we all have laudable ideals until it tweaks a personal nerve.
point missed cougar. Its not the tuition fees thing only - that is just representative of the betrayal. Its the support for a vile tory government that did so much damage and led us into this mess we are in now. Its the fact they gave away all their power for a ministerial jag and some meaningless posts, its the fact they are completely unrepentant for the harm they caused via the coalition, its the fact that Swinson is now the single biggest obstacle to stopping no deal because of her refusal to work with labour. Its the fact that what was once a radical liberal party is now occupying the ground vacated by the tories in their move right to give us a lib dem tory lite party and above all else its the complete betrayal of the people who voted for them
The whole thing is a poison chalice. Three years ago coming out for either side would have ruined them. Corbyn had no choice but to do what he did. You’re massively oversimplifying it by moaning he didn’t do what you wanted and end up leading the good guys home to cheers and applause.
What you call lack of leadership _could_ just as easily be caution and care. Don’t confuse leadership with bluster and hyperbole.
He has had over three years to expose the lies and bullshit. Three years to cautiously pull his core voters around. They say a week is a long time in politics. Not for grandpa.
You think we still live in past times. Lol. The majority of the electorate now decide based on stuff they see on social media and what Debbie at work (who is a bit older) say.
He’s also had 3 years to come up with a shadow Brexit plan take it to Europe, get it signed off by them then say “look I’ve got this vote for me”.
But he hasn’t.
its the fact that Swinson is now the single biggest obstacle to stopping no deal because of her refusal to work with labour.
It's ironic, given that you are calling it an issue of trust, that the reason the LDs are quite rightly reluctant to work with Labour is that Labour have shown themselves utterly untrustworthy on the subject of Brexit.
Labour have shown themselves utterly untrustworthy on the subject of Brexit.
You only think this because they haven’t done exactly what you want. Remainers May be able to dismiss the concerns of leave voters or call them morons but labour don’t have that luxury. It’s very easy to throw your dummy out the pram and pretend this is simple. It really isn’t though, and Labour are the only party which is serious about finding a sustainable, long term solution to this nightmare which the majority can accept.
You only think this because they haven’t done exactly what you want.
Unfortunately, all groups, wanting all outcomes, don’t trust Corbyn on Brexit. Not those wanting a hard Brexit. Not those wanting a referendum. Not those wanting an EEA type relationship with Europe. Not those wanting to keep EU membership. Not those wanting a No Deal Brexit.
He’s also had 3 years to come up with a shadow Brexit plan take it to Europe, get it signed off by them
Is a 'shadow' Brexit plan and agreement of said plan with the EU actually possible or have you just made that up?
Drafting a new political declaration and challenging the government to move towards it very much could be thing. Well, except it can’t, because as soon as it is written down it can be pulled apart and shown to be lacking.
The EU aren’t going to “sign” anything that doesn’t come from the government though, obviously, they’d be painted as meddling in domestic politics then.
You only think this because they haven’t done exactly what you want.
No, I've done this because he has been thoroughly shifty throughout the last 3 years.
Remainers May be able to dismiss the concerns of leave voters or call them morons but labour don’t have that luxury.
Perhaps he could have tried being honest? I have a sneaking suspicion that might have been a winning policy.
It’s not Corbyn you need to trust, it’s the voters in a new referendum. Seems like remainers don’t have the confidence of their convictions though.
Those wanting a referendum don’t trust Corbyn either … you’re missing out so
many steps to jump to a referendum happening with no fudge or deception. Corbyn still needs to earn the trust of those that think a referendum is part of the path we should take, because, well, people have been watching him since he became leader.
its not unreasonable to judge them by their actions when they last held power.
Which was 1910.
Personally I can’t get behind the Tories because Thatcher took free milk out of schools.
But of a digression but Thatcher was opposed to that policy. She carried it out but she opposed it in cabinet. In fact it was driven by the Treasury under Iain Macleod and later Anthony Barber:
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-the-thatcher-myths
A lot of Labour seem to be of the opinion that:
Michael Chessum, from AEP, said: “Labour has already crossed the Rubicon in promising a public vote with an option to remain. It would be utterly absurd, in those circumstances, for Labour not to campaign for remain when 90% of its members want to stay in the EU. Trying to prevent Labour from backing remain is a dead end for Corbyn – it will inevitably fail and it risks the morale of our base at at a crucial moment.”
I've highlighted the bit with the elephantine cognitive dissonance problem.
Just so as you're clear, that's why he's not trusted.
If he was taking a clear stand for ref and remain, it would be quite straightforward to get behind him.
As it is, all he promises is a bit more uncertainty.
With the whole lib Dem thing, tuition fees and coalition...
For me personally it was the actual coalition itself that smelt bad.
Then over time,after the lib dems got shafted my opinions changed a fair amount. I think they did their best, with not that many cards to play, of limiting what Tory governments always do. Relish the good times and scapegoat the poor or weak when beneficial.
In actually quite grateful to them for at least trying to keep the Tories (which I detest) under a modicum of control.
Anyway, another SNP policy I approve of, down here south of the border
Can I just counter that, SNP never abolished tuition fees regardless of policy, it was the Libs as a condition of the Lib/Lab coalition. SNP abolished the student endowment which was a later graduate tax. To be fair Labour have tried to take credit for it as well.
Amazing how things get repeated so often they become the new truth.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-the-thatcher-myths.
Don't come here with facts about Thatcher otherwise people who hate her for some things she was meant to have done will be forced to admit it wasn't entirely her behind all those things. pretend they are not true.
It’s not Corbyn you need to trust, it’s the voters in a new referendum. Seems like remainers don’t have the confidence of their convictions though.
Corbyn has constantly failed to inform the electorate about the damage that brexit will do, instead promising a labour unicorns brexit, as he has done again in the past 24 hours.
Corbyn does not oppose brexit, he has again stated that he will negotiate a brexit, now it is just that he has been dragged kicking and screaming to have a referendum on that brexit.
The tories are threatening to cut off both legs, Corbyn is saying "with me you can have one leg won't that be great imagine the possibilities" I want someone to just stand up and say the obvious, that losing 1 or 2 legs is beyond shit, to deliberately cut peoples legs off is insane, lets just let everyone keep their ****ing legs.
tjagain
...its the fact that Swinson is now the single biggest obstacle to stopping no deal because of her refusal to work with labour.
It's the beautiful irony that if anti-independence Swinson actually manages to get enough to form a govt, she'll be personally hobbled by EVEL because she's a Scottish MP.
But with a bit of luck, she won't have a seat by then.
It would be utterly absurd, in those circumstances, for Labour not to campaign for remain when 90% of its members want to stay in the EU.
So, with the small matter of conference this month, will the membership try to impose this policy on the leadership team? We hear a lot about policy being set by conference, so it would seem to be a convenient moment.
(Obviously, all the Remain inclinations got squished into a composite motion last time, which is why we've had the flowchart policy on Brexit ever since.)
Thanks @squirrelking. Much as I’d love this thread to move onto EU related chat… that was a genuine education. Much appreciated. We all have huge holes in our understanding of Scottish politics down here.
beautiful irony...
...could be illustrated by taking a person who is against Brexit because of the huge damage it would do to the UK but is for Scottish independence despite similar outcomes once you look at the border. Then there is the irony of believing that a small representation at the EU parliament is a good thing but a larger representation at Westminster is anti democratic.
Wanting an independent Scotland in the EU is a desire for stability now, in my opinion. Some got this years before me though…
https://twitter.com/bencooper/status/1174215440605880321?s=21
Back then, and now, I still want Scotland to stay in the UK, but it is entirely logical to call for both EU membership and for Scotland not to be ruled from Westminster. If I lived north of the border, I suspect by now I’d have come around to that position myself.
There is precedent for why Corbyn is acting the way he is...Ironically Heath had made moves to enter the EC, which Wilson principally backed, while rejecting the Tories' terms...
...Harold Wilson in opposition showed political ingenuity in devising a position that both sides of the party could agree on, opposing the terms negotiated by Heath but not membership in principle. Labour's 1974 manifesto included a pledge to renegotiate terms for Britain's membership and then hold a referendum on whether to stay in the EC on the new terms. This was a constitutional procedure without precedent in British history.
Sound familiar?
Except the border problem comes back once again. There is no way to square that circle without affecting trade and free movement between the two.
Yes, but with the UK leaving the EU there will be border problems anyway, unless there is a move to EEA+CU. Scotland has to cope with new borders and diverging trade regimes imposed on them by Westminster decisions. As I said, I want Scotland to stay in the UK… but it is not “hypocrisy” to want to see an independent Scotland in the EU (or in the EEA&CU instead if necessary).
On a related note… there are some politicians who want to avoid a transition period, and even more so customs arrangements that extend past the end of transition, because they know this could result in the best chance for talks about both Northern Ireland and Scotland seeking their own arrangements with the rest of Europe. Call them the “union without consent” Tories if you wish.
Sound familiar?
Hardly a surprise. Corbyn has signalled many times that he's going to take a Wilson approach. It's the right thing to do. Being the only party advocating a democratic solution is an excellent position to be in, and the 'Let the people decide' slogan will cut through the bullshit.
Can you take this age old tuition fees stuff to another thread now? I’m still annoyed it happened, but it’s not really on topic, is it.
It's spot on topic ... because it typifies how LEAVE won.
Underlying this is complete and utter mis-understanding of HOW a our parliametary democracy works (or doesn't) by a huge proportion of the electorate.
A history of both Labour and Conservatives and their blinkered supporters creating a 'them and us'.
FFS the Tory's were the ones pushing for tuition fee's ... but Labour were the ones who'd spent the money but neither seems to be able to accept the other's fact.
MEANWHILE .... whilst we bicker about Vile Tories and Commo Socialists social media gets leveraged to blame the EU for every ill. A large % of the electrorate seem fine with £350 million for the NHS and the easiest deal in history and it barely seems to even register that Farage is on record wanting to sell the NHS off... or David Davis the first EU negotiator and staunch Brexiteer failed to get the easiest deal ever... or that in 3 years no-one has negotiated a meaningful deal with anyone else.