We'll see, Kelvin.

Regardless of it's truth, I [s]suspect[/s] hope that enough politicans, even Tories, will think of it as true for the economics of hard brexit to become an issue.

Ultimately referenda are not compatible with a representative democracy - they undermine our parliament, which while imperfect, is probably pretty decent in the scheme of things.

Restore British democracy - let the MPs decide.

teamhurtmore - Member
keep the racists onside - tick
keep the nats offside and kill labour - tick
Tories keep power for the foreseeable...

She's no fool is she!!!

Nothing last forever but for now I support PM May.

molgrips - Member
We'll see, Kelvin.

Regardless of it's truth, I suspect hope that enough politicans, even Tories, will think of it as true for the economics of hard brexit to become an issue.

The day the politicians do that is the day we see the death of Western democracy.

igm plus 1

Chewk , which other ones would you vote for?

The day the politicians do that is the day we see the death of Western democracy.

Rubbish.

igm - Member
Ultimately referenda are not compatible with a representative democracy - they undermine our parliament, which while imperfect, is probably pretty decent in the scheme of things.

Restore British democracy - let the MPs decide.

The referendum is the fundamental of democracy that is above the rules of the land. You may delay it with all your might but you Cannot prevent it.

Even the British parliament MUST bow to the referendum.

In fact all Western democratic govts MUST bow to referendum as it is the easiest form of seeing democracy in action.

You do not see referendum in action everyday but if there is one then it must be damn important.

The day the politicians do that is the day we see the death of Western democracy.

Already turned up its toes if your take democracy as meaning the belief in freedom and equality between people rather than mob rule unless of course you believe that something akin to turkeys being duped into voting for Christmas is a proper expression of the democratic will of the majority of turkeys or a decision that no sensible turkey having all of the facts about Christmas to hand would have made.

The referendum is the fundamental of democracy that is above the rules of the land.

It really really really really isn't. Honestly.

if your take democracy as meaning the belief in freedom and equality between people

To be fair - that's never been any definition of the word.

The referendum is the fundamental of democracy that is above the rules of the land. You may delay it with all your might but you Cannot prevent it.

Even the British parliament MUST bow to the referendum.

Nope.

Read the Referendum Act 2015 [url= http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/36/pdfs/ukpga_20150036_en.pdf ]here[/url] and tell me where there is a clear and definite plan as to what happens in the event of either majority.

Also, 51.8% of the vote between two choices would not return an absolute mandate. It's a very, very slim margin.

In fact all Western democratic govts MUST bow to referendum as it is the easiest form of seeing democracy in action.

Go and read up on how a parliamentary democracy works.

zippykona - Member
Chewk , which other ones would you vote for?

Hanging. - Yes, twice.
Corporal punishment in schools. - Depends. Depends on who the teacher is.
[s]Ban [/s]gays. - What's the big deal? We have many 3rd gender in my part of the world so not an issue at all.
Ban mosques. - In certain areas ban for practical reason.
National service. - I am not sure because I like it while others don't.

PJM1974 - Member
Go and read up on how a [s]parliamentary [/s]democracy work

Nipper99 - Member
Already turned up its toes if your take democracy as meaning the belief in freedom and equality between people rather than mob rule unless of course you believe that something akin to turkeys being duped into voting for Christmas is a proper expression of the democratic will of the majority of turkeys or a decision that no sensible turkey having all of the facts about Christmas to hand would have made.

That's why I normally say that with Western [b]Demon[/b]cracy you have the pretense to be good side.

In fact it can be both ... just like the West rejecting the dictatorship of certain nations. If they have good dictators life will be good but if not worst. Same applies to [b]Demon[/b]cracy as there is no guarantee you have a good one.

Chewk, I suggest you read up on Cleon and the fall of the Athenian democracy, or read up on women's votes in swtizerlanf to understand why referendums are really stupid ideas.

Tories keep power for the foreseeable...

She's no fool is she!!!

No, not if power at the expense of the country is your objective.

The referendum is the fundamental of democracy that is above the rules of the land. You may delay it with all your might but you Cannot prevent it.

Even the British parliament MUST bow to the referendum.

Says the man who a few hours ago was suggesting that the best way to deal with Sturgeon was to deny any calls for a referendum. 😕

In fact all Western democratic govts MUST bow to referendum as it is the easiest form of seeing democracy in action.

Depends what you think "democracy" means.

Personally speaking, I don't think democracy means that the majority get to do what ever they want with no regard for any minority view.

What we have at the moment is, I believe, [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochlocracy ]Ochlocracy[/url] - a democracy spoiled by demagoguery.

Sturgeon doing what she does best which is use every opportunity to push the Independence agenda, that's fair enough as thats all the SNP care about. She knows how to parade for the Scottish electorate

@kimbers backbench Tories can't cut out employment rights from the Appeal Bill unless the Labour Party allow them to do so which seems very unlikely. Thanks for tariff summary. Germany also faces approx £4bn extra budget contributions unless the EU is to cut spending massively, Obviously exporters will try and pass costs into customers but VW etc will lose their price advantage vs Japan, Korea and US car makers

Re other posts here I see no reason I should not be as equally positive as Remainers here are trying to be negative. We have a huge Economic opportunity to refocus away from a stagnant Europe. In my view its essential we do so and Brexit helps to move that along

Pigface its been well covered in France the huge effort the Belgians have made to reinforce their border and return to France any migrants they find have crossed from Calais trying to find another Channel crossing. The vast majority of Calais Jungle residents will get asylum in France or if they fail be deported.

Ultimately referenda are not compatible with a representative democracy - they undermine our parliament, which while imperfect, is probably pretty decent in the scheme of things.

Restore British democracy - let the MPs decide.

Unfortunately most of the populace get their facts from, ahem, questionable sources..

I know some folks who are, supposedly, bright & informed but never bothered once to fact check ANYTHING during the whole Referendum. They'd made their minds up long ago. In fact when I tackled them on some of the "facts" being toted during the Referendum quite often they just went "Oh, I didn't know that....."

They weren't bothered in the slightest that both sides were telling lies & exaggerating scenarios to feed into whatever mindset they were aiming for.

Feking depressing really.

I hope to God there's never another.

Ultimately referenda are not compatible with a representative democracy - they undermine our parliament, which while imperfect, is probably pretty decent in the scheme of things.
Restore British democracy - let the MPs decide.

IGM if I posted such a thing I'd be accused of being a rightwing nut job keeping power with the elite.

I stand by statement that with a level playing field, equal campaign rescources and budget and full access to the Civil Service and official data the Leave Campaign would have won very comfortably. It woukd have helped too if Corbyn had held firm to his principals, shown leadership and Labour had campaigned for Leave.

As it was the "little people" defeated the combined might of the UK and International political elite. We WILL see the same throughout Europe in the next 12 months

GrahamS - Member

Even the British parliament MUST bow to the referendum.

Says the man who a few hours ago was suggesting that the best way to deal with Sturgeon was to deny any calls for a referendum.

Depends what you think "democracy" means.

Personally speaking, I don't think democracy means that the majority get to do what ever they want with no regard for any minority view.

I have democracy. Me.

mrmo - Member
Chewk, I suggest you read up on Cleon and the fall of the Athenian democracy, or read up on women's votes in swtizerlanf to understand why referendums are really stupid ideas.

backbench Tories can't cut out employment rights from the Appeal Bill unless the Labour Party allow them to do so

But May can't pass it if she doesn't have her backbenchers onside.....

So we'd have no laws ??! Anarchy in the UK

Remainers here are trying to be negative.

What a poisonous phrase. I'm not TRYING to be negative - things just look bad! You can't simply BLAME me for that. What do you want me to do, simply ignore the evidence? Forget all the bad things I've found out?

We have a huge Economic opportunity to refocus away from a stagnant Europe.

If that were the case, if that had been carefully planned and anticipated and worked towards, then fine - I'd just be depressed. But it hasn't! The WAY this has been handled is absolutely attrocious, from a pure competency point of view.

And you are not able to argue otherwise beyond simply telling us it'll be fine. Which is pathetic as an argument. And when challenged, you go quiet.

What is Kimbers going to do for money now?
Where are Delphi going to send their injectors?

the "little people" defeated the combined might of the UK and International political elite. We WILL see the same throughout Europe in the next 12 months

Ah ha ! Take that Illuminati !!

PJM1974 - Member
Read the Referendum Act 2015 here and tell me where there is a clear and definite plan as to what happens in the event of either majority.

Also, 51.8% of the vote between two choices would not return an absolute mandate. It's a very, very slim margin.

That is more than enough to win the referendum.

The people did not vote for remain.

No, not if power at the expense of the country is your objective.

she has picked up tips from Sturgeon

What is Kimbers going to do for money now

I was thinking of busking for reagents, 😉
actually had an email today from our largest supplier saying that they would be revising their prices from November, due to the weak £ 🙁

We have a huge Economic opportunity to refocus away from a stagnant Europe.

Define stagnant?

I want Jam to reassure me that scientific funding will be met from the UK Government. And how he knows, since no-one else does.

If that were the case, if that had been carefully planned and anticipated and worked towards, then fine - I'd just be depressed. But it hasn't! The WAY this has been handled is absolutely attrocious, from a pure competency point of view.

And you are not able to argue otherwise beyond simply telling us it'll be fine. Which is pathetic as an argument. And when challenged, you go quiet.

It's a bloody shambles..

[img] [/img]

GrahamS - Member
What we have at the moment is, I believe, Ochlocracy - a democracy spoiled by demagoguery.

If you loose and it is mob rule but if you win you will sing the praise of "democracy" oh lord.

molgrips - Member
I want Jam to reassure me that scientific funding will be met from the UK Government. And how he knows, since no-one else does.

Yes, coz it just so silly to have another referendum after the people voted to remain in the UK.

A major deciding factor at the time of indyref was the argument that Independent Scotland would be out of the EU and the only way to stay in the EU was to stay part of the UK.

Many of the people of Scotland cast their vote so they could stay in the EU, just as they overwhelmingly did in the EU referendum.

That will always be the case in demoncracy - devil in the details in trying to derail the whole concept and for some it is only democracy if they win.

I have democracy. Me.

As usual I have now completely lost track of what point(s) you were trying to make amongst the nonsense and non sequiturs.

You will get all your money and perhaps more. Happy?

As an answer.....thats, just, really a bit sh1t..

she has picked up tips from Sturgeon

Everything for you is about Sturgeon. Have you got a crush?

Restore British democracy - let the MPs decide.

As well known right wing nutter Tony Benn said, it's not within the powers of an MP to give away powers that are constitutionally lent to them by the populace, and that they have to hand back at then end of their term intact.

GrahamS - Member
A major deciding factor at the time of indyref was the argument that Independent Scotland would be out of the EU and the only way to stay in the EU was to stay part of the UK.

Many of the people of Scotland cast their vote so they could stay in the EU, just as they overwhelmingly did in the EU referendum.

They voted to remain part of UK regardless of where UK is heading.

If they did not trust UK then they would have voted Out. They don't have to stick around to see where UK is heading.

Nope, they Shall Not get another referendum for at least one generation. They can cast their vote in another generations or two later if SNP is still around that is. Nothing they can do about it now.

Definitely Not to give another referendum. What can they do? Nothing.

That's what you have previously with the mob rule from EU bureaucrats now we have democracy.
You loose and it is mob rule but if you win you will sing the praise of "democracy" oh lord.

I fail to see how you can think of EU bureaucrats as mob rule?

Read the wiki page on Ochlocracy I posted. It defines it as [i]democracy ("rule of the people") spoiled by demagoguery, "tyranny of the majority", and the rule of passion over reason[/i]

Drill further into [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue ]demagoguery[/url] and read the section:

[b]The methods of demagogues[/b]:

• Scapegoating
• Fearmongering
• Lying
• Emotional oratory and personal magnetism
• Accusing opponents of weakness and disloyalty
• Violence and physical intimidation
• Personal insults and ridicule
• Folksy posturing
• Gross oversimplification
• Attacking the news media

I think that pretty much covers every aspect of Brexit! The only thing we haven't seen yet is physical violence but give it time (that's why newspapers saying that Remainers are traitors who must be punished is so worrying!)

If not already shared yet

The only person with any credibility throughout this whole shambles, and I'm not even an SNP voter.

Everything for you is about Sturgeon. Have you got a crush?

No. Unfortunately she spends too much time in the news instead of head down working in the interests of Scotland. Its very distracting! She is at it today again.

mrlebowski - Member

You will get all your money and perhaps more. Happy?

As an answer.....thats, just, really a bit sh1t..

They can cast their vote in another generations or two later if SNP is still around that is. Nothing they can do about it now.

So much for you wanting to listen to the will of the people above all else eh? 🙄

An entire country has expressed very clearly that it wants to stay in the EU (62% in favour!!) and you are happy to ignore their wishes and force them to leave without offering any other option?

You will get all your money and perhaps more. Happy?

No. Needs more evidence.

Microsoft hike cloud pricing by 22% - who do you think will be paying for that? Fujitsu laying off lots of UK staff and centralising in Europe, diesel up by 10%, Nissan juggling decisions about investment. Apparently it's all a coincidence....

The light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off as it's to expensive to run.

That is more than enough to win the referendum.

The people did not vote for remain.

You clearly didn't read the Act properly, if you had, you'd have noted that there was absolutely no provision for what happens next. I would strongly urge you to read as much as you can about how a Parliamentary Democracy works, as I suspect that this concept is utterly alien to you.

In addition, you also haven't spotted the fact that the Greek Referendum on the bailout deal from the EU returned a result of 61.31% voting against.

oldmanmtb - Member

The light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off as it's to expensive to run.

It's fine, we never needed the light at the end of the tunnel anyway, and it was only a small light that was already in decline. Soon we'll be exporting terrifying darkness to the world!

PJM1974 - Member
You clearly didn't read the Act properly, if you had, you'd have noted that there was absolutely no provision for what happens next. I would strongly urge you to read as much as you can about how a Parliamentary Democracy works, as I suspect that this concept is utterly alien to you.

In addition, you also haven't spotted the fact that the Greek Referendum on the bailout deal from the EU returned a result of 61.31% voting against.

Microsoft hike cloud pricing by 22%

People use Microsoft still?

[i]We have a huge Economic opportunity to refocus away from a stagnant Europe[/I]

I think that this is the thing that seriously pi55es me off, there is nothing (and has been nothing) stopping the UK from doing business EVERYWHERE in the world while inside the EU. And we've also got access to the single-market.

Except IME (over the years I've worked in countries right across the world) that we're just not as good as other countries at it in many industries.

So WTF would we want to screw our position?

I stand by statement that with a level playing field, equal campaign rescources and budget and full access to the Civil Service and official data the Leave Campaign would have won very comfortably. It woukd have helped too if Corbyn had held firm to his principals, shown leadership and Labour had campaigned for Leave.

philxx1975 - Member

Microsoft hike cloud pricing by 22%

People use Microsoft still?

What if they had been forced to tell the truth...

😆

@oldman - £/$ moves 18% Microsoft raise prices 22% - opportunistic try on. Why aren't their servers in UK (I bet they are) and what costs have changed so much ? Are the servers demanding a pay rise ?

An entire country

Scotland is a ... region or a "nation". It is not a country. We went through this a million times on the referendum thread, Scotland is no more entitled to a seperate EU status as Yorkshire

Looks like it's time for a cost of living increase,

Did we all take a pay cut when £/$ was 2 as we didn't need the wages ?

By the way when £/€ was around thse levels in 2011 and 2013 did we have threads on inflation in food prices for the poor ?

Scotland is a ... region or a "nation". It is not a country.

Whaaaaaaaaaa....t? 😯

Is it just North North England in you world?

IGM if I posted such a thing I'd be accused of being a rightwing nut job keeping power with the elite.

Well you know, if everyone is referring to you that way... 😉 No one ever called a bleeding heart liberal like me right wing.

Scotland is a ... region or a "nation". It is not a country.

Try saying that on Sauchiehall Street on a Saturday night. if the locals don't get you the polis'll have you for inciting riot.

Jamba, you are right that we'll never KNOW how bad an idea Brexit is/was for ten years, but indicator after indicator, circumstantial point after circumstantial point suggests the choices are really bad or extremely bad. I also agree that in 50 years it probably won't make a difference, but we can't put lives on hold till then.

Has anyone noticed Brexit now has a Logo? 😯

Graham that point was argued about ad infinitum on the original Scots Indy Ref thread

Scotland is a ... region or a "nation". It is not a country. We went through this a million times on the referendum thread, Scotland is no more entitled to a seperate EU status as [s]Yorkshire[/s] [b]Rheghed or Elmet[/b]

FIFY

iScotland could apply like any other state to join the EU

Did we all take a pay cut when £/$ was 2 as we didn't need the wages ?
By the way when £/€ was around thse levels in 2011 and 2013 did we have threads on inflation in food prices for the poor ?

We have a huge Economic opportunity to refocus away from a stagnant Europe

I think that this is the thing that seriously pi55es me off, there is nothing (and has been nothing) stopping the UK from doing business EVERYWHERE in the world while inside the EU. And we've also got access to the single-market.

Except IME (over the years I've worked in countries right across the world) that we're just not as good as other countries at it in many industries.

So WTF would we want to screw our position?

They are pretty much my thoughts, we are not really gaining anything, and just closing the door on a favourable deal in the European market. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

whether companies are trying it on or not is not important . Prices are going up if you like it or not .
in your fantasy land it wont affect you , but in the real world the majority of us will have to pay more .

@oldman - £/$ moves 18% Microsoft raise prices 22% - opportunistic try on. Why aren't their servers in UK (I bet they are) and what costs have changed so much ? Are the servers demanding a pay rise ?

Think you will find the servers in Dublin, so that means the DBAs are now c20% more expensive for the english market. And you might as well set it over the top, unless Trump wins the £v$ is only going one way for the foreseeable future.

Is it just North North England in you world?

Graham that point was argued about ad infinitum on the original Scots Indy Ref thread

Well I'll not go all Ernest Renan then [i](Qu’est-ce qu’une nation ?)[/i] but (ex-)Kingdom, with its own capital, own flag, own anthem, own laws, own parliament, own currency (sort of), own national sports teams, and a separate social, political, Royal, military and genealogical history.

I think it easy qualifies as "country". I'll leave you to check it against Renan's criteria.

if your take democracy as meaning the belief in freedom and equality between people

a liberal democracy then - the alternative being what Graham S confirms as ochlocracy.

Graham - and the best national drink and most recognisable national dress anywhere

Scotland is a ... region or a "nation". It is not a country.

I don't think I'd ever get tired of stamping on you

IT'S NO A DRESS! 😉

It's a great step forward not to be the one that mentions Yorkshire. Yorkshire does not need to be in the EU or Uk and it certainly does not need to be part of the rest of the world. Free Yorkshie an it better be cheap!

Scotland is a ... region or a "nation". It is not a country.

I think what you meant was that Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland, while being separate countries with varying degrees of autonomy, are not sovereign states in and of themselves but form the sovereign state of the United Kingdom. For the moment at any rate.

Has anyone noticed Brexit now has a Logo?

Has it? What is it?

Country hanging itself

Graham - yes indeed. Brother's wedding. Pollokshields. Matching kilts. Very young York born son asked to be page boy. Bit shy so he ended up marching in beside me before my now sister-in-law. Fantastic. He doesn't remember much from that age - but he remembers wearing a kilt.

[quote=shermer75 ]

Has anyone noticed Brexit now has a Logo?

Actually googling it there appear to be quite a few Brexit logos.

Maybe they all voted to have a Brexit logo and found out afterwards they'd all assumed a different logo when they voted.

[i]@oldman - £/$ moves 18% Microsoft raise prices 22% - opportunistic try on. Why aren't their servers in UK (I bet they are) and what costs have changed so much ? Are the servers demanding a pay rise ?[/i]

Even if the servers were in the UK when was the last time you saw "Made in the UK" on the back of IT kit, it's all imported. And with short service lives you've to budget for new kit and (as said previously) when the mother-company is US/Euro based the targets will be in host currencies - so immediately any business unit in the UK is already 20% behind budget.

Can someone calculate 1/(1-0.18) and explain how it is relevant to the innumerate above ^

I don't think I'd ever get tired of stamping on you

That says more about you than me

1/(1-0.18) = 1.219ish so a 22% rise due to a fall in value of the pound.
Cloud stuff is very fluid with it's pricing as it's going to the market and the costs, expect it to track exchange rates closely.

Why aren't their servers in UK (I bet they are) and what costs have changed so much ? Are the servers demanding a pay rise ?

@br well if Microsoft choose to take £/€ risk by putting the servers in Ireland that's their look out. Ultimately it will depend on what Google, Dropbox and Apple do. If one has UK servers then its an issue. I don't know what the service life of servers are, maybe it is just 6-12 months. Then there are staff, premises costs, internet bandwidth costs, electricity etc. Many of these are predomintly local currency so £ if based here

jambalaya - Member
"I don't think I'd ever get tired of stamping on you"
That says more about you than me

Be careful Jamba, you really are poking a hornet's nest. Scots may be British, but Scotland is a country - just one that found an economic union convenient (due to bankruptcy) at one time. People will be buying your ski boots just so they can meet you.

And on Microsoft prices, we "voted for Brexit", they're putting up prices. Their call. You don't have to like it, or indeed care. Can I recommend going somewhere else if you don't like it? They're pretty market driven those guys and while they may have misread the situation, I bet they haven't.

#Brexiteers-v-RealWorld

PS - iPad just suggested "brexitees". do you think, is that companies relocating to warmer economic climes, or UK subjects suddenly discovering their rights to Irish passports?

jambalaya - Member

Ultimately it will depend on what Google, Dropbox and Apple do. I

Amazon more like. Here's a map of where AWS servers live. Ireland and the Netherlands if EU based. London is marked as "coming soon".

https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/global-infrastructure/

So I guess cloud computing prices will go up as suggested above.

jambalaya - Member

From now on, the pound abroad is worth 14 per cent or so less in terms of other currencies. That doesn't mean, of course, that the Pound here in Britain, in your pocket or purse or in your bank, has been devalued.

Not sure you're making sense there Jamba!

Does anybody else imagine jamba with his fingers in his ears going "la, la, la, I'm not listening", or is it just me?