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How the **** are we still losing this argument!?
A whole number of reasons. The first being that remain did lose the argument, the second being that instead of accepting that and choosing to mitigate the fallout, that side of the argument decided to go full on militant (a little late I might add), the third that instead of listening they called everyone racists and idiots, and finally by directing their anger at politicians who weren’t at fault and supporting those who were.
Who would have mitigated the fallout, what would they have proposed, who would have taken it through parliament, how would the public be persuaded to accept it? What shape does this least worse Brexit take? What mandate was it based on? What, who, how… or shut up complaining about people not getting behind this undeclared thing.
There is no possibility of mitigation given the tories red lines.
The first being that remain did lose the argument
It wasn’t even an argument, that would suggest they listened at all. The referendum “debate” was an exercise in propaganda and populism.
the third that instead of listening they called everyone racists and idiots
I spent a lot of time listening. Do you want to know what I found. Pro death penalty, the NHS needs privatising, the problems with the NHS are largely the fault of immigrants that take the piss and steal everything not nailed down, they don’t want to pay tax, they don’t want to pay minimum wage, Europeans are a genuine enemy to the U.K., Scotland can go * itself bunch of subsidy scroungers anyway the “sweaty jocks”, Trump is a good guy, no deal is the best option, well make a success of it because we are basically superior to those Europeans and it’s them holding us back. And for good measure climate change isn’t much of an issue.
I hope to * the ***** I “listened to” form just a tiny minority of leave voters.
piemonster
Member
The first being that remain did lose the argument
It wasn’t even an argument, that would suggest they listened at all. The referendum “debate” was an exercise in propaganda and populism.
the third that instead of listening they called everyone racists and idiots
I spent a lot of time listening. Do you want to know what I found. Pro death penalty, the NHS needs privatising, the problems with the NHS are largely the fault of immigrants that take the piss and steal everything not nailed down, they don’t want to pay tax, they don’t want to pay minimum wage, Europeans are a genuine enemy to the U.K., Scotland can go * itself bunch of subsidy scroungers anyway the “sweaty jocks”, Trump is a good guy, no deal is the best option, well make a success of it because we are basically superior to those Europeans and it’s them holding us back. And for good measure climate change isn’t much of an issue.
I hope to * the ***** I “listened to” form just a tiny minority of leave voters.
Very much the same as I got from trying the challenging conversation with leave voters at work!
Mostly it was "I read it in the DM"
choosing to mitigate the fallout
by accepting a 'solution' that pleases only a fraction of those that voted leave. so now pretty much everyone is unhappy and poorer. or we could remain, so more people are happier, and everyone is not poorer. let me think.
Nice one Del
It's ok Johnson has a plan & it's a doozey
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1163963029924528133?s=19
that side of the argument decided to go full on militant (a little late I might add), the third that instead of listening they called everyone racists and idiots
The majority of the cases I have seen wasnt calling everyone racists and idiots but saying that a venn diagram of leavers and remainers had those two categories intersecting primarily with the leavers rather than remainers.
the problem being those who are lapping it up, thinking that he’s finally showing some robust negotiation, and is showing Johnny foreigner that we Brits won’t be messed around…. 🙄
Yep as I keep banging on he's been on a campaigning footing from the day he got the presidency.
All this stuff is just soundbites that get played back on the media.
A lot of people really aren't into politics they only get the 2 second sound bites on the telly and don't bother digging deeper.
The only option he had, (for his benefit and party) was to just force ahead with no-deal, a condition of the extension was to close the negotiation so unless he was going back with something that changed the read lines that was the offer.
If parliament blocks his no exit that will be used as propoganda for the upcoming election.
He's got to Out Brexit the Brexit party to get his number up which is why the shite rhetoric is being spouted.
How the **** are we still losing this argument!?
Because mostly.its not based on reason, it's based on emotion. You can't change that with a rational argument.
Because mostly.its not based on reason, it’s based on emotion. You can’t change that with a rational argument.
+1000
Dublin diverge from EU rules
Which side of the Irish border diverging makes most sense ?
I'm sure it's bindun on here but I've only just seen it:
Thing is the remainers have not lost the argument. Polls now clearly show a significant majority for remain. Thats a shift to remain - because we have won the argument
Why do you think leavers are so against another referendum -they know they would lose it
Good to see, as expected, Johnson has now said its all the remainers fault that we don't already have a fantistc deal.
That's his plan? He wants Ireland to leave the EU too? Flippin' heck.
As plans go, that's flawless. Of course they will.
I do believe he's just gone full retard.
Ian Holloway believes the EU is responsible for VAR and Brexit will get rid of it.
This is the level of stupidity you're up against with the stereotypical Brexiteer.
To paraphrase the Terminator movie
It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you have left the EU
https://twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1164058646634008579?s=19
That’s his plan? He wants Ireland to leave the EU too? Flippin’ heck.
At least its a bit more original and thought through than "new technology will solve everything". Leaving aside the teeny weeny flaw that Ireland wont go for it its an improvement.
I'm sure Jacob Rees Mogg likes this proposal. Given that he still thinks its the 19th Century.
What do you mean, we can't tell the Irish what to do any more?
What do you mean, we can’t tell the Irish what to do any more?
Country obsessed with sovereignty thinks it can tell a sovereign nation what to do
A lot of people really aren’t into politics they only get the 2 second sound bites on the telly and don’t bother digging deeper.
This is only partly true. Being into politics isn't exclusively the preserve of people who follow the news and argue about it on internet forums. It's true most people don't bother getting into it in detail, but that's because they have more important things to do, like working, running a family etc, and I think its probably fair to say that the majority of these are at the lower end of the income scale. I'd argue however they understand much more about politics than their better off politicos on the internet think, because they feel the direct impact of it on their lives through lower incomes, poorer or dissappearing public services which they depend on, and yes, even things like the much derided subject of local bus services.
Those of us who are better off are insulated from much of politics and government. It doesn't really affect us like it does those at the bottom. And those at the bottom feel like they've been cast aside and forgotten about. The further a government is from the people the more the people will hate it. That's why they don't like the EU.
The further a government is from the people the more the people will hate it. That’s why they don’t like the EU.
Try working for a local council for a while… and see what people really think about government “close” to them. Advise growing a thick skin first.
I'm not sure dazh.
For certain, the people at the bottom feel the impact more.
But I don't believe they understand it any more than those in the middle or the top.
I’m not sure dazh.
For certain, the people at the bottom feel the impact more.
But I don’t believe they understand it any more than those in the middle or the top
100%
Look at the things that get wrongly attributed to the EU. For example, years of Tory austerity cuts have decimated public services for those who need and use them the most, yet the leave campaign convinced those people that it was the fault of immigrants and the EU.
Well Johnson seems to be winning back the bxp voters
But Corbyn has lost those that go to the lib Dems...
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1164108955339120641?s=19
[gulps nervously] it's gonna be hard Brexit followed by austerity on steroids !
THose numbers don't quite add up - totals unly 94% (so some parties not included) and sum of change is +2.
Howeever, as Libs cosntnat and labour down; with only tories rising, it sugests labour votors switcing to tory, as incongrous as it sounds.
CON: 42% (+17)
LAB: 28% (-6)
Who said that coming out for a 2nd ref wouldn't lose Labour votes? Hmm.
I’d argue however they understand much more about politics than their better off politicos on the internet think, because they feel the direct impact of it on their lives
Disagree. Just because you feel the impact of something, doesn't mean you automatically understand that something. See the list of grievances people blame on the EU.
That’s his plan? He wants Ireland to leave the EU too? Flippin’ heck.
lots on twitter suggesting maybe he should offer to buy it instead...
Who said that coming out for a 2nd ref wouldn’t lose Labour votes? Hmm.
Labours problem is that their message is still not clear
May was not trusted by Leavers on Brexit, the tories replaced her with a true no deal brexiteer & won back bxp voters
Corbyn not trusted on brexit by remainers, Labour have stuck with him (& hes still not said he'd back remain in a 2nd ref) and the labour voters havent returned from the greens/libdems
the fact that you need a flow chart to understand labours stance on what is ultimately a binary issue is a huge tactical error
also the kantar poll may be an outlier , but there is a trend
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1163187539823345664
Because mostly.its not based on reason, it’s based on emotion. You can’t change that with a rational argument.
Absolutely bang on. And as an added bonus you can decry all argument as patronising or 'tactics'.
It is genius in its simplicity. Until you realise where it leads, of course.....
Yep, the two track denouncements of “Project Fear” and “out of touch elites” has been very very well executed. And those who led this approach are now in charge of the government, and the new “Conservative Brexit Party” that is likely to be just as successful at pushing aside any considered opposition. Especially when you add in the additional attack lines of “undemocratic” and “unpatriotic” that will be ramped up this year.
Who said that coming out for a 2nd ref wouldn’t lose Labour votes? Hmm
I won’t vote Labour while Corbyn leads the party. I think he’s an ineffective leader, and the only reason we’re in this situation is because of his pro-Brexit half-arsed opposition.
I also suspect that he’d be almost impossible to shift for years from his position if he ends up leading a caretaker government.
Who said that coming out for a 2nd ref wouldn’t lose Labour votes? Hmm.
Yep, and this is why Labour took the path they took originally.
Yep, and this is why Labour took the path they took originally.
which worked 2 years ago, but they need a clear message now (+ as Johnson has shown, probably a new leader)
as many of us said Corbyn's change of stance was too little, too late
Try working for a local council for a while… and see what people really think about government “close” to them.
Once again you miss the point. People may not like the local council, but they understand that they are accountable. If they don't like what they're getting they call their local councillor or pick up the phone to have a go at some poor official in the council offices (and yes I have worked for a council actually!). Who do they call in the EU?
But I don’t believe they understand it any more than those in the middle or the top.
They understand the impact politics has on the lives of ordinary people, because they live it every day. Can those in the middle and professional classes say the same?
I won’t vote Labour while Corbyn leads the party. I think he’s an ineffective leader, and the only reason we’re in this situation is because of his pro-Brexit half-arsed opposition.
Total bollox. Sorry I'd elaborate on why but there's really no point is there? If this is really what you believe, then I'm afraid you're no better than the 'idiots' who were misled by Boris and Farage and voted against their own interests.
he’s an ineffective leader
@dazh - this isnt total bollocks, whatevr you think of his politics, his leadership is below what is currentl required. Competing factions of the labour party are saying whatever they want sending contradicting messagea so there is little clarity. I believe it is primarily for this reason that Labour are not polling beter and why peopel think Corbyn is untrustworthy. If he was a beeter leader there would be consistent messages coming out from all reltively senior members of the labour party.
Competing factions of the labour party are saying whatever they want sending contradicting messagea so there is little clarity.
If he was a beeter leader there would be consistent messages coming out from all reltively senior members of the labour party.
this!!
the country is polarised & its crunch time, sitting on the fence was the wrong long term strategy
They understand the impact politics has on the lives of ordinary people, because they live it every day.
Do they know what specific policies are affecting their lives and how? Are they struggling because of austerity, or immigration, or Brexit, or what? If they are in work how does austerity affect them?
You have to understand a little bit of economics and politics to make sense of it, and because it's not taught in schools you have to want to learn about. Which few people do.
This is why I think politics and economics should be mandatory in schools, even a short course as part of citizenship or something.
the country is polarised & its crunch time, sitting on the fence was the wrong long term strategy
Any attempt to retrospectively decide a different strategy would have been better is just going to be wishful thinking I'm afraid.
If he was a beeter leader there would be consistent messages coming out from all reltively senior members of the labour party.
Sorry but this is utterly moronic. The only way he could impose that sort of discipline is if he could easily sack those senior members or have some other form of serious influence.
Blair did well since the MPs were so low at the beginning he managed to stack it with loyalists to him. Even then though he got defeated multiple times.
Cameron was similar looked all competent up until the point he went for something that his MPs disagreed with him on (plus a large part of the media) at which point he got his arse kicked.
The only way you get a completely consistent message is a)ability to threaten b)creating a cult c)where conditions are in your favour.
Once again you miss the point. People may not like the local council, but they understand that they are accountable. If they don’t like what they’re getting they call their local councillor or pick up the phone to have a go at some poor official in the council offices (and yes I have worked for a council actually!). Who do they call in the EU?
Hmm their MEP perhaps 🙂
Sorry but this is utterly moronic. The only way he could impose that sort of discipline is if he could easily sack those senior members or have some other form of serious influence
Bullshit. Good leaders get people on board, they have a strategy and get people to buy into it. Instead, there have been several occasions in the last year or so when one shadow cabinent member has said one thing and then a couple of hours later it has been flatly contradictd by another.
He can easily alter his shadow cabinent if he feels it isnt performing adequately.
EDIT. Perhaps more to the point, from an electoral (/possible second refernedum) point of view; its whether the gneral public percieve him as a good leader and trustworthy. I know very few that do (althouh the same goes for BJ); and I do think this is due to the lack of consistency among the labour front bench.
Hmm their MEP perhaps
Ha ha ha ha! Seriously? And what good will that actually do? There's a reason no one knows who their MEP is, and that's because they are a complete waste of space.