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What Edukator said.
What nickc said.
Most of all this cluckerfust is plain old incompetence and greed and stupidity, not conspiracy and plotting.
Theres 2 problems with Corbyn as caretaker PM
Among renainers (and leavers). He's just not trusted on Brexit, his stance on Brexit has not been clear (he still won't say if he'd back remain ina 2nd ref), you need a flow chart to figure out what labour want regards Brexit that doesn't translate into votes in a polling booth or the division lobby.
2nd problem is that for it to work & block no deal Brexit caretaker PM has to be someone Tory rebels will vote for, the labour brexiteers won't vote for it regardless so it's dependent on Tory moderates, even Hammond won't vote for corbyn.
Labour know all this, is it a trap for Swinson & an effort to claw back the votes they've lost to the Lads rather than a genuine effort to stop no deal Brexit ?
It's still all a mess & no deal seems by far the likeliest outcome.
My sentiments exactly Kimbers. The way they've gone about it is so totally non-comital, half-arsed and throwaway that you can tell that they were never remotely serious about it.
SQUIRREL!!
It's just about distraction, and making it look like you're doing something, then blame-storming for the upcoming catastrophe. He's roping the Lib Dems in now
It's just more of the same from within the bunker. Corbyn wants Brexit, but he doesn't want his fingerprints on it.
It's so transparent. His fingerprints are all over Brexit though
Its just more of the same from within the bunker. Corbyn wants Brexit, but he doesn’t want his fngerprints on it.
Morning comrade!
How's the revolution coming on?
Anyone who thinks that “Corbyn wants Brexit” is just conspiracy theory nonsense, or that those that can see this are akin to “flat earthers”, is ignoring all the evidence. I’m glad that Labour policy is finally to offer a referendum with a Remain option in all circumstances… but Corbyn still wants his chance to deliver Brexit… don’t lose sight of that… he’s managed to keep that as Labour policy… and if it happens without him getting his chance to be the one to deliver it… while most of the Labour movement will be gutted… no one really believes he would be… do they? That really wouldn’t fit it with his lifetime of work, would it.
Morning comrade!
How’s the revolution coming on?
How does the Swinson Kool Aid taste? Are you happy you got in to bed with the yellow tories, who've betrayed your wishes at the first opportunity?
It’s so transparent. His fingerprints are all over Brexit though
I was wondering how long it would take you to recover.
Is there any scenario where you wouldnt completely blame Corbyn? I suspect if he resigned today you would claim it is a cunning plan to confuse things.
2nd problem is that for it to work & block no deal Brexit caretaker PM has to be someone Tory rebels will vote for
It comes back to a simple question. If a no deal brexit is as catastrophic and unthinkable as the moderate tories and libdems say it is, then they should put aside party politics and do whatever it takes to stop it. Corbyn's plan is the simplest, most direct and quickest way to do that. So do they want to avoid no deal or not? Labour have tabled a plan which will work, all it needs is the tories and libdems to act in the national interest.
The issue Corbyn has is he isn't a very good leader; therfore the competing factions within the labour party who want opposing brexit outcomes get too much aritime/influnece so the public don't see a coherant labour policy. Wheter or not Corbyn wants or doesnt want Brexit is a mute point; we are likely going to be going into a general election soon with large swathes of the popualtion unclear on, and untrsting in labours position.
In other news, does anyone find it amusing that theose pesky Turks that were going to come an steal all our jobs are possibly going to save 4,000 in a Breixt affected industry https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/16/british-steel-provisional-deal-with-turkish-bidder-could-save-4000-jobs-oyak
So what do we think about Ken Clarke leading a government of national unity, then?
I would vote for it.
Corbyn’s plan is the simplest, most direct and quickest way to do that. So do they want to avoid no deal or not? Labour have tabled a plan which will work, all it needs is the tories and libdems to act in the national interest.
But it only works if it can get votes on parliament , that's why Swinson suggested a labour & a Tory
Corbyn putting himself up doesn't sound like putting country before party !
Corbyn’s plan is the simplest, most direct and quickest way to do that.
No it isn't and it won't work anyhow, BUT, any remain Tory can resign (well an MP can't resign but can choose to be disqualified). Given the slender majority a handful of Tories disqualifying themselves would lose the government its majority and enable a succesful no-confidence vote by the opposition - but only if the Labour Brexiters voted against the government. Mass self-disqualifications by Tory Brexit rebels are the only way I can see of stopping Brexit before 30/10. Won't happen of course. Crashing out on 30/10 is the most likely scenario if you believe the traders.
Anyone who thinks that “Corbyn wants Brexit” is just conspiracy theory nonsense,
If I may quoth Binners? "watch what they do, not what they say"
I'm pretty solidly Labour and I don't trust Corbyn on Brexit, and in polling he's consistently the least trusted politician and the last list I saw included May and Johnson!
Every MP knows that we're crashing out at the end of October. Thats the default, and theres nothing anyone can do now we're a government absolutely determined to ram it though at all costs. All this present nonsense is about is who gets the blame. Expect more of this sort of pointless, impotent posturing.
The truth is that most of them are to blame. Namely, every ****ing idiot that voted to trigger article 50 (to quote Donald Tusk) 'without a sketch of a plan' as to what would happen next.
In case people have forgotten the commons voted 498 : 114 to invoke Art. 50.
The way the BBC presented it at the time was bizarre:
MPs have voted by a majority of 384 to allow Prime Minister Theresa May to get Brexit negotiations under way.
They didn't vote to get negotiations under way, they voted to leave the European union, because that's the only thing Art. 50 does. So the vast majority of those MPs who had campaigned for remain turned around and voted to leave.
Even more ridiculously, at that point Mays Brexit 'strategy' consisted of three words:
Brexit Means Brexit
That was it. Thats what they all voted for. Thats why we're in the mess we're in now.
****ing clowns!
If I remember rightl the EU said they wouldnt negioatie until reciveing article 50. Doesn't excuse the total lack of stragety or planning pre A50 submission; but that was the rason given why it had to be invoked quickly I think?
but that was the rason given why it had to be invoked quickly I think?
Yup.
The reason it was invoked so quickly was to avoid the eurosceptic papers attacks.
I love this its all corbyns fault line from some of you given the major splits in his party over brexit - 70+ labour mps want brexit in varying forms and the last attempt that labour made to take control of parliament to stop no deal brexit was stymied by 18 labour mps refusing to support the attempt - despite 8 (iirc) tories voting with labour
So actually the people who have stopped labour stopping brexit arenot the leadership but the backbenchers - many of whom are held up by the corbyn haters as true labour!
The Labour Brexiteers are a right old mish mash. Some old lefties, like Corbyn, some who would be considered Blairite
I don't doubt for a second though, that if Grandad was still on the backbenches (where he should be) he'd have voted with the Brexiteers every single time
TJ very few here think "it's Corbyn's fault" you should probably stop banging that particularly hollow drum. Most criticism of Corbyn comes from his lack of opposition. His party is overwhelmingly for remain, the confusion* from his front bench is frustrating to those here of.a leftwing remain stance.
*I've said before, from a Westminster POV it makes perfect sense, however it hasn't translated well to public, and the lack of Corbyn vocally and loudly and clearly articulating arguments against the Johnson govt is doubly frustrating
Corbyn putting himself up doesn’t sound like putting country before party !
Corbyn is leader of the opposition. He’s dutybound to put himself up. The only way he can recuse himself of that is to resign. So who is playing politics? Corbyn or his opponents who are using the threat of no deal to remove him?
. He’s dutybound to put himself up.
if your first duty is to your party, rather than your country.........
Most criticism of Corbyn comes from his lack of opposition
And that he is a godawful leader.
Where's Boris? Out and about, in the news, you know what he's pushing. Free money for everyone and a glorious Brexity future.
Even the minority that is the Lib Dem party have a leader in the news pushing the Anti Brexit stance.
But what are Labour doing?
Vernon Bogdanor talking to Ploitico London Playbook has come up with a wizard scenario
A Brexit election: Even if Boris Johnson holds an election after the U.K. has left with no deal on October 31, an election could be fought on Brexit, Bogdanor believes. “I don’t believe an election in November could frustrate a Remain or anti-no deal position. It is true the default position in Britain and the EU is that we leave on October 31. But the British parliament is sovereign so it can pass retrospective legislation, and it did for example with the War Crimes Act of 1991 — parliament could deem we hadn’t left and seek an extension.”
If you cant change the future change the past.
Fire up the Delorean
if your first duty is to your party, rather than your country
HM Leader of the Opposition is not a party post, it's a statutory position paid for by the state, and the duties in regards to this post are to the country and not the party of the person who holds it. Corbyn can't get himself out of putting himself up for government without resigning any more than Johnson can swan off for a bit then come back when he wants.
So much bullshit.
Anyway… I’m in shock… at the in-laws place… and my other half’s dad… Conservative all his life, voted Brexit, still thinks we should leave the EU… just said that the idea of Clarke&Harman leading a cross party temporary government to stop this new Tory government from leading us into a Deal Brexit this autumn IS A GOOD IDEA and Tory MPs should back it. The world has just turned upside down. Has always disagreed with Clarke on Europe, but now says he would rather put his trust in him and key Labour politicians to act in the national interest than the current government.
Kelvin it doesn't really matter that you don't like it, the facts are that the leader of the opposition is the only person who can call a no confidence vote, and has the right to form a govt if a VONC is successful. That's not a party political issue, it's a constitutional convention. By all means lets rip up the rules and put something else in it's place, but there's not time to do that before we leave the EU with no deal so make your mind up about what is more important.
Yes he must call the VONC… but no he doesn’t have to put his own name forward as the PM of a government he proposes to replace the current one. It would be highly unconventional… but pretending his hands are tied by the rules is utter astroturfing bullshit appearing through all the normal tedious on message channels.
the facts are that the leader of the opposition is the only person who can call a no confidence vote,
correct
and has the right to form a govt if a VONC is successful.
not correct
I don't understand the debate here. It's a temporary position. Get behind Corbyn and block the vote. It's all that's on offer.
Then have a G.E.
Yes he must call the VONC… but no he doesn’t have to put his own name forward as the PM of a government he proposes to replace the current one.
Why not he has a huge mandate!
the leader of the opposition is the only person who can call a no confidence vote,
No, that's wrong, check out the fixed term parliaments act 2011. The SNP, Greens, Plaid and Lib Dems have already tabled a no confidence motion.
and has the right to form a govt if a VONC is successful.
He has the right to have a crack at it, but so does any other MP. The constitution states that the government can be formed by any MP who can command a majority.
Why not he has a huge mandate!
Really? From who?
Why not he has a huge mandate!
Not in the commons he doesn’t. There are plenty of MPs who will not only balk at putting Corbyn in as PM, but know those who elect them would as well.
He can try and blackmail MPs by saying he’ll let No Deal happen, rather than let anyone else try and get cross party support, and people can join in the “Corbyn or no one” chants… but if it doesn’t work… then what?
No, that’s wrong, check out the fixed term parliaments act 2011. The SNP, Greens, Plaid and Lib Dems have already tabled a no confidence motion.
No, you're wrong. Any MP can propose it but only Corbyn can introduce it.
Edukator - others can table a VONC but only the official leader of the opposition can have one that must be debated. The speaker can and does ignore the others not giving it time for debate.
Why not he has a huge mandate!
If he had a huge mandate he would already be PM. He needs the support of MPs who were elected on their own mandate.
Compromise solution - none of the current party leaders become caretaker PM but instead a less divisive figure who people could coalesce around.
Also Corbyn wants GE before ref. Should be other way around. By sticking to this all Corbyn is doing is showing that he is hungry for power with no guarantee that he would win a FPTP GE and we would be back in this shit show possibly with a mandated no deal Tory/Brexit party coalition..................
Get behind Corbyn and block the vote. It’s all that’s on offer.
It's not us that has to get behind the vote its our MPs
That means cross party support
If there was some evidence Corbyn had that I'd be behind it, but have any said they would?
Any MP can propose it but only Corbyn can introduce it.
That’s down to the speakers discretion. He’s stuck with that convention for now. Realistically there is little point anyone else calling a VONC though, as the second biggest party has to be behind it for there to be any chance of success.
It’s not us that has to get behind the vote its our MPs
Exactly. I’d personally be more than happy for Parliament to proceed exactly as per Corbyn’s letter, with him becoming the interim PM… but I also want a plan that’ll work in Parliament… in good time and without any more of the brinkmanship damaging this country.
Compromise solution – none of the current party leaders become caretaker PM but instead a less divisive figure who people could coalesce around.
It’s so obviously the only plan that can move us forward, isn’t it.
That’s down to the speakers discretion. He’s stuck with that convention for now.
And is there any evidence at all that the Speaker plans to break with parliamentary convention on this matter?
No, and as things stand there would be no point in doing so.
^ A moot point then.