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Binners - No I don't. But I don't know it well enough to know who might be there. Socially illiberal Brexiteer seem to dominate, currently.
I think the Labour party are that sinking ship, with Red Grandad locked in his cabin with his fingers in his ears going "la, la, la" and trying to block the reality that in 10 minutes he is going to be up to his 'arris in salt water.
This argument that he is trying to hold party together is rubbish, hold it together for what? What good is a political party that has no followers and is deafening only it's ability to say very little and to offer bugger all opposition, this Tory party and As Binners says, at a time where they were needed to step up and be a real opposition party, they have squarely failed.
When you think of the majority that Blair had in 97, imagine how many of those were soft tory/soft lab and where are they now?? There is a massive opportunity but no one seems to want to pose anything moderate, and the disaffection in politicians that drove the referendum vote is getting worse.
As you might have seen in the Polls, the Lib Dems are killing it at the moment.
'97 was the first GE I was old enough to vote in, I along with most of my mates Voted for Labour, and have done so pretty much every GE since.
We'd heard Neil Kinnock try and fail for a decade to persuade people to embrace Socialism, a lot like the times we find ourselves in now, a lot of people absolutely hated the Tory Government, I mean forget the recent slightly rose tinted revival of Thatchers Premiership, in the 90s she was LOATHED by large swathes of the population, but despite this, there were never enough voters willing to embrace true socialism, when the Demonised Thatcher gave way to the far nicer Major his chance had passed.
New Labour really was a breath of fresh Air, it was a version of the 'Third Way' which was music to our ears. It basically said that you could work hard and get ahead without having your Shop Steward cutting your down for getting ideas above your station, messing with seniority or worst of all, becoming 'Management' (they used the word like Right Wingers use 'Liberal' these days) but at the same time you didn't have to screw over your fellow man at the same time. You worked hard you were rewarded but you paid your taxes and those taxes paid for Hospitals, School, Welfare, University Places. What a great idea eh? Prosperity for those who could, and support for those who couldn't.
The people who hated it, are the same people who hate it now - the ones who want to maintain the old class system. Either because they're at the bottom and think same is the same as equal and equal is the same as fair. Or they're at the top and it really seems a jolly good idea to stay there.
Labour like the think they did well badly than expected at the last election because they got a lot of young voters, but the data doesn't support that. The data actually shows that at the last moment, people in my demographic couldn't bring themselves to stay away and with the LDs still in the shit for the coalition years voted Labour. We won't next time.
What a great idea eh? Prosperity for those who could, and support for those who couldn’t.
Which of the current crop of labour social and economic policies do not fit this description?
Delivering Brexit.
Which of the current crop of labour social and economic policies do not fit this description?
Erm... how about its support for the ultimate uber-neoliberal, right-wing project .... Brexit
Which we all know will lead to economic catastrophe, with the disaster capitalists making a killing, while the poor and working classes once again bear the brunt of it. All while the rich get richer. Ultimately the privatisation of the NHS, and the decimation of everything we now take for granted once the tax is slashed for corporations and the wealthy as we turn into a tax haven
But, if we just forget about that trifling little matter, everything is brilliant!
I may be wrong. Brexit may usher in a socialist utopia. Looking at the people who champion it, that's almost certainly what they've got in mind
Cheers!
@dazh, the policy of supporting Brexit knowing full well, it is the man in the street that will end bearing the cost of this mess? Blindly wanting Leave, but then not even having the guts to state it out loud properly, just sitting high on the fence saying very little?
Corbyn has made clear he wants Brexit, but has anyone actually read anything clear from him as to why he wants it and why he thinks it is the best thing for us, i haven't really?
Has anybody heard what his policies will be once Brexit has happened so that we are a more prosperous nation with better jobs once it has happened?
You can quote all the policies in the world, but then when you ignore the large elephant in the room that has a huge bearing on all other aspects, then they aren't worth the paper they are written on.
There is a clear reason Labour supporters are leaving them in droves and every turn they seem to be failing to address the issue.
Watching Jo Swinson, who looks nailed on to take over from Uncle Vince, interviewed on Newsnight last week, it seems we’re about to get a competent party leader who isn’t mental.
Have you checked her voting record?
I have, yes. Exactly what you'd expect from a Lib Dem, really. All very... well... liberal
I'm not completely disagreeing with the thrust of your point Binners but its worth remembering that: Rich were getting richer before the referendum, working poor were bearing the brunt of it before the referendum, disaster capitalists were getting richer before the referendum,NHS being privatised before the....etc
If we revoke A50 tomorrow all the above would be true still.
Absolutely.
But everything is relative. This will all look like a socialist utopia if the Brexiteers get to push through everything they've actually got planned (but are shy of actually vocalising)
Brexit would mean taking this particularly American form of capitalism, which has delivered so much inequality and turbo-charging it then giving it a few lines of coke.
Most of the restraints on the economic model are placed on it by the EU. That's why the headbangers hate the EU so much. They want to tear up any restrictions on their ability to absolutely shaft us all. Brexit won't solve these problems. It will make them ten times worse.
Call me old fashioned, but I don't think the labour party should be fully complicit in enabling that, based on the terminally misguided and outdated, knee-jerk, 1970's anti-Europeanism of a group of political dinosaurs
first and probably last post in this thread because the whole thing is too depressing, but I certainly count myself amoung the people who believed Corbyn had the correct strategy up until January or so, and that after all the VONC and so on, would switch to strongly supporting 2nd ref or at least some palatable version of brexit - very closely aligned or whatever.
However it's been clear since then that the labour leadership are not keen to lead at all and are happy to be as ambiguous as possible in order to mop up as many votes as possible (and I don't believe that is going to work).
I am a rabid remainer but I would have been satisfied with Labour setting out a clear policy based on leaving but with a solid plan to work very closely with the rest of europe, combined (importantly for me) with a fairly radical social democratic manifesto. Renationalising key infrastructure, very strong action to deal with the problem of housing costs and draconian action to impose fair taxation on companies who are not paying anywhere near a fair share. And, reform of the voting system ideally.
But it's clear now that Labour are too divided and cannot be trusted to lead. If they can't be trusted to lead on brexit (with a clear, unequivocal, achievable policy on exactly what they will do) I don't trust them to deliver anything else. There is far too much "clever language" and equivocation and wiggle room.
So like many others I will be voting green or lib dem. It is already now too late for labour to win back my vote at the next election, I am fed up with the whole thing and I totally understand why people who see things a bit differently from me will vote Brexit party.
Rob
robjones for PM
Just had to spend £172 getting our dog tested for rabies so we can take him to Europe later this year.
I’m not sure whether I’m supposed to send the bill to Boris or Nigel?
Send it to one of these five working class salt of the earth types…
I am a rabid remainer but I would have been satisfied with Labour setting out a clear policy based on leaving but with a solid plan to work very closely with the rest of europe, combined (importantly for me) with a fairly radical social democratic manifesto.
Totally agree. What is it about the brexit policy that you are not clear about?
You're just trolling now.
Not at all. I'm genuinely interested in why someone who appears to have thought carefully about this is unable to understand a policy which is a simple flowchart with a couple of basic questions in it. He wants a clear policy, and that's what they have.
69000
unable to understand a policy which is a simple flowchart with a couple of basic questions in it.
that is comedy gold right there
LibDem or Green.
OK, I'm not going to get dragged into this because I simply don't have time, but I think I need to reply to that last point because on the face of it, yes, labour are offering a simple 2-part flowchart
1. get general election yes/no
2. if yes....campaign on "labour brexit"
3. if no....call for 2nd ref
There are many problems I have with this.
1. Every announcement of labour policy comes with words like "...to avoid damaging tory brexit" and it turns out that it means whatever the person you ask, wants it to mean
2. There is in my opinion / understanding no brexit which delivers benefits the people who labour claim to be representing, above being in the eu
3. I may have missed later announcements, but labour were extremely imprecise as to what would be the 2nd ref questions
4. every response to brexit is worded in a way to mean as much as possible to as many as possible while leaving as much as possible equivocation.
I think overall my main reason for disillusionment is the lack of clarity and leadership. No-one is coming out and saying what they really believe for fear of dropping in the polls (which are meaningless for now, while no election is on the horizon). In this they are being as dishonest as the tories.
The lib dems, greens and brexit party are 100% clear on their brexit views (brexit party don't have any other position of course, but then all they want is brexit, so I guess that's fair enough) and that is why people are going to them. Brexit in itself is not that important but since it is preventing literally everything other issue getting any attention it needs to be dealt with one way or another, and now...like right now. Leaving the EU will not help and will mean a huge amount of wasted effort in itself but if it's going to happen anyway then let's not waste a few MORE months / years where everything else is neglected and politicians' positions radicalise as a result of having to adopt ever more extreme viewpoints.
I'm going to have to get back to work now but I hope I've shown why I can't vote labour until something dramatically shifts.
Oh come on, that’s a ridiculous thing to say. Long memories? It was easily within the last couple of decades.
Precisely, it was 10-15 years ago. What relevance does that have on politics today? You might as well argue against the Tories because of school milk, hate Germans because of WWII, or hand-wave cancer because Original Sin.
We desperately need, as a country, to start looking forwards rather than backwards. Learn from history sure, but we can't change that. The Tories / Lib Dems / Labour / etc are different animals than they were a decade or two ago.
The Tories / Lib Dems / Labour / etc are different animals than they were a decade or two ago.
This is because they are all administrators.
What is a government, if not administrators of a country?
What is a government, if not administrators of a country?
Government need a leader to lead (one on the opposition too).
What you have now is a bunch of administrators that pretend to be "leaders".
Yes, government needs administrators but they also need a leader. You have plenty of the former but lacking the latter.
The administrators have No Vision to convince others and cannot lead.
I think by leader, he means celebrity malcontent.
*steps into thread*
Evenin' all...
*scans thread*
Oh no. We're about three posts away from yet another repetitively banal non-sequitur aren't we?
Listening to Radio Scotia yesterday, they had 2 young Tory councillors on chatting about the potential new leaders, apparently Gove is 'charismatic' and Boris is 'the voice of reason'.
Was very tempted to boot the radio across the kitchen.
In other news, 63% of Tory members wish to press on with Brexit even if it means Scotland leaving the union.
Every cloud and all that... 🙂
Well the leadership debate was a complete waste of time last night. Without some immediate fact checking to discredit the bollocks they all said (apart from maybe Rory Stewart), what's the point? It's just 5 blokes living in a fantasy world trying to talk over each other to get their lies across.
Emily Maitlis needed a fog horn just to drown the bullshit out and get back some order but unfortunately as she didn't she may as well not have even been there.
But hey, everything's fine, 'technology', 'turbo-charging' and 'super-charging' will sort everything out and we'll boom post-Brexit, enough to afford tax-cuts AND public sector spend increases. I can't wait
I wonder how different things would be if lying politicians would ever be held to account (preferably through capital punishment)...
According to Reuters, Labour will now back a 2nd referendum as their main Brexit policy and will make an announcement today.
Labour will now back a 2nd referendum as their main Brexit policy and will make an announcement today
to late, f*** them, get rid of Corbyn el al and then we can talk.
According to Reuters, Labour will now back a 2nd referendum as their main Brexit policy and will make an announcement today.
Will there be a flow chart?
I'm not sure they haven't left it far far too late, they've simply eroded too much trust with the renainers. (Edit: what mrmo said ^^)
Not to mention Barry Gardiner will be along shortly after to completely contradict what might be said today.
Rory Stewart stance! Half Man Half Biscuit remix anyone?
About time, quite probably too late. And if it is true, I still expect another policy deception, lets see what the referendum question they support before getting too excited.
I want a remain alliance and I want it now.
Hopefully Tom Watson is giving grandad a Chinese burn.
According to Reuters, Labour will now back a 2nd referendum as their main Brexit policy and will make an announcement today.
I really want to find a phrase that is far more rude than "closing the barn door after the horse has bolted."
Even if this isn't true, you will see a "policy shift" from the brexit leadership of the labour party over the summer, it is so timed so that when Brexit happens they can hold their hands up and say "at least we tried to stop it" while expecting everyone to conveniently forget what they did in the previous three years.
I wonder if we'd be better off with Labour keeping their current course, and picking up the scraps to push the Tories in to 4th place. A shift to anything else risks further fragmentation of the remain vote and that's the last thing we need. The various remain factions still haven't learnt the populist lesson. Keep it simple, stupid.
lets see what the referendum question they support before getting too excited.
Tick either
Labour fantasy yet to be negotiated deal.
No deal.
I really want to find a phrase that is far more rude than “closing the barn door after the horse has bolted.”
Reaching for the condom after having intercourse with a know HIV carrying lady / man of the night?
Taking the imodium after the toilet after your what yourself?
Deleting your search history after your partner opens your laptop to the last used website and finds a empty packet of tissues by the sofa and a wet patch?
I'm sure we'll get the usual. Jezza sat there looking like a hostage being forced to read a statement saying that his captors are treating him well, then saying
The Labour Party will commit to supporting a second referendum, if...
if...
if...
if...
if...
if...
if...
if...
if...
if...
Oh, and remain won't be an option
Oh, and remain won’t be an option
Unfortunate.
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1140939099538436096
Yeah, but the Lexits are still selecting very different data points, to justify their position:
[ briefing doc given to the shadow cabinet ahead of today's meeting ]