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Hands up if you're in London, rather than "the regions"… not me.
It's Brexit cheerleaders who are retired to places like the Dordogne (Nigel Lawson being a prime example). Stop with this idea that those who want either a soft Brexit or to keep membership aren't working class, and are all in London. It's patronising bollocks @Dazh.
I’m especially looking forward to London twitteristas howling about how unfair it all is that the oiks in the regions want to damage their chances of retiring to the Dordogne.
So you think wrecking rich pensioners retirement plans is the worst that's going to happen post Brexit?
Kelvin the London thing was a joke, and about as serious as Cougar's watching the world burn nonsense 🙂
Although if I was to take a straw poll of all the people I know, I'm fairly sure all the working class ones voted out, and all the middle class ones with lots of money voted in. None of them to my knowledge voted tory. What does that strictly anecdotal evidence tell us?
but kelvin you don't understand dazh is the only true voice of the working classes, it is clear to me now that I just imagined my inner city childhood in Manchester, my life of crappy manual jobs and periods of unemployment that broke me financially and mentaly, were nothing but a dream, never being able to get on the housing ladder was just an illusion, instead I am apparently destined to retire to France.
What does that strictly anecdotal evidence tell us?
It's the most well off people I know that voted Brexit. Most of them pensioners who were well paid professionals. Everyone else I know thought about how it might effect their job, and the career chances of their children, and the type of country we are to become, and decided on balance to vote to Remain. Just anecdotes though.
You conveniently ignored the next paragraph where I said remainers should vote tactically. Not like you to use selective quoting and misrepresentation to make a point.
It's not selective quoting. For years across this forum I've quoted the pertinent bit of what I'm replying to for the benefit of context / conversation flow rather than pasting wall-of-text copy. There's little point in C&Ping a post that's (usually) one or two posts back in its entirety, it just clutters up the thread.
But seeing as you mention it, here's your post again in its entirety including the bits about tactical voting which I conveniently ignored:
They are offering a second vote. There really is no reason not to vote labour. Be honest, the only reason you won’t is because Corbyn is leader. I understand how many remainers are uncomfortable voting for labour when it has a soft brexit leader, but the alternative is Boris with Farage pulling his strings. If you are a remainer and in a labour marginal, voting for anyone but labour delivers the thing you don’t want. For that obvious reason I reckon many will stick with labour when it comes to the crunch.
I've no need to try to misrepresent you when you do such a good job of it on your own.
Its all a front with Daz. He actually runs a grouse shooting business on his acres of moorland where he entertains Russian Oligarchs, then offshores his money to the Cayman Islands
I’m especially looking forward to London twitteristas howling about how unfair it all is that the oiks in the regions want to damage their chances of retiring to the Dordogne.
This London twitteristo is howling that his wife can't retire with him in the UK. Didn't seem too much to ask, really?
Watching Newsnight? Looks like Watson was supposed to be supporting a move by Corbyn… that never happened…
https://twitter.com/sturdyalex/status/1140739835734450176?s=21
Also watching newsnight... Kate Hoey is madder than a box of frogs. I’m pretty sure she should be with Farage in the Brexit party. Wouldn’t surprise me in the least if that where she ends up. Bonkers!
Looks like things are coming to a head with labour, and a ‘leader’ who doesn’t represent the views of the overwhelming majority of labour MP’s, members or voters, but does represent the views of Kate Hoey
Hoey is simply diabolical.
Like a Katie Hopkins with more influence.
She was a bit excited about Raab, wasn't she.
. UK politics has a huge problem with inertia, and people either blindly vote for whomever they’ve always voted for or have long memories (tuition fees / Iraq war / etc etc) which have little relevance to where we are today
Oh come on, that's a ridiculous thing to say. Long memories? It was easily within the last couple of decades. And to make it worse I voted for that at the time.
(And look at the Iranian thing now bubbling up, Corbyn being slammed by the suggestion we shouldn't rush in. )
It has complete relevance as some of us put those things below Brexit on the geo-political scale - you know like slavishly going to war as a means of keeping the country on an ethical footing.
It's all been said, but clearly my priorities about the way society should function are different than yours and lots on here
Basically I'd sooner have a Labour Brexit than a Tory one, and that's the likely choice. We don't want Labour back to where it was previously - and that's not a long memory by any shot.
Things have been pretty shitty under the Tories whilst in the EU (Austerity etc) - we're huge decline and don't think keeping any of those in power means we've done okay.
When the credit card/debt bubble bursts again we will need something other than this debate. And carrying on neoliberal policies won't save us either.
Just anecdotes though.
Whereas most of my working class large family voted Brexit as did most of the people where I live (full of rich people). But where I work (IT) not a single person that I am aware of supports Brexit. So every-bodies anecdotes are different, therefore worthless.
Basically I’d sooner have a Labour Brexit than a Tory one, and that’s the likely choice.
The choice is Brexit or a Labour government. If it comes to a snap General Election before we Leave, it is Corbyn who will have to make that choice. If he promises to deliver Brexit, he dooms the party to opposition for another five years. There will be no Labour Brexit. You need to ignore @Del's post to continue thinking otherwise.
The ability of the labour leadership, Rone & dazh etc to ignore every single poll & the last 2 national elections* is really quite impressive
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* I'll add in the Peterborough by-election: scraping a few hundred votes against a party with no leader after a decade of austerity & the other party with no manifesto... is a hollow victory.
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Ultimately tho I think labour have blown it, even if they switched to remain tomorrow 3 years of fence sitting has blown away trust in them
Corbyn, Seamus, Ian and Len are in their bunker, completely ignoring all evidence and polling (which is telling them what they don't want to hear) and the majority of Labour MP's, members and voters (hurray for 'restoring party democracy!), as they just want to see the Brexit project completed that they've dedicated themselves too for decades
And while everyone is accusing Boris of hiding, that's exactly what Corbyn is doing. He cancelled a meeting with MP's yesterday as he knew it would be even angrier than a week ago, and the only statement he's issued says that he will review Labours Brexit Policy when they discuss it at conference in September. When, of course, it will be too late to effect any change on a Tory Brexiteer PM determined to drive through Brexit in October. Which is, of course, exactly what he wants.
Corbyn wants Brexit, without his fingerprints on it. Sorry Jezza, but your fingerprints are all over it. As the present polling is showing. We're not idiots, and Corbyn and his team are treating the electorate with equal contempt as the hideous candidates for the Tory leadership.
Tom Watson seems to have no problem seeing what's actually going on
Its a sad state of affairs where we know the labour leadership have no intention of saving the country from an economic catastrophe, and instead, we're looking desperately to more moderate Tory's like Ken Clake and Dominic Grieve to do what the Labour party should be doing - providing an opposition
This is just absolutely batshit.
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1140885358231609345
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1140885366360203264
That is ****ing insane! That actually takes insane to a new level that I don't think the English language is capable of describing.
And these are the ****ing morons that are wagging the dog.
Brexit is a con job, the Tories are are corrupt lawyer arranging for your life savings to be transferred to Nigeria, and labour are thicko relative encouraging you to sign the documents and lending you money instead of phoning the police.
****ing hell. Swivel eyed loons indeed.
Don't mind the Tory party being destroyed and significant damage to the economy and the break-up of the Union, as long as Corbyn doesn't get in!
Barking! Does anyone have Paul McKenna's number? We need someone to undo this mass hypnotism.
and the only statement he’s issued says that he will review Labours Brexit Policy when they discuss it at conference in September. When, of course, it will be too late to effect any change on a Tory Brexiteer PM determined to drive through Brexit in October. Which is, of course, exactly what he wants.
You've spent the last few months bemoaning the fact that Corbyn is a dicatator who doesn't respect party democracy, yet now you protest that he's not unilaterally overriding the primary democratic mechanism within the party to set policy. What would you have him do between between now and September?
Corbyn has one primary and extremely difficult job, which is to hold the labour party together until the next election. Forget stopping brexit, fighting elections, or being an 'effective' opposition (whatever that means). If the party splits, it's game over. The only hope is to follow procedure, get to the conference, and allow it to do it's work. It's the only hope of holding the party together and setting a policy which can be respected and supported by all.
It has always been thus. I remember a similar poll taken when the whole thing with the Northern Ireland backstop became an issue. At the time IIRC about 80% of Tory voters and Bexit supporters said they didn't actually care if Brexit meant the end of the Good Friday agreement.
But what do we expect? These people exist in a bubble. Living a nice comfortable existence in the leafy home counties, they never saw the reality of the violence in Northern Ireland, except when it occasionally intruded with a bomb on the mainland. The same way that they never had to deal with the reality of catastrophic deindustrialisation in the 80's, other than thinking that the miners were a frightful bunch of lefties when they watched it on the news.
They have only ever benefitted from Tory policies. In fact, the further to the right the policy, the better it's been for them. Hence their support of this 'Brexit at all costs' approach. They'll be alright whatever happens. And by nature of being Tory's, we know that they couldn't give a flying **** about anyone else, particularly the poorest, who will be hit hardest
Forget stopping brexit, fighting elections, or being an ‘effective’ opposition (whatever that means). If the party splits, it’s game over.
🤦🏻♂️
The party has already split. A handful of MPs left. A few more might well leave if the promise of a Labour government delivering Brexit is dropped, but that is dwarfed by the loss of voters if it is not.
What happens if a general election is called before September? Key MPs are calling for the decision to made ASAP, with the full involvement of members. Why wait 'till September? We know why… a Brexitier leader hoping to keep his own policy in place. Sadly. Who can blame him for wanting to set the agenda for any government in which he would be PM… but he promised us a different way of doing things.
Conference wanted a 2nd ref last year, the leadership sidestepped them with the "all options are on the table" bullshit, it was a con, they never delivered a GE but still won't swing behind a 2nd ref.
And the thing is, making a case for remain, would have actually allowed the possibility of a soft brexit (Norway ++ or whatever it is called). By not making that case, the narrative has been allowed to harden and now we are only arguing about no deal, hard brexit or remain, the opportunity to compromise has been wasted by the fence sitting and fantasy promises.
Not sure whether this has been posted here, sad reading.
To be honest, if anyone is holding out hope that Labour under the current leadership are EVER going to **really** push for a 2nd ref or a very soft Brexit they should really ask themselves if they're being rational or just too stubborn or loyal to accept their chosen Party no longer represents their views.
Indeed. Plenty of us have now (with a heavy heart) given up on Labour party completely now. They're just a hopeless case under Brexiteer Corbyn. The leadership are clearly just as pro-Brexit as the Tory's and have absolutely no intention whatsoever of delivering a second referendum, or indeed anything at all that would prevent Brexit.
And Daz's idea that people like me are going to bite the bullet, hold their noses and return to labour is an absolute fantasy, I'm afraid. There's absolutely no way on earth I'm ever going to vote for a pro-Brexit party, just so I can have '80% of people voted for pro-Brexit party, so we must respect the will of the people' bullshit thrown back in my face
I don't think many of us are going to fall for that crap again. We're not total mugs!
And I do love this idea that former labour voters delivering a Tory government is somehow their fault, rather than the fault of a useless, pro-Brexit labour leadership for making their position impossible to vote for, for glaringly obvious reasons.
And as the latest insane polling shows, the next general election will be completely different from any that have gone before it. The two party cartel is lying in tatters, so you've now got more reason than ever before to vote for a party that represents you (hello Lib Dems, Green Party and SNP), rather than the least worst option of the usual two suspects
Barking! Does anyone have Paul McKenna’s number? We need someone to undo this mass hypnotism.
It's OK Uri Geller is on it.
vinnyeh
Not sure whether this has been posted here, sad reading.
Actually I think it will be the best thing for the UK to become the unUK.
And not just because I support Scottish independence. I think it would also benefit England to be able to sail its own course without worrying about the smaller countries. And independent small countries seem to thrive these days.
FFS current Labour policy is what? Election or Labour brexit or 2nd ref, right?
They've failed to get the first, as the no confidence vote failed, also the second, either because of the first or because negotiations failed with the government ( surprise!), so now, please, where is this 2nd ref? Because if we're all agreeing on policy and getting behind it, the getting better get going.
It's not going to happen. Labour have had the most shambolic and disarrayed conservatives in history and they have completely failed by every measure available.
They've done a cracking job of making themselves completely irrelevant.
A quick relaunch and the lib Dems will be in power, if we're very lucky.
And Daz’s idea that people like me are going to bite the bullet, hold their noses and return to labour is an absolute fantasy, I’m afraid. There’s absolutely no way on earth I’m ever going to vote for a pro-Brexit party, just so I can have ‘80% of people voted for pro-Brexit party, so we must respect the will of the people’ bullshit thrown back in my face
Binners - Exactly the same here but from the other end of the political spectrum. Voted Tory most of my adult life, but LibDem local and Euros this time. Can't see that changing at the next general, and if Boris is Conservative leader definitely not - I'll never vote for him after the damage he did in the referendum. And I'm someone who is a remainer and sees a Corbyn government as a bigger threat than Brexit ( or rather its a McDonnell chancellorship and the destruction that could bring I fear. Corbyn would be more of an embarrassment than anything else.)
Gowrie. Both the labour party and the Tory's have had the two-party 'to me... to you' system serve them so well for so long that they just don't know what to do now that it's being put to the sword.
Just look at the complacency! When faced with the threat from the right of the Brexit Party, and from the Lib Dms/Green/SNP from the liberal-leaning remainers, both main parties are like rabbits in the headlights. They're paralysed. They haven't got a clue what to do.
Farage nicking huge chunks of the Tory vote should be an absolute gift for the labour party. An open goal. But instead of trying to attract more liberal, disaffected remainer Tories like yourself, They've just sat dithering under a truly staggeringly incompetent 'leadership' still married to its 1970's, knee-jerk anti-europeanism
I think its too late to change tack now. They've absolutely ****ed it! Their core support deserted them in their millions at the EU and local elections. And guess what, Jeremy? We're not coming back. Not while we have much more palatable alternatives to vote for who actually have a proper policy position, and the next election is absolutely wide open. They're just going to carry on losing more voters in droves. They had their chance and they couldn't have more effectively blown it!
The Tory's are screwed at a General Election anyway, due to Farage stealing their vote. Hence the present leadership contenders continuing to promise absolute fantasy politics about unicorn-based renegotiations and no deal
Christ only knows what the next parliament will look like. Certainly, like nothing this country has ever seen before. Personally, I'd love to see a Lib Dem majority, but I doubt there's any chance of anyone getting a majority. Its going to be chaos!
The Tory’s are screwed at a General Election anyway, due to Farage stealing their vote. Hence the present leadership contenders continuing to promise absolute fantasy politics about unicorn-based renegotiations and no deal
The Tories only hope is to deliver Brexit and hope the Brexit party collapses. But even then it currently doesn't offer a broad enough appeal to attract centre rightists like myself and less liberal Little Englander Brexiteers etc. They will have to again choose who to appeal to. They're unlikely to tend towards the centre, I fear.
Out of interest Gowrie, do you think that there's anybody within the Tory party who could lead them back to electoral relevance, and wrestle the party back from the ERG?
Or is it too far gone for that now?
Surely trying to out-Farage Farage is never going to work? Your own opinions have just illustrated why. ALong with the despair to business. The Tory's 'Party of Business' claim was surely finished with Borises "**** business!" remark.
Slight change of current conversation - but, if you go to a Tory/Labour/Lib Dem/SNP/Green party rally would they charge you for tickets? Or do you only have to pay to see racists?
https://twitter.com/brexitparty_uk/status/1140948466744664066
Not without precedent. They tried selling tickets to the Labour big concert thing… and then gave them away to try and swell the attendance… and then members unveiled a big STOP BREXIT type banner and upset those that claim to be on their side.
Working through options on chances of Brexit 2nd ref (or revoke A50) my analysis is:
(1)Tory leadership will never voluntarily allow a second ref. Even the liberal commentariat darling Stewart has said he would not go 2nd ref. That means (a) a Brexit deal is voted through Parly, (b) no deal by default but against will of Parly or (c) general election either forced or chosen by Tory leader.
(2) 2nd ref is voted through by Parly - too many Labour against as things stand - although Tory rebels may swing behind if alternative is a catastrophic general election.
(3) There is a GE (see 1 above) and returns a big enough coalition of Labour, lib-dem, SNP, green Plaid etc MPs to force 2nd ref (or revoke). But requires Labour to stand on remain platform
(4) There is a GE and Boris stands on a no deal platform, wins and we crash out.
...any more?
…any more?
Government is voted down by parliament in October, replacement interim PM asks EU for an extension while a general election takes place… result of election is no one has overall control… SNP, LibDem, PC and some key ex-Conservative MPs refuse to allow any minority government that doesn't allow a referendum… another interim PM asks for another extension for a referendum… we Leave in May 2020 at the earliest (if at all). Yet another general election in 2020 to try and get a majority, or at least a working minority government. The fall out from another referendum results in an even more fractured parliament, with a weak coalition government of some form trying to avoid a third election. Maybe. It'll probably get messier, whatever.
One thing is certain, we will look back to 2019 fondly, when the rest of the world was mostly hiding its incredulity at what has happened to us, rather than laughing in our face.
Sweet Jesus! Imagine being at a Brexit Party Rally? In Birmingham?
A room full of angry gammons, being served 'light refreshments' by the NEC staff who will no doubt all be from Poland and Latvia
When you think of the majority that Blair had in 97, imagine how many of those were soft tory/soft lab and where are they now?? There is a massive opportunity but no one seems to want to pose anything moderate, and the disaffection in politicians that drove the referendum vote is getting worse.
Watching Jo Swinson, who looks nailed on to take over from Uncle Vince, interviewed on Newsnight last week, it seems we're about to get a competent party leader who isn't mental.
And the Lib Dems are comfortably polling above Labour and the Tories at the moment, on a solid, unambiguous anti-Brexit message, so with a new, younger leader...
Sweet Jesus! Imagine being at a Brexit Party Rally? In Birmingham?
A room full of angry gammons, being served ‘light refreshments’ by the NEC staff who will no doubt all be from Poland and Latvia
"Extra cream with your coffee sir?"
Lets hope the libdems don't shoot themselves in the foot and anoint Chuka as leader.