Forum menu
The longer Merkel is in office, the greater the horizons of her thinking expand. On April 17, 2018, members of the parliamentary group of Merkel's conservatives met in the Reichstag, the seat of German parliament. It was an opportunity to speak fundamentally about the EU and its future. Merkel offered a very odd twist at the meeting by taking a mental excursion into the early modern era. According to notes taken by attendees, she spoke about the bloody confessional wars that followed the Reformation and only came to an end with the Peace of Augsburg in 1555. At the time, Merkel said, people had the false belief that the period of strife and violence was behind them.
"But then the generation that had experienced all the misery before religious peace died," Merkel said. "They were gone. A new generation came that said: We don't want to make so many compromises. This is all too difficult for us." What followed was the catastrophe of the Thirty Years' War, which broke out in 1618. It ignited an inferno that would annihilate around one-third of the population on the territory of today's Germany and leave cities like Magdeburg in ruins.
"More than 70 years have also passed since the end of World War II," Merkel continued. She pointed out that great efforts were undertaken at the time to prevent a repeat of the carnage. The United Nations and the Security Council were established, and the international community agreed on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Merkel's message was clear: Just as people at the beginning of the 17th century lulled themselves into a deceptive sense of security, people today are once again deluding themselves about the stability of the world order. The layer of varnish covering civilization is a thin one.
On April 26, 2018, Merkel departed for Washington for her second visit to Donald Trump in the Oval Office. The trip was overshadowed by the threat of punitive tariffs against German cars. Merkel, though, was primarily concerned that Trump was about to withdraw from agreements that had been laboriously negotiated over the course of years and decades: the nuclear deal with Iran and the Paris climate agreement. A few months after her meeting with the president, Merkel once again spoke of the fragile Augsburg religious peace, saying: "Whether we have learned from history will become apparent in the coming decades."
That argument against retreating from international cooperation and interpendance was made admirablly by Shelia Hancock back in 2016, in the Channel4 referendum debate. It's the kind of thing Boris turned into "Project Fear predicts WWIII" to neuter the case for working together rather than pulling apart.
Anyway, back to the ever more obvious gap between what I'd call "Labour" and the runaway "Leadership" team of Corbyn&Milne&Murray&Lavery&Co on Brexit…
We've already done us ordinary voters… let's look at the much more committed members…
https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1134129653424250880?s=21
That’s not bringing the country together, that’s abdicating responsibility.
That's exactly what it is. Faced with a tough decision, the Labour leadership* decided to basically sit back and take on the role of spectators and let the Tory's get on with it, unencumbered. Apart from the critical junctures where Brexit looked in potential jeopardy when they quickly swung behind it with 3 line whips to carry on their Brexit facilitating
They all actually want Brexit, of course, as they're all lifelong Brexiteers. But obviously, they're too gutless and dishonest to actually come out and say that. They want it, but they don't want their fingerprints on it. Thus when it all goes to shit, which they know will happen very very quickly, they can sweep in to rescue a grateful nation that finally realises what it needed all along was, in fact, Socilaism/Corbynism
Unfortunately for them, most of us aren't that gullible. This thread is demonstrating some notable exceptions to that, but mainly....
* The word is used figuratively in this instance etc....
Klopp talking more sense than our politicians
https://twitter.com/channel4news/status/1134103954420391937?s=21
Actually thats pretty much what Turkey has so its perfectly possible.
I'll bear that in mind the next time I'm preparing a letter of invitation in order to support their visa application, so a visitor can come over from Turkey to see us for a few days...
a stupid idea yes but its feasable and possible
At least we can agree on that! 🙂
Already posted.
when they quickly swung behind it with 3 line whips to carry on their Brexit facilitating
Apart from whipping to support a second referendum twice and all the other occasions labour whipped against brexit. stop with the falshoods
Del - IIRC turkey has a customs union with the EU but is not in the single market and there is no freedom of movement.
The end result is pointless virtue signalling over a never going to happen referendum, and a split in the labour vote
This has happened. Now what do we do? Besides wish that it hadn't happened and vaguely hope that the remainers unsplit and back the discredited leader? How about take a clear stop brexit position? Not only would this be advantageous in electoral terms, it's also the right thing to do.
Oh Jesus H Corbett. How many times...
1. Three line whipped his MPs to trigger article 50, despite having nothing more concrete than ‘Brexit means Brexit’ about what was next
2. Three line whipped his MPs to remain outside the EEA and the customs union
3. Three line whipped his MPs to leave the single market
No... nothing at all very Brexity about any of that. I can understand your confusion.
Move along now. Nothing to see here...
indeed binners. 3 line whip in favour of a second ref twice plus other anti brexit whippings. Its confused and nuanced not brexit at all costs as you like to claim
BTW - are Abbot and O'Donnel included in your secret cabl that controls labour - they used to be IIRC but now both have come down firmly on the side of a second ref.
The people of the UK are going to pay a heavy price so that a few tax evading billionaires can continue to evade tax
Maybe they should work harder instead of sitting whining about how folks did better than they did.
It’s not really that nuanced, is it? It’s pretty straightforward support for Brexit at every critical vote. I don’t know where the nuance is in that.
The Corbyn cabal does seem to be shrinking by the day though, as even former close allies become exasperated with his hopeless Brexit facilitating. I see Paul Mason is the latest to be cast out. Looks like it’s just 4 or 5 of the hardcore Brexiteers in the bunker with him now.
He just says what Seamus tells him to say nowadays. Hence today’s statement
Del – IIRC turkey has a customs union with the EU but is not in the single market and there is no freedom of movement.
TJ this has been pointed out multiple times on this thread but the ignorance of some remainers of the workings of the EU makes the "gammons" seem extremely well informed.I don't think they should be allowed to vote in any subsequent referendum because they're clearly too thick.
Great quote from a former Corbyn supporter on the frankly brilliant ‘The Thick of it’ Facebook page...
You, Jeremy... when you asked me to join you, all you had was your principles, but over the last two years you've bent like a human *ing palm tree, swaying to the guff of these six-toed, born-to-rule pony*ers!
Sorry, the point I meant to add, but forgot to, crucially, is that despite the customs Union arrangements with Turkey, it is still difficult and expensive to get equipment in to and out of the place. Often 2 weeks to ship a piece of kit one way that would be anywhere within the EU the next morning. Turkey's arrangements are very far from where we need to be.
I don't think anyone is disputing a customs union yet not in the single market isn't possible.
It's just it's a shit idea.
philxx1975
Maybe they should work harder instead of sitting whining about how folks did better than they did.
They pay their taxes, don't they?
It might be time to just let Corbyn&Milne&co carry on as they are, as regards Brexit, hope for a snap General Election, and just move on…
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1134207549249654786?s=20
why are the labour leadership too dim to understand this?
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1134211135719321600
My goodness some brexiteers really are deluded! I have some in my family - they vote for Rees Mogg. They are now saying that "we knew there would be lean times and we voted for a clean break!" given that this is not what all the leading brexiteers said at the time of the referendum its an absurd position. also all the evidence you give them on the lies of Mogg and Farage is just dismissed.
completely deluded!
torsoinalake
Member
I don’t think anyone is disputing a customs union yet not in the single market isn’t possible.It’s just it’s a shit idea.
Actually on this thread people keep saying this is impossible. Red unicorns apparantly
completely deluded!
Some of my relations have doubled down in that fashion, others now don't trust that any UK government could get a Brexit in the manner that was suggested in 2016, so want it stopped, despite still being against the EU. Keep talking and listening to them though… the rest of this year could see more changes to attitudes yet.
Red unicorns apparantly
No one who has looked in detail at how the Customs Arrangements that Turkey enjoys with the EU functions would compare it to The Customs Union that we currently enjoy. It's not just about swapping "the" for "a" … go have a read and see if you consider it anything like "frictionless trade" or adequate for UK:rEU trade to continue at current levels.
The issue for labour is how to attract remain floating voters but not lose the leave voting labour voters. Its no good them grabbing a few or even a lot of votes in safe tory seats while losing dozens of MPs from leave areas. Going all out remain or even second ref could well lose them huge numbers of seats.
"While Wigan has sent a Labour MP to parliament in every general election since 1918, the town rejected the party’s campaign to remain in the EU and voted strongly (63.9%) to leave in 2016. In the European elections last week, a resounding 41% of voters backed the Brexit party, pushing Labour into second place as it shed almost one-fifth of its vote compared with 2014.
In second referendum terms, 50% of people in Wigan voted for no deal-supporting parties or candidates, while only 21% backed the three remain parties – the Liberal Democrats, the Green party and Change UK. "
Read the whole article - its worth it to try to understand why labour has little option but to trey to keep these voters on board. another limitation of FPTP
TJ - those former (tribal) labour Brexit-supporting voters have already gone. History. And they’re never ever coming back. They’re Farage’s now. You have to be pretty deluded not to see that. Labour only hope is to try and stop the exodus in the other direction
It’s probably much too late for that though
I wonder how many non-mental labour MPs are looking at that polling, on top of last weeks results, are phoning uncle Vince up for a chat?
Those figures surely can’t come as a surprise to anyone*, and once these things reach a certain tipping point they start to become self-fuelling
If this is the death of the Labour Party then it’s well deserved for years of absolutely incoherent political cluelessness under Corbyn. What on earth did you expect? A socialist revolution? And the electoral oblivion of the Tory’s is always a good day!
If the politically homeless centre coalesce around the Lib Dem’s.. great. At least we’ve (the 48%) now got some political representation.
‘Bollocks to Brexit!’ Was a piece of political genius. It understands the political environment we’re now operating in
* apart from Magic Grandad, obvs
Kelvin - I agree its a stupid position and would not work nearly as well as what we have now - but it its possible.
Biunners - read the post above please and the article linked to. Its nothing like as simplistic as you pretend. Gaining votes in areas they will never win seats while losing them in areas they do win seats will not win an election. UK wide stats do not tell the whole story. the country is too divided.
possible
Something called "a Customs Union" is possible… the arrangements May sought could have been called one, if not for how badly that would go down with Brexit cheerleaders… the problem is the pretence that one would deliver what we have now, or anything like it.
TJ - do you not see that we’re at electoral Ground Zero? Farage does. All bets are off! Corbyn hasn’t even entered the 1980’s yet, so we can forget him
The Lib Dem’s seem to have cottoned on to the new political reality. And look where they are today! 2 years ago they were dead men walking
Binners - please read the article I linked to about voting intentions in the northern towns. It shows that your simplistic thinking on this will not work. a out and out remain labour will lose dozens of seats in the north of england to brexit party without gaining significant numbers in remain areas
A message from the North of England… there are millions of people here who haven't bought into the Farage message, and need someone to vote for. Our region elected fewer Labour MEPs, and more LibDem/Green MEPs, than we previously had. The same happened elsewhere. Labour should, and could, have walked this election, and the local ones as well.
The polls are showing we do indeed now have someone to vote for. And these things tend to gain momentum (no pun intended)
Karl Marx’s Garden Gnome will be polling single figures within a month. Same with the Tory’s
The two party system is now dead! Ironic that it was the combination of David Cameron and Jeremy Corbyn that signed its death warrant
BInners - have yo read that piece?
Lisa Nandy has been saying the same thing for the last 12 months, and looks to lose her seat no matter what happens now.
Look at the voting numbers tho - its shows a very differnt picture to that in other parts of the country. Its not just Nandy - its all similar seats across the north ie labour heartlands where they are losing votes for not being brexity enough
TJ - I’ve read it and like I said; that ships already sailed. Those voters are never coming back to the Labour Party.
So why to try and court them, half-heartedly, when they’ve got full blooded Brexit bullshit with Farage?
Its just alienating the socially liberal middle classes who are now moving over, en masse, to the Lib Dem’s after 3 years of being ignored
The two main parties both deserve everything they’re about to get.
I suspect we won’t be hearing any more calls for a GE from Magic Grandad any time soon.
Give up TJ. No one’s interested in actual sensible discussion. Kelvin even came pretty close to calling me a racist earlier. Remain virtue signalling all the way now. A few years down the line when chancellor Farage has privatised the NHS and PM boris has brought back hanging they’ll all still be on here moaning about how it’s all Jeremy Corbyn’s fault.
I’ve never been more convinced than I am now that the remain side (on here at least, thankfully out in the real world people seem a bit more sensible) have lost the plot. When they employ all the nefarious tactics of Trump and Farage and lower themselves to their level the argument is lost.
One last question though, is it really worth embarking on a pointless and destructive culture war because of the difference between ‘the’ customs union and ‘a’ customs union? Madness!
they are losing votes for not being brexity enough
Which will also happen if they try to deliver "not true Brexit as currently described by the chosen one*"… Labour don't win these people back by promising a Brexit in a form they don't want.
[ *Farage ]
Kelvin even came pretty close to calling me a racist earlier.
I asked you to expand on which "side" of the Labour Party is "multi-ethnic". I've never been aware that the party was split along such lines, and seriously wanted to know what you meant by it.
One last question though, is it really embarking on a pointless and destructive culture war because of the difference ‘the’ customs union and ‘a’ customs union?
No, but what we replace our current arrangements with other countries with, especially those we are surrounded by, is key to Brexit. That a third of the country thinks it is voting for "no arrangements" is maddening enough, but the vague and disingenuous approach to these issues by key politicians THREE YEARS after we voted to leave is depressing.
Binners - corbyn was calling for a GE today.
Well I did ask you to elaborate and unless I missed it, I didn’t see a reply. In any case if I was wrong I’m pleased about that. Small mercies!
Christ on a bendybus! He’s completely and utterly detached from reality!
I gather he’s just doing that as a default position as it’s just what he always does in these situations
Still thinks he’d win a general election? Totally ****ing clueless! Somebody needs to have a quiet word and keep his Boris-esque desire to be PM in check