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The EU removes loads of bureaucracy. You are naive if you think otherwise.
Like I said the EU bureaucratic system just happened to appear at the wrong time and at the wrong moment. They need to be dismantle.
We will have shitloads more paperwork if we leave.
The problem with bureaucracy is that they are not satisfied with having power in their own organisation and system. They want to extend their power beyond themselves to impose on others. "Paperworks" is the least of your worries.
I’m glad you agree – I mean for you all you know their manifesto might just be sterlisation of all those that voted for us.
I think you should make it clearer to All of them.
Tell them they need to show their manifesto.
Whats it like, being you?
Farage will be a better PM than Gove or Bojo
Okay, who can you trust to remove bureaucracy? (as that oddly seems to be your main issue)
Certainly not the main parties at the moment as they are going to make it worst. They are making the EU bureaucratic machinery much more powerful and I want to dismantle that. The best way for me to do so is by voting for anyone that can have a chance of dismantling that.
Would this be the removal of bureaucracy that has resulted in every single government department recruiting and training loads and loads more staff, at huge expense, to cope with their increased workload?
That depends on who are managing them. As we the former colonial state used to say the British are very good at Administration ... The British are "born" or trained bureaucrats and they will deal with it. That is why I want the already bureaucratic British system to be out of an even larger EU bureaucratic system.
The only ‘removal of bureaucracy’ will be when they abolish environmental controls and employment law, so thats two things that will no longer need to be enforced
That all depends on the people ...
Not enough milkshakes in the world if that happens.
Not really been keeping up with what’s going on BREXIT wise – so can someone explain a couple of things to me please.
May’s new deal – if voted through also includes an allowance for Parliament to vote on whether we should have another referendum?
Isn’t this basically so she can get them to pass it and then say “I delivered a deal – but the rest of Government wants to have a re-count”
I have become ambivalent to BREXIT and politics as the elected representatives feel it’s ok to push their own agenda and not what their constituents or country voted for.
So if they back May’s deal can we guarantee that there will be another vote? If there is I think it’ll be to remain.
But if we do remain I think we need to look long and hard at our relationship with the EU.
I said as much yesterday.
We (STW) are really no better than all the entrenched Brexiteers If we assume we know best and won't be happy until someone unilaterally revokes A50. If that happens it could be as bad for the UK as leaving, worse as we tear ourselves apart over it for a generation or more.
What I want, and what a lot of people want is a 2nd, fact based vote - not a Remain or Unicorns vote, a vote - this is 'the deal' the Negotiations are over, they're done, that was last year and the year before and I'm sure the JRM, Farage and Boris's of the world will say they'd had done a better job, but they didn't do a good enough job to get into a position to do so, so what?
So, the people of the UK - do you want to Remain as we are now, or Leave under the terms the Government has negotiated? If we vote to leave then that sucks, but at least we did so knowing our fate.
Ideally I'd like to see Farage especially put under a microscope, but he seems to have the right sort of friends to avoid that happening.
If both sides, now we're in possession of facts think they've got the numbers, then there's nothing to fear, and you know - we might just all accept it.
How do you measure degrees of monumentally, catastrophically awful?
One thing I think most people can all agree on is that every single one of the candidates for next PM doesn't really bear thinking about, and within weeks we'll be looking back on the Maybots term as a golden age of 'strong and stable' political leadership
Or the removal of bureaucracy that will mean spending billions of pounds on replicating existing EU systems once we can no longer use them?
There is a whole new department been set up in Reading, dealing with unfair trade practices, previously done by the EU.
They were supposed to be in place and ready to go in March, so I imagine they are sat around twiddling their thumbs at the moment.
How do you measure degrees of monumentally, catastrophically awful?
Although bureaucracy is inevitable contributing more will be catastrophic by itself. From time to time it needs to be dismantle again to restart. The cycle goes on ...
Not enough milkshakes in the world if that happens.
If you don't like democracy, don't have a democracy
One thing I think most people can all agree on is that every single one of the candidates for next PM doesn’t really bear thinking about, and within weeks we’ll be looking back on the Maybots term as a golden age of ‘strong and stable’ political leadership
Not at all Farage seems to be the least moronic of them all.
Its like a machine thats been infected by the restless, toxic spirit of Anne Widdacombe, is now malfunctioning and is just randomly generating words.
Its weirdly compelling
Chewkw, what do you think the word 'bureaucracy' actually means?
If you don’t like democracy, don’t have a democracy
Thing is, there are all sorts of different flavours of democracy. Bit like Brexit. And milkshakes.
Certainly not the main parties at the moment as they are going to make it worse
Remember though it is not about the parties or manifesto's and all that rubbish, it is all about the person you trust (your words on this very page)
So again - which person will you be voting for who is going to remove bureaucracy ?
philxx1975
Member
Farage will be a better PM than Gove or Bojo
That's a low bar to reach. My dog could probably do a better job of being PM that those two, three, and he's getting old and likes to sleep a lot more than he used to.
I understand your point though, and have a low opinion of most MPs too, but I disagree that that seems to be the least moronic, unless you think duplicity and scheming make that statement true. He's a populist with shady funding and unclear personal motivations, who pretends to be a man of the common people, whilst hiding significant personal wealth, dodgy investment and some really quite worrying personal philosophies.
If you are fine with that, fill your boots. I'm not. I can't trust someone that two-faced, that thin-skinned, that racist and inflammatory, so I do not support him or his party. Politics is about building consensus, not being divisive.
That video of Farage saying he’ll don khaki & pick up a rifle really boils my p1ss.
The closest that horrible, gutless fekker has ever got to khaki is the skid stain he left in his y-fronts!
Chewkw, what do you think the word ‘bureaucracy’ actually means?
System of administration governed by power and authority that expands beyond it intended parameters.
Its like a machine thats been infected by the restless, toxic spirit of Anne Widdacombe, is now malfunctioning and is just randomly generating words.
Its weirdly compelling
The machine analogy is commonly referred but just like a machine you replace them. Young people always want freedom etc but what they don't know is that voting for or supporting the EU bureaucratic system is actually the opposite of what they want. They don't yet but one day they will find out the hard way where power and control extend beyond the system into their lives.
From the looks of things, some of you are in danger of falling into a hole filled with non-sequitur and poorly-informed irrational nonsense. In that case, I strongly recommend the Killfile to preserve your sanity.
Back to the discussion in hand, I've tweeted prominent Brexiteers, have written to my (Conservative) MP and have asked the same question again and again.
How will Brexit benefit me and my family?
Has anyone else had an answer to this fundamental question?
Although bureaucracy is inevitable contributing more will be catastrophic by itself. From time to time it needs to be dismantle again to restart. The cycle goes on …
I read that a few times and am still not sure what you are actually saying. I assume you heard that, thought it sounded smart and you are now busy repeating it.
Give us a example of a piece of EU bureaucracy that you think is problematic and will go away in your post Brexit utopia.....
If you also have an issue with EU laws (I suspect you do) I set the same challenge there as well. Name a law that will be improved after Brexit.
*coughs*
Killfile. It'll save your sanity.
Voted Brexit party?
You’re either a very bad troll or ‘kin moron
I think that's more than just bureaucracy though Chewkw. Unless you live in a utopia, you need to have that admin chain behind your government structure. Someone, some group, has to do the turning of strategic direction into usable actions.
The problem is when that tail starts wagging the dog, when admin becomes the reason for admin. That's when it gets out of control.
I just checked the dictionary definition of the word and yes, one of the definitions does say pretty much what you say: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/bureaucracy. Wikipedia (sorry) does give a slightly more tempered version though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureaucracy
Historically, a bureaucracy was a government administration managed by departments staffed with non-elected officials.
I think we, as a country's electorate, should of course hold our politicians to account for things that extend bureaucracy more than is required to function well. But claiming that bureaucracy in itself is bad goes against the very structure of a government.
the cycle now, for me, is to anti-bureaucracy
You do realise, don't you, that centralising "bureaucracy" reduces it? You can't really be that daft naive?
If you have 28 countries that, oh I don't know, need to control the level of lead in paint say, does it make more sense to have one department doing that or 28 all duplicating effort? If you work at a company that has multiple sites you don't have Accounts and HR departments at each one, you have it all centralised. It's simpler, considerably cheaper, and more effective.
You said yourself, we're a nation of bureaucrats. The EU employs something like 45,000 people, 25,000 of which are the EU Council. This sounds a lot, but for comparison Birmingham City Council alone employs 33,000 people. The UK Civil Service is 332,800 people - ten times the EU's equivalent. And you want to move more admin from the EU to the UK? You've thought about this, haven't you.
If we leave the EU, we'll have so much red tape to deal with it'll look like a bomb went off in Hallmark. For your deity of choice's sake, don't whatever you do look at what WTO involves.
Keep it simple Cougar, you need it on the level of "EU good, Brexit bad".
Non-sequitur coming in three....two...one...
I was going to write a long-ish reply about how this is a bit of an echo chamber and so our resident brexiteers are probably trolls looking to get a rise but then i remembered i live in Spain. I'm off to take the dog to the beach, don't feed the trolls anything too disagreeable 😉
That’s a low bar to reach
Yet here we all are waiting to see who it is going to be.
pretends to be a man of the common people
I personally he's very well aligned with the common people or perhaps it is he can align them with him, wether he is duplicitous or not I cant see how he is any worse of the other two who will use whatever nefarious tactic they deem fit to get the top spot.
If you are fine with that, fill your boots
I didn't say I was fine with anything Just pointing out the march to power candidate.
How will Brexit benefit me and my family?
Unfortunately YOU and YOUR FAMILY are irrelevant in THEIR grand vision especially if your not on board.
From the looks of things, some of you are in danger of falling into a hole filled with non-sequitur and poorly-informed irrational nonsense. In that case, I strongly recommend the Killfile to preserve your sanity.
And some of us think killfile will make whats happening in the real world go away, oh dear.
personally he’s very well aligned with the common people or perhaps it is he can align them with him
I think there's two factors at play here.
First, credit where it's due, he can talk the talk. Doesn't matter if what he talks is bollocks because no-one ever calls him on it, so he can make up any old nonsense that people want to hear. People like that.
Second, take a look at those "common people" who like him so much.
Unfortunately YOU and YOUR FAMILY are irrelevant in THEIR grand vision especially if your not on board.
Hang on - so these Brucie Bonus Brexie Benefits we've been asking about for the last three years will only be available to people who agree with it? When did that happen?
Unless of course you're talking about Farage and his ilk. In which case, you're quite right, YOU are indeed irrelevant to them unless YOU share THEIR grand vision of tearing down public services, doing away with human rights, moving all your money offshore, quietly getting a (red) German passport, and possibly owning a newspaper or two.
Agree that I dont believe with the killfile but @philxx1975 if you could translate what chewy is saying that'd be great!
as for farage being no worse than the others........ hes certainly clever- hes set up a party (well a PLC) with no internal democracy whatsoever, with a completely opaque funding system with no manifesto so people can project whatever they like onto it & people are voting for him, even tho last time they voted for him it just left everyone dissapointed & the country divided
as I said before hes found his marks & he will keep milking them
so if May announces shes pulling her vote & resigns today
what do we think happens in the voting tomorrow?
will that help or hinder farage?
on the one hand many brexiteers might hope that Johnson or someone will takeover & deliver their unicorns, or will they just see it as more shambles & go full snake oil salesaman farage?
Doesn’t matter if what he talks is bollocks because no-one ever calls him on it,
Not entirely accurate. He does get called on it but just ignores it or handwaves it away normally blaming the "establishment", "elites", "remainers".
Look at how channel 4 have challenged him or Marr for that matter.
The lesson he has learnt though is so long as you are brazen about it and just throw some chaff around rather than apologising you may well get away with it.
Although I suppose it depends which crowd you are appealing to.
what do we think happens in the voting tomorrow?
My guess would be any impact if minimal. Not enough time to figure out the repercussions.
will that help or hinder farage?
I would swap this for brexit supporters. At the moment the brexiteers are winning the narrative around them having the lead. Whereas if its brexiteer parties vs remain vs unknown then its a lot more messy
Scotroutes / Yourguitarhero
ON tactical antibrexit voting in Scotland "Cable was in Edinburgh on Wednesday for the final campaign push before tomorrow’s European election, with his party in an intense three-way battle between the Tories, the Lib Dems and the Scottish Greens for the sixth and final Scottish regional seat."
AS greens were polling higher than the lib dems they might well have the best chance. Still not convinced tho.
Its looking like snp get 3, labour 1, brexit 1 and the last one between lib dem/ green / tory. I shall try to find the most up to date polling I can find to confirm this but it looks like your antibrexit tactical vote choice is between lib dems and Greens - with a possible side helping of SNP to ensure their 3rd seat.
Vote early. vote often! I want more than one vote!
So May gone by tonight according to some news sources. This whole spectacle is about to enter a very dangerous phase, as tory leadership contenders queue up to out-Farage eachother. Boris seems like a shoe-in. Time for another no confidence vote?
Roll Up Roll Up
Pick yer Poison.
Time for another no confidence vote?
Is it possible to have a NC vote on the entire party?
Is it possible to have a NC vote on the entire parliament?
If she resigned tonight, am I right in thinking it would have to wait till Friday to be discussed on the tv/radio? That (ie tomorrow) would be a weird old day wouldn’t it?
You do realise, don’t you, that centralising “bureaucracy” reduces it? You can’t really be that
daftnaive?
Centralisation reduces bureaucracy? 🤣
Let's say if I were to answer this point in my 1st year Uni exam I would fail instantly.
I can say that in all my years at Uni in UK I have never taught this argument, you are the first.
I have written a long winded explanation but decided not to post it ...
Anyway tomorrow will be a good day.
Stay healthy everyone.
So May gone by tonight according to some news sources.
Radio 4 are reporting that she's point-blank refusing any meetings with anyone. One minister is quoted as saying "it's like she's got the furniture up against the door"
Are we all looking forward to being accidental extra's in the absolute horror show that will be the Tory leadership contest? and the absolute nightmare its 'winner' will visit on us all
If we actually had an opposition party, imagine the fun they'd be having with this? Seeing their poll lead open up to Blair-esque landslide proportions? Instead of being beaten into 3rd or 4th in the EU elections behind the Lib Dems and Farage, and possibly the Greens
So May gone by tonight according to some news sources.
Woohoo! 👍 😀
Aye... Think I'll chuck my vote in for the greens. I like em and the more they get legitimised the more their electoral gravity pulls the discourse/zeitgeist in that direction
Chewy an explanation would be great because you are talking nonsense
UK civil service 340,000 (at least 20k extra added since Brexit vite)
EU civil service 46,000
Which is more bureaucratic ?
As I said don't agree with the killfile but when you refuse to explain how this fits with your rhetoric it points to trolling.
Aye… Think I’ll chuck my vote in for the greens. I like em and the more they get legitimised the more their electoral gravity pulls the discourse/zeitgeist in that direction
Check the polls carefully - It may be that lib dem or snp are a better bet to keep the tories out. I will laugh if they fail to get a seat in scotland and strong SNP vote is also a strong signal.
I think Greens are most likely to get a seat tho
4000 people at British steel, I do wonder if Farage will be getting their vote.