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If my local councillors are anything to go by its a good idea to have a clear out.
I believe whilst a small minority of vocal right wingers would continue to bump their gums, the vast majority would simply move on, as to remain would have absolutely no impact on their quality of life one way or other. It would be forgotten about by most normal folks within 12 months.
Agree. And why parliament should have voted to ignore the advisory result 3 years ago. Would have been long forgotten by most people by now as most didn't even think or care about the EU before it was all stirred up. Those that did were already backing UKIP.
Aaaand Owen Jones article seems to have backfired, plenty of people on social media now saying they are more convinced than ever not to vote labour!
Not his smartest move the day b4 local elections!
My choice this morning was limited to 1 Labour and 2 Conservative councilors. I voted Labour.
I don’t want my kids to have to live in a society which is divided into two sides who hate each other.
They already do tbh.
Rumours abound… looks like Binners was right, and I was wrong, and the May/Corbyn cook up (Hard Brexit with a "Customs Arrangement", no FoM, and vague promises on rights and standards that May's successor can just ignore) is looking more and more likely. No public vote on it as part of the cook up, of course. Timed to be after the local elections… Shit.
It often takes just one thing to switch public opinion - the final straw, if you like. I wonder if the Bombardier thing will be it? Or the next one? After all, a key argument for leave was that everything would be fine, we'll do more business outside.
Kelvin - if its gone quiet, then fear the worst. Nobody even mentioned Brexit at PMQ's this week. Its been obvious for a while that they're just waiting for the local elections to be out of the way, then announcing their stitch up in time to make sure that the EU elections don't take place. And a referendum has always looked like it would only ever take place over Corbyns dead body
The pro-brexit labour party leadership is about to sell their voters and their membership down the river on the back of their 70's, retro, anti-EU instincts. And when it does so, the labour party is finished!
Will the stitch up have to be voted through parliament?
Yes. Assumptions about Tories voting against might well change after they see the local election results… and polls for the European Elections. I dunno. They know their next leader can change it all after the vote anyway… I suspect they'll lose the support of another 100 Tory MPs, but that Labour will deliver them more than that with a three line whip. They'll then be a separate vote on a referendum, which will be narrowly lost. That's my bet… but Binners seems more on it… what you got Binners…?
In the same way as May's deal, but it would also have to be agreed by the EU if there's any deviation in the meat of the agreement with them.
I guess the withdrawal agreement itself won't change at all. Mostly because nothing will change beyond assurances about future arrangements, which won't bind Boris or notBoris anyway, and will leave the EU and all the state governments to do/say whatever they want later as well. Nothing additional for them to agree to at this stage. Current WA doesn't rule out any kind of customs cooperation, or have anything to do with the UK unilateral underpinning our workers rights and product standards with the EU ones (for a time).
I agree with you Kelvin. That’s exactly what will happen. Corbyn has 3 line whipped his MPs to enable Brexit at every critical juncture, and the deafening silence from the negotiations, plus the anti 2nd referendum position stated last week, make it pretty obvious the leadership is preparing for an epic Brexit stitch up to get Mays Deal through.
I’m sure Kier Starmer, Tom Watson and others will walk, but Corbyn won’t mind that as it’ll increase his hold on what will then be a totally unelectable Labour Party and avoid EU elections which they’re presently just as scared of as the Tories
Which one is notBoris?
I dunno, but I fully expect it to be Boris versus a "Stop Boris" candidate in the leadership contest, don't you? Both will probably promise to reject the "Labour elements" of any cook up, and will have to win Back support from the Brexit "party".
The bottom line is that pretty much any of the potential Tor leadership candidates will make May look like Kenneth Clark when it comes to Europe. That the labour leadership is too driven by its anti-EU instincts to see this is a reflection of just how rubbish they are at this politics lark.
Whatever 'concessions' they agree for this stitch-up won't last a week once May is deposed
what will then be a totally unelectable Labour Party
Just because a few on here have vowed not to vote Labour - you think so?
I reckon you're wrong.
I doubt "a few people on here" has anything to do with anything. A lot of people who voted for Labour, with Corbyn as leader, are now waiting for Labour members to take back control of their party before voting for it again.
You reckon a pro-brexit, anti-EU, anti-immigrant, hard left labour party, once the sane ones have walked, and led by Magic Grandad, will be electable?
Good luck with that.
It'd actually be comical in its political cluelessness if it wasn't going to lead to permanent tory government, probably with some absolute nutter taking over from the Maybot
Will Corbyn get a Tory or labour peerage? He has been more of an asset to the blue cause than the red.
Just because a few on here have vowed not to vote Labour – you think so?
I reckon you’re wrong.
Agree. People contributing to this thread are not the typical voter, not even close.
I voted Labour this morning, go Corbyn.
You reckon a pro-brexit, anti-EU, anti-immigrant, hard left labour party,
That only exists in your imagination and that of the right wing press?
Dagnamit - I had decided not to get involved any more in this thread
I reckon you’re wrong.
I'm pretty certain that the country at large are far less obsessed with this than the brexit denial faction on here. A deal will be agreed, there will be howling from the chattering classes at how unfair it is that the referendum result hasn't been overturned, and the rest of the country will breathe a sigh of relief that they can move on to other more important issues.
I still can't get my head around what you lot don't understand about holding a referendum and then enacting the result (yeah I know, they lied, advisory blah blah blah). Trouble is the vast majority of people outside of what is fast becoming an elitist anti-democratic cult understand it perfectly fine. You hold a vote, one side wins, you implement the result. It really is that simple in the minds of the vast majority of people.
*awaits a repetition of the usual logical gymnastics*
You hold a vote, one side wins, you implement the result.
thats working out well eh...
and the rest of the country will breathe a sigh of relief that they can move on to other more important issues.
so youre just goingto pretend the next 5+ years of futurre relationship negotiations wont be happening?
I wonder if the Bombardier thing will be it?
Bombardier selling Norin Ireland has been coming for ages and is squat to do with Brexit.
They had some useful tax breaks by locating in Northern Ireland.
The US* decided they didn't much like that sort of thing, because tax breaks are dang un-American** so the US government, entirely of their own volition decided to impose an enormous customs tax fee on Bombardier imports into the US, in order to make sure that US firms* were competing on an even***** playing field.
PS That's the US that is going to be our very best friend after Brexit, demonstrating how competitive they will allow our exports to be in world markets.
PPS Details may not all be 100% correct, but you get the gist.
*Boeing
**Boeing didn't get any
Boeing lobbied them
*Boeing
*****heavily in favour of Boeing
You hold a vote, one side wins, you implement the result. It really is that simple in the minds of the vast majority of people.
"There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat, plausible, and wrong."
Bombardier selling Norin Ireland has been coming for ages and is squat to do with Brexit.
Mebbe, but the lack of buyers lining up to take over a firm outside the EU may have something to do with Brexit.
Why would anyone in labour be pro Brexit? How does Brexit help a labour vision for the UK, or how does the UK impinge on that vision / not being in the EU allow that vision to happen more easily / at all?
A deal will be agreed, there will be howling from the chattering classes at how unfair it is that the referendum result hasn’t been overturned, and the rest of the country will breathe a sigh of relief that they can move on to other more important issues.
I know Im labouring the point but this either misdirection or ignorance over what comes next with Brexit is quite annoying
looking back at the last 3 years of farce, what or who have you seen that makes you think that the next much more complex & lengthy negotiations will be any less destructive or divisive?
Why would anyone in labour be pro Brexit? How does Brexit help a labour vision for the UK
The EU is an evil capitalist conspiracy to oppress the working man. Once free of its tyrannical rule the UK will be reborn as a socialist utopia
I know... completely laughable, isn't it? But the Corbynite left truly believe this shite
Anyone seen ninfan lately ?
from yougovs latest polling
yet still corbyn wants it to happen...
Why would anyone in labour be pro Brexit?
Votes (in their white working class heartlands).
The EU is an evil
capitalistsocialist conspiracy to oppress theworkingfree=-thinking entrepreneurial man. Once free of its tyrannical rule the UK will be reborn as asocialistfree market capitalist utopia
what or who have you seen that makes you think that the next much more complex & lengthy negotiations will be any less destructive or divisive?
Totally agree, It's going to be extremely difficult. The crux of the issue though is that having asked the voters what they want, and got an answer, the politicians are now duty-bound to enact it irrespective of how difficult it is. The voters are simply not going to accept the excuse 'sorry, we should never have asked your opinion in the first place, so we're going to pretend it never happened'. I don't want to labour the point either, but any party which says this will not be voted into government.
So do we think, then, that the prospect of asking those same people "now we know what it looks like, so do you still want it?" will be similarly unacceptable?
I can't see it...
Anyway.... in some positive news about Europe, the delightful Tommy Robinson was round our way yesterday, campaigning to be MEP for the north west, and somebody covered him in Strawberry Milkshake 😀
Milksheikh, shurely ?
The voters are simply not going to accept the excuse ‘sorry, we should never have asked your opinion in the first place, so we’re going to pretend it never happened’.
Another spot of wisdom from H L Mencken:
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
campaigning to be MEP for the north west, and somebody covered him in Strawberry Milkshake
https://twitter.com/JLRFB/status/1123689058218184704
Trying to work on a Yaxley intolerant pun but it's not quite there yet.
Mebbe, but the lack of buyers lining up to take over a firm outside the EU may have something to do with Brexit.
To be fair, purchasing a factory (and staff rota) which produces high value specialist components for a specific customer, and will require significant re-tooling - even assuming the prospective purchaser knows what they will do with it - is not going to be a quick sale in any economic climate.
I can’t see it…
It's clearly more probably than revocation, but still has huge dangers. As I've said before, if a new vote is to be held, it needs first to have clear support in the country. Can you honestly say it has?
Even then there's still a huge uncertainty it resolve anything. Seeing as it will be a confirmatory vote on a deal with no alternative leave option, we can expect an orchestrated boycott campaign from Farage's mob and the tory hardliners. No doubt the remain ultras will celebrate this as it will result in a remain vote but all it will do is start the whole cycle again but with Farage's party strengthened even further.
are now duty-bound to enact it
Do those that voted for "it" think that the "it" being enacted is the "it" that they voted for?
No doubt the remain ultras will celebrate this as it will result in a remain vote but all it will do is start the whole cycle again but with Farage’s party strengthened even further.
I don't care what "ultras" think… I do think the public need a say on what we do next though… rather then their "will" of 2016 being used to force through a Brexit that they didn't have sight of back then, and may not want now.
Also… whatever happens next, even if we give up EU membership, the whole "not real Brexit" and "not what we voted for" narratives are ready for Farage and the Bannon linked Tories to exploit. Leave or Remain that is going to happen. You can see that already.
Why would anyone in labour be pro Brexit?
As a left wing person there are loads of reasons I would not join the EU. However as we are already in it those reasons don't outweigh the impact of leaving. If my priorities were slightly different then I could be pro Brexit.