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Lib Dems enabled the Tory austerity policy
What should they have done? They couldn't have stopped it, but by entering into the coalition they could (and perhaps did) soften it or other areas of policy.
Your assessment appears naive.
Bullshit. Read this thread.
It's still just one policy though isn't despite the many ups and downs. And Ironically it's the one policy which could be described as a classic centrist compromise borne of pragmatism and a Blairite triangulation strategy.
What should they have done?
Ask yourself the exact same question about labour brexit policy. I have a lot of sympathy for the libdems. They made a colossal mistake and are now paying for it. Many have learned lessons from it, including the current labour leadership, which is never betray your core support by going against a core election pledge which is extremely important to them.
including the current labour leadership, which is never betray your core support by going against a core election pledge which is extremely important to them.
enabling a Tory brexit is not the Labour manifesto policy.
The membership voted democratically to go 2nd ref when GE was gone - that has mostly been ignored.
You also need t o look at solid public opinion which is going against brexit.
But at this point what they are completely missing is a competent salesman who can carry people with them, rather than hiding from the demands and groundswell of opinion.
I've seen scores of MP's speak more passionately, with more conviction and with more sincerity than Corbyn on all of this, when there is a hard choice you need to make sure you get people on your side. You do that by being honest and up front with people.
I've heard most of the labour front bench commit to 2nd ref almost trying to make sure Corbyn has to not because he asked them to.
I’ve thought of a great nickname for that bell-end Francois.
Poison Penfold (of the TA).
You know, in policy terms?
No idea. I'd consider myself left of centre, not that it's hugely relevant to this thread.
It’s still just one policy
Check the thread title. I'll discuss other policies elsewhere, if you like, but let's do that bore off (squirrel!) stuff elsewhere please.
You also need t o look at solid public opinion which is going against brexit.
I'm not denying the tides have changed. There is now an undoubted shift towards a 2nd ref and away from the ridiculous tory idea of an easy brexit. And labour policy has shifted with it, which is why they adopted the 2nd ref fallback and are now becoming more vocal about it. It's still a delicate balancing act though. They are however moving in the right direction. Obviously not as fast as many would like, but I think they're calculating that if/when they shift there will be a tipping point and many of their supporters who are now questioning their policy, will come flooding back under the pressure of preventing the likes of Boris Johnson from becoming PM. They will lose votes for sure, but probably not nearly as many as everyone thinks.
And labour policy has shifted with it, which is why they adopted the 2nd ref fallback and are now becoming more vocal about it.
And the point being this is way beyond the time to be getting more vocal....
They are however moving in the right direction. Obviously not as fast as many would like, but I think they’re calculating that if/when they shift there will be a tipping point and many of their supporters who are now questioning their policy, will come flooding back under the pressure of preventing the likes of Boris Johnson from becoming PM. They will lose votes for sure, but probably not nearly as many as everyone thinks.
Lol calculating?? Did you type that seriously? Unless this is such a cunning strategy that nobody can tell what it is then it's not calculated as much as back of a very small fag packet.
molgrips
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Lib Dems enabled the Tory austerity policy
What should they have done? They couldn’t have stopped it, but by entering into the coalition they could (and perhaps did) soften it or other areas of policy.
Your assessment appears naive.
If they had gone supply and confidence they would have held MUCH more power - like the DUP are now and the Greens in Scotland. As it was once Clegg pledged they were it it for the full five years they had zero power at all as the tories knew no matter what they did Clegg would not vote them down. However they did enable that hard right tory governent to survive for five years and enabled lots of ghastly policies.
An utter failure, one that was predictable and well foreseen and one they have been rightly punished for.
An utter failure, one that was predictable and well foreseen and one they have been rightly punished for.
and I bet your loving being so right, apart from it's not the Lib Dems being punished it's the UK at the moment.
Lol calculating?
You've swallowed too much of Binners' sixth form stuff. Disagree with them all you like, but do you doubt that the labour party have spent a lot of the substantial amount of money they have raised on polling, research and advice on how to navigate a way through this conundrum?
You’ve swallowed too much of Binners’ sixth form stuff.
No I've just been paying attention, I've watched debates and read around along with following a lot of this.
Some of that polling data was floated recently and it said that the majority of those voting leave in labour seats didn't actually vote labour at the last election. The numbers also were showing that the leave vote was not as bad for them as was first proclaimed. Meanwhile they are pissing off a huge amount of remain voters.
I'm sure this advice as to how to navigate this will become clear at some point... at the moment it sounds nothing more credible than THM's grown ups claim.
Regardless of the advice and strategy who is out there convincing people that they should follow and trust them? Who is selling this vision, who is standing up and saying back us and we will look after you. So far it's not Corbyn.
And here I was thinking it was simply because you were a reactionary snob.
Please, enough with the compliments.
As a Liberal voter in all of the elections when I've actually lived in the UK, I thought they did an exceptionally poor job as part of the coalition.
I was working in the university sector during this period and witnessed firsthand how the saddling of students with the crippling debt levels that came with the trebling of tuition fees resulted in staggeringly little improvement to learning and teaching.
Instead we saw a zero sum game pissing contest between universities as to who could waste the most money on pointless building projects, senior management pay and ill advised forays into overseas provision. In short, it's been a complete disaster, and there's a massive public funding black hole coming when the highly optimistic repayment forecasts are, inevitably, not met.
Still, at least they're not 19th Century throwbacks or Marxist loons.
JP
Vocal partisans are wrecking politics in the USA and putting a lot of centrist voters off.
I wonder if people with the attitudes of Daz and TJ are doing the same. It's not that people are getting put off by boring centerists, people are getting put of by parties that are pandering to vocal minorities on both the left and right.
The reality is that we are in a potential no deal scenario precisely because the two main parties have eviscerated their centres and chased peripheral voters. The Tories thought they had to hook Ukipers to get an upper hand, labour still think they need to hang on to a national minority of old labour support. Meanwhile, what we really needed was a sensible centerist coalition to keep the crazies and brexiteers at bay.
I wonder if people with the attitudes of Daz and TJ are doing the same.
A vocal partisan? Nothing I have said is even half as extreme as the bile spewed forth from your own keyboard. The people wrecking politics are those misrepresenting others and lying about simple facts which we used to take for granted.
Rayban - quite the opposite IMO
Under Blair the more he pushed the party to the right the fewer votes he got and the party in Scotland collapsed completely. 40+ Scots MPs to 1!
along with that was a collapse in membership and activists leaving them very short of people on the ground todo the donkey work. Much of this has reversed. Moving to the centre is always only a short term fix.
Yes when you have a membership more radical than the average voter you do have an issue. However the idea that Corbyn is leading a hard left party with hard left policies is simple nonsense - again - not once have any of you beenable to point to a single labour policy that is not mainstream social democratic. The SNP and the Greens in Scotland are far more radical than English labour - and have between them had a majority for 10 years now.
Hah! I might be a die hard remoaner Daz, but at least I don't believe that the Labour party isn't anti-semitic, that centerist neoliberals (who have done more for the developing world by ending protectionism than the far left ever has) are the height of evil and that it's remainers who are horrible divisive malcontents (despite never having killed an MP) who hate the noble working classes.
Nor am I using Tory as an insult for New Labour and Lib Dem supporters like TJ.
Both of you are part of the problem in the UK. At least TJ is trying to argue his point though, even if he has yet to convert me.
Back on some sort of topic...
European Council president Donald Tusk has suggested offering the UK a "flexible" extension to Brexit of up to a year, with the option of leaving earlier if a deal is ratified.
He said there was "little reason to believe" a Brexit deal would be approved by the extension deadline UK PM Theresa May has requested - 30 June.
Writing to EU leaders, he said any delay should have conditions attached.
EU states will vote on the extension proposals at a summit on Wednesday.
A draft EU document circulated to diplomats ahead of the emergency summit also proposes an extension but leaves the date of the proposed new deadline blank.
The BBC's Brussels correspondent Adam Fleming said the document referred to an extension lasting "only as long as is necessary and, in any event, no longer than XX.XX.XXXX and ending earlier if the withdrawal agreement is ratified".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47874367
Looks like 1 year, nobody has any faith we have a way out of this so EU elections to be fought, there was also a leak/suggestion that neither Labour or Tories can afford an election at the moment, especially with big backers apparently with the independents that could make things very interesting.
May has lost her grass roots, Labours are not all in line, could make things way more open than some people think.
ERG members really going for it today, thumping their chests and threatening to wreck the EU from the inside, while claiming 80% of voters voted to not have any kind of relationship with the EU. These bastards are trying to wreck everything for all of us, and they claim they are doing it for us, at our insistence. If this long delay does happen, it's time for clear messaging… and that means voting for parties that have a clear message.
it’s time for clear messaging… and that means voting for parties that have a clear message.
yep **** your political allegiances at this point, in the local and EU elections do not vote for any pro brexit candidate, but at this point we need a big turnout in these elections.
It's a good sign if the ERG nutters are having an existential crises.criceese? What's the plural for that?
The more they talk the more stupid they look.
despite never having killed an MP
And you you call me a vocal partisan and extremist?
When do the EU tax avoidance laws get tightened again? some time soon I'm sure.
I'm not supprised the anuses of the ERG and others are tightening.
The one ray of light I've seen this week has been the number of leavers, on any Facebook post talking about the EP elections, angrily proclaiming that they will never vote AGAIN!!!!! Which I'm all for.
Which I’m all for.
I am not sure it is a particularly good thing having people feeling completely disenfranchised from the political system.
yep **** your political allegiances at this point, in the local and EU elections do not vote for any pro brexit candidate, but at this point we need a big turnout in these elections
Yup.
Precisely Mike.
This all goes back to Gordon Brown making a grovelling apology for bigotgate.
Both parties have normalised and made the views of people like that old lady acceptable by pandering to their lunatic fringes.
Macron has the right idea, rubber bullets and tear gas for the dissenters - **** the extremes at all cost.
Yep and thank god for Corbyn making a break from Labour pandering to people like that ladies views. I remember Tom Watson and Yvette Cooper saying mealy mouthed words about immigration "something has to be done" etc in the Ed Milliabnd election campaign and now here we are.
Still most of the blame is with the RW press' lies and the Tories with their dishonest "immigration in the 10s of thousands" pledge. Anna Soubry no doubt used that pledge to help get her elected in her leave voting seat FFS.
I am not sure it is a particularly good thing having people feeling completely disenfranchised from the political system.
Yeah, fair one - long-term I agree, short-term I'm happy to use their disenfranchisement to put a brake on this runaway circus and let's all revisit it with calmer heads.
Macron has the right idea, rubber bullets and tear gas for the dissenters – **** the extremes at all cost.
No he does not, it's a french tactic and what is expected but it's the worst possible way to deal with people - stop being the angry little man hating everybody and work out what the problems are and ffs to quote Thatcher don't bring problems bring solutions.
At no point do I want to see tear gas, rubber bullets and riot police on the streets, it means we have failed.
There are many self interests at work trying to tear apart what we are at the moment, they all have motives and all want division and violence to prove their point. We need to rise above that.
Anna Soubry no doubt used that pledge to help get her elected in her leave voting seat FFS.
Even when a Tory minister, Soubry openly said the migration targets were wrong. As a back bencher before she was last re-elected she praised and supported FoM, and spoke against the migration targets.
Now, having either given up on or been pushed out of that party, she is still fighting to keep FoM… whereas Corbyn and those loyal to him say FoM must end.
Who's fighting for your workers rights? And I mean your rights to work all over the continent.
I thought this interesting:
This was a gathering organised by the Tory think tank Onward - which presented research concluding that age is the new dividing line in British politics and the Conservatives are appealing to fewer and fewer younger people.
Onward's report said 83% of Conservative voters are now over the age of 45 and just 4% are under the age of 24 years old.
"The 'tipping point age' - the median age at which a voter is more likely to be Conservative than Labour - is now 51 years old, up from 47 at the 2017 general election.
"Before the 2017 campaign, the tipping point was 34 years old," it adds.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47872637
Insult everyone then telling them they’re wrong is a renowned tactic for winning landslide victories
I see. Is that why you've spent so much time insulting Corbyn and anyone who doesn't think he's the antichrist?
can't be bothered
Nor am I using Tory as an insult for New Labour and Lib Dem supporters like TJ.
Outright lie. I have never said that,
Can't be bothered to defend Corbyn insisting that FoM must end? Because any "soft Brexit" still hinges on that.
ERG members really going for it today, thumping their chests and threatening to wreck the EU from the inside,
It's almost like we have some sort of influence within the EU rather than them telling us what to do, isn't it.
As a back bencher before she was last re-elected she praised and supported FoM, and spoke against the migration targets
Of all the shitty and nasty thing she has voted for and supported, and opened her mouth at - it's dismaying how you are hand picking anything that will support your argument.
She's a through and through neo-lib free marketeer that would walk across the poor to get to a microphone.
Who’s fighting for your workers rights? And I mean your rights to work all over the continent.
Not really the same workers rights are they. I am a lot more concerned about workers rights for those working in the UK than the right of someone to work in another country.
People will still be able to work in other countries, they will just need suitable job, paperwork etc,. and the numbers of those who would fail to be able to work in other countries is insignificant when compared to any degradation of workers rights in the UK.
Kelvin - thats right because the claim is complete nonsense from the Corbyn haters. the position has evloved and changed.
Not really the same workers rights are they.
Just because you (or indeed most people) have not had to, or chosen to, make use of your rights, does not mean they are not important… as I hope you never have to find out first hand. Auf wiedersehen, pet.
the claim is complete nonsense from the Corbyn haters
"Complete nonsense" is it? Right… so FoM is back on the mythical "table" now is it? Not heard a squeak about that myself… please point me at something to that effect, because it would be a very positive move, in my opinion.
Still hasn't happened yet, I'm beginning to think May is perfect for the job, anyone competent would have sent someone capable to negotiate or done the negotiating themselves and it would all be been done and dusted by now. The longer this all rattles on the softer it's getting and - it still hasn't happened yet.
The main thing I have to fear is my own president or one of the other 27 losing patience.
Still most of the blame is with the RW press’ lies and the Tories with their dishonest “immigration in the 10s of thousands” pledge. Anna Soubry no doubt used that pledge to help get her elected in her leave voting seat FFS.
My emphasis, btw.
That’s the problem we have, right there.
You’ve alleged something plausible to support your case. But you haven’t even bothered to find out if it’s true. At least you admit to that, but you still use something you’ve simply made up to support your case.
People then go on to assume it’s true. Please. Stop it!
Hang on in the last 2 elections she got elected with manifesto pledges of "get immigration in the 10s of thousands" &"respect the brexit vote" its because she knows its wrong that its bad! I have no doubt people voted for her/the conservatives in her constituency because of these pledges.
@ctk up until a few months back we all knew manifesto pledges were fantastic works of fiction and a vague direction to follow. As voters we get to pick the one that most closely aligns with our thoughts.
If we do split the major parties it might help people pick a bit better.