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Couldn't agree more P-jay.
Our labour MP is a staunch remainer, in a constituency that voted about the same as the national result with a slight majority to leave. Since then he's been vocally campaiging for a second referendum. He gets loads of 'Enemy of the People' style abuse for doing so.
He was elected at the last election through a big swing to dislodge our previously rabid brexiteer, hang-em-and-flog-em, racist, homophobic Tory
He's a thoroughly decent bloke who has already done loads for our constituancy, so on that basis I'd still vote for him despite my feelings towards the useless labour leadership
And in so doing you condone the party's policies. '80% of voters voted for parties who pledged to respect the result of the referendum'
Thats the dilemma though, isn't it? I live in a marginal consituancy that swings between labour and Tory. What am I supposed to do? I just want the Tories out as I loath them with every fibre of my being. And in a FPTP electoral system I have only one way of contributing to that. To think local, hold my nose and vote labour
No, it’s not obvious. It’s as if the GFA never happened, isn’t it – people still don’t get this stuff. If you’re from NI, you can be British, Irish, or both.
Yes, agreed, but the original post was about "NI citizens", not people born there or residents. You can be an Irish citizen in NI, but if you're an NI citizen, surely that means a citizen of UK of NI & GB. The context of the post was about what NI citizens would do if Ireland became united, and Irish citizens wouldn't have a problem with that.
P-Jay +1
The Guardian are reporting that the noises coming out of Brussels suggest they’ve reached their limit with all this nonsense (I’m surprised it took this long) and some countries will be refusing any requests of an extension to Article 50
They said that last time, and I still don't buy it...what's in it for any country that decides to vote against an extentsion? what would they gain?
…but if you’re an NI citizen, surely that means a citizen of UK of NI & GB.
Absolutely not. Read the GFA. You can be a citizen of NI and absolutely refuse to be a UK citizen. One of the things the GFA enabled that will be destroyed when we Leave the EU… as the UK gov will either have to force UK citizenship on people who are Irish in NI, or give them a lesser status (along with other EU citizens) than UK citizens. The right to be Irish in NI, without being discriminated against, is KEY to the GFA.
Thats the dilemma though, isn’t it? I live in a marginal consituancy that swings between labour and Tory. What am I supposed to do? I just want the Tories out as I loath them with every fibre of my being. And in a FPTP electoral system I have only one way of contributing to that. To think local, hold my nose and vote labour
I've made a stand that I will try to vote for the person who best represents what's best for the UK and the majority at a local level, the last few years have shown me that it's better to have an MP on your side from the 'wrong' party than one that's not from the 'right' one. Party Whips have never been so powerless, Leaders never been so in fear of their MPs.
If I was presented a choice between a Leave Tory and a Leave Labour candidate, I'd vote elsewhere, they may not stand a chance of winning, but the data collected post election could be enough to swing policy,
I wonder how many Remainers voted for Graham Stringer, Kelvin Hopkins or Roger Godsiff, just because they'd always voted Labour, or because Corbyn made some vague promises about Brexit in the lead up to the last GE.
I agree Binners but unless your voice is heard Labour will continue to plough their furrow. Only by moving your vote to a minority party can you influence the majors. That's the way UKIP were so successful.
P-jay
something
I agree entirely, but what to do? It appears no party is united in any way.
With our local elections there is no clear party to vote for. Sure, a few have promised to fix some local issues that the current party have created, but then i'd be condoning the party as a whole on a national level.
It's a mess! Completely disillusioned with the whole thing.
They said that last time, and I still don’t buy it…what’s in it for any country that decides to vote against an extentsion? what would they gain?
Closure and certainty. The EU can move forward and not have to give much thoguht to the UK anymore.
any country that voted against an extension would lose massive political influence with the vast majority that actually want us to stay...for no benefit
Plus no-deal also hurts the EU and its members, albeit less than it hurts us.
any country that voted against an extension would lose massive political influence with the vast majority that actually want us to stay…for no benefit
Do they?
and remember if the UK no deals does that mean it never intends to deal with the EU? Do think the key points of the withdrawal agreement are actually going anywhere?
The UK can walk, but the day they want a deal the UK will be presented with the relevant parts of the withdrawal agreement to sign.
I agree entirely, but what to do? It appears no party is united in any way.
With our local elections there is no clear party to vote for. Sure, a few have promised to fix some local issues that the current party have created, but then i’d be condoning the party as a whole on a national level.
It’s a mess! Completely disillusioned with the whole thing.
I'd argue all but the 2 big ones are fairly united, but do you want a single way of thinking within a party, especially with the FPTP system? I've been guilty of calling the last weeks a real mess, and in certain respects they have been, but really I think they've actually been the way Westminster should work. MPs are doing what they think is best for the UK with a ear to their constituents rather than *just* making childish noises at the other bench at PMQ . My MP represents one of the largest remain majorities in the UK, she has consistently voted in a way they represents us, often at odds with Labour HQ and usually at odds with the Government, isn't that how it should work?
It's not perfect, no system is, but I will vote for how I think is best for the job, and I'll be one of those weird types who e-mails their representative a non-ranty, constructive few lines if/when the need ever arrives. Even if I didn't vote for them.
I’d argue all but the 2 big ones are fairly united
The LibDems are ripping themselves apart over recent Brexit related parliamentary votes… you just haven't heard about it because they are such a peripheral interest right now.
Only by moving your vote to a minority party can you influence the majors. That’s the way UKIP were so successful.
Bit of a lonooong term strategy. I'd say that the party in government has rather more influence over what actually gets done. It was to appease the nutters in the Tory party that there was a referendum. Not the nutter outside.
I’d argue all but the 2 big ones are fairly united, but do you want a single way of thinking within a party, especially with the FPTP system? I’ve been guilty of calling the last weeks a real mess, and in certain respects they have been, but really I think they’ve actually been the way Westminster should work. MPs are doing what they think is best for the UK with a ear to their constituents rather than *just* making childish noises at the other bench at PMQ . My MP represents one of the largest remain majorities in the UK, she has consistently voted in a way they represents us, often at odds with Labour HQ and usually at odds with the Government, isn’t that how it should work?
It’s not perfect, no system is, but I will vote for how I think is best for the job, and I’ll be one of those weird types who e-mails their representative a non-ranty, constructive few lines if/when the need ever arrives. Even if I didn’t vote for them.
Problem is that's not how it's happening. There's numerous MPs that aren't voting in the interest of their constituents, several of my local MPS included. There's also arguments of the parties fundamentals that Brexit has highlighted, which really shouldn't be coming into question. Personally I've never felt more removed from my MP and Westminster.
Not the nutter outside.
It was the threat of MPs leaving the party to join UKIP, and because UKIP were taking votes (and members) from the Conservative party in marginal seats, that really shifted things. It was support for UKIP that transformed the Conservative party, arguing otherwise is… er…
Problem is that’s not how it’s happening. There’s numerous MPs that aren’t voting in the interest of their constituents, several of my local MPS included. There’s also arguments of the parties fundamentals that Brexit has highlighted, which really shouldn’t be coming into question. Personally I’ve never felt more removed from my MP and Westminster.
So don't vote for them again, if enough of your neighbours's thought that way they'll lose and another candidate will be selected. If you're 'usual party' isn't fielding good candidates, vote for another one.
Politics should flow upwards, MPs should be listening to their constituents, parties to their MPs and Leaders so their Party - not the other way around.
So don’t vote for them again, if enough of your neighbours’s thought that way they’ll lose and another candidate will be selected. If you’re ‘usual party’ isn’t fielding good candidates, vote for another one.
Politics should flow upwards, MPs should be listening to their constituents, parties to their MPs and Leaders so their Party – not the other way around.
Completely agree, but there's no other credible parties that could win here.
I suspect Plaid will do relatively well in the next GE in Wales.
I wish the BbC would spend more time interviewing the moderate normal MPs instead of giving Airtime to the nutters.
The reason why successful governments in the UK are often moderate is because that’s where most of the population are.
Are they, or do they just think they are and are sold that Labour polices are now Marxist. If most people are presented with Labour polices (without being told if they are Labour, Tory, Left, Right) they typically say that it sounds like a good idea.
That is because they are not 'far left' as the media would have people believe and Corbyn is not going to be taking everyone's house and wealth back to the state for redistribution.
See, why do you go all left/right…?!?
Plenty on both left and right that want Brexit. Plenty of people who consider that is an extreme action that will effect their lives negatively.
Does Brexit sounds like a "good idea"?
I wish the BbC would spend more time interviewing the moderate normal MPs instead of giving Airtime to the nutters.
A-frickin'-men. I appreciate they're hamstrung in their pursuit of balance, but jesus, don't forget there's far more people in the middle than there are at the edges (not, I should state, proof of a flat earth, flat earthers).
Loads of irrelevant shite being spouted in the HoL at the moment in an attempt to talk out the Cooper bill. Others saying they have brought camp beds and don't care how long the sitting lasts. They clearly need Bercow there turfing out the crap before it comes before the house.
The reason why successful governments in the UK are often moderate is because that’s where most of the population are.
Define "successful"!
Define "moderate"!
And is that really where most of the poulation are?
The NHS and the Welfare state sound like Marxist populist madness to me .....
Absolutely not. Read the GFA. You can be a citizen of NI and absolutely refuse to be a UK citizen. One of the things the GFA enabled that will be destroyed when we Leave the EU… as the UK gov will either have to force UK citizenship on people who are Irish in NI, or give them a lesser status (along with other EU citizens) than UK citizens.
Thanks, apologies. Didn't know all that - although I think the GFA uses the term 'people of NI' 'not citizens of NI' and it was the word 'citizen' the originally confused me, but I'm not going to be pedantic. So the Brexit mess is even worse that I thought.
Marxist populist madness to me …..
Yeah, right-o
The NHS and the Welfare state sound like Marxist populist madness to me …..
What would your ideal be?
Thats the dilemma though, isn’t it? I live in a marginal consituancy that swings between labour and Tory. What am I supposed to do? I just want the Tories out as I loath them with every fibre of my being. And in a FPTP electoral system I have only one way of contributing to that. To think local, hold my nose and vote labour
The fact that "magic granddad" Binners of all people is saying this should tell us all we need to know.
I live in a similar constituency and at the last GE did exactly this. The difference between Labour and Conservative is literally a handful of votes and outstrip the also-rans a hundred-fold. I could vote against the Tories by voting Labour, or I needn't have bothered turning up.
And sure, it'll get spun as "80% etc etc" but there's two things to consider here. 1) The notion that the two major parties command the bulk of the votes is hardly news, most people vote the way they've always voted (someone mentioned inertia earlier), and 2) whatever we do it's going to get spun because that's what these shitehawks do for a living. Of all the brexit lies it's probably one I'm going to lose the least sleep over compared to the alternative.
In any case, my local incumbent Labour MP (Graham Jones) seems like a decent guy from what I can tell. Does a lot of work for the local community and whenever I've looked at his voting record I've never had cause to reach for the pitchforks.
You're lucky Cougar, I've got Chris Grayling as my MP.
Akira, me too.
I’ve got Geoffrey cox. He has a >20,000 majority...
You’re lucky Cougar, I’ve got Chris Grayling as my MP.
Oh jeez, my sympathies. Is moving an option?
I appreciate they’re hamstrung in their pursuit of balance, but jesus, don’t forget there’s far more people in the middle than there are at the edges (not, I should state, proof of a flat earth, flat earthers).
Most of the media realised a long time ago that being moderate and in-the-middle didn't get viewers, clicks and engagement. The utopian ideal of truth took a back seat to entertainment, ideally of the shouty extreme nature because it's what gets people watching.
No-one listens to the common sense routine, everyone wants the extreme funny / extravagant / ridiculous either so they can shout "yeah, you tell 'im!" or "**** you, ****!" at the TV.
The BBC can't compete with that - there's an argument to say that it shouldn't even be trying to but then it would be immaterial what it showed or how it covered a story because no-one would be watching, they'd all be over on the tabloid pages which cover it in broad strokes while having some tits and gossip on display to hold the attention.
Couple that with the known rigging of the referendum, the targeted social media adverts and the various biases of the various news organisations and while getting information is easier than at any previous point in human history, getting the truth (rather ironically) is harder than ever.
The NHS and the Welfare state sound like Marxist populist madness to me …..
What would your ideal be?
Marxist populist madness to me …..
Yeah, right-o
🙄
Most of the media realised a long time ago that being moderate and in-the-middle didn’t get viewers, clicks and engagement.
You Won't Believe What Happened Next!
Our business today lost over £120k we expected for this next financial year.
Our partners in two EU countries for two different Erasmus+ projects were advised to remove the UK partners by thier national agency's in light of the uncertainty over Brexshit.
Nope you're imagining it, all that stuff is definitely project fear, our betters told us it, so it must be true.
*in all seriousness, that's shit, and the kind of event that will be repeating itself all over the country, what a bag of **** Brexit is.
The BBC takes it's 'balance' from the press. Farage's genius was to tap in to the press coverage, thereby get himself on mainstream TV at every opportunity.
Plus no-deal also hurts the EU and its members, albeit less than it hurts us.
47% drop in house prices might hurt!
