by allowing this shit show to go on this long,
The disaster capitalists have already made thier money, it's mission accomplished.
They could make more yet, but they are clean on profit.
We could always revoke and then redo Article 50 giving us another 2 years to play with.
Getting anyone in EU to return our calls after maybe a bit trickier.
How will parliament stop it? Given that they can’t even back an indicative vote suggesting that they should have the power to do so?
Vote of no confidence needs 320 votes to pass (with SF not taking their seats). Tories currently have 313 (312 now Bowles has gone) and the DUP 10, which makes 322. So, perhaps it's not beyond reach with a couple of defections from people like Ken Clarke.
However, given the outcome of a passed no confidence motion would be to delay (and possibly even revoke) brexit, it's quite likely that Hoey et al. could vote to save the government. Hoey's seat voted by a large majority to remain. I doubt they'll want her back, which could be impetus enough given the levels of self interest around at present.
Speaking as someone of limited political understanding nor will to try, I’m exsaperated at this shambles. Our self serving bunch of arseholes that call themselves our Government cannot after years of debates, countless times of asking come to a conclusion cannot put themselves to one side and work for the good of the country. Its not leadership, its selfishness.
If there were a GE I wouldn’t vote in protest. As much as it’d make no difference or perhaps would not by its own action help my own cause, who in thier right mind would make any effort to provide this bunch of selfish idiots a means to “lead” our country.
I can’t be the only one that has no faith in the government of politians per se after this debacle.
And the proper way of testing it democratically, is to have an election. Now remind me which party has been saying that for months?
except that it isn't - having a GE is too devisive as there are lots of people that just won't vote for a certain party no matter what their brexit stance.
Plus the number of people that will not ever vote for corbyn has again increased now as they don't trust him has just been boosted by his last-minute switch in policy, going completely against his last manifesto (and mandate as he would say).
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We could always revoke and then redo Article 50 giving us another 2 years to play with.
This is the one thing we can't do. It's in the legal advice on revoke.
@dazh a ge does not work for a single issue we tried that before. There is no appetite for a labour brexit which is what the leadership want.
@kelvin you have made up uour mind as to what outcome each future event will be, it's a bold claim with so many variables in play.
If there were a GE I wouldn’t vote in protest. As much as it’d make no difference or perhaps would not by its own action help my own cause, who in thier right mind would make any effort to provide this bunch of selfish idiots a means to “lead” our country.
Sounds like the reasons we are in this mess to start with. With such hight levels of dissatisfaction with the main 2 parties this could be a ge where more change is possible. To give up and flounce is the worst possible thing you could do. If you must protest with a vote use it to support somebody who might fight to change something.
it would have been so much better if politicians and everyone had accepted the ref result and gone straight in to planning for a 'no-deal', and then negotiated upwards from that situation to an improved situation.
And a50 should not have been triggered until a solution for the border had been found.
When the whole world is laughing at our parliament you really have to stand out to be the most ridiculous bell-end in town....
.....but Pendfold steps up
https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1112832941502205953?s=19
it would have been so much better if politicians and everyone had accepted the ref result and gone straight in to planning for a ‘no-deal’
But no deal wasn’t what was promised with Brexit, it’s was a super deal, money for the NHS and lots of other mega trade deals with the rest of the world.
But no deal wasn’t what was promised with Brexit, it’s was a super deal, money for the NHS and lots of other mega trade deals with the rest of the world.
and what point are you making - that's got nothing to do with an EU deal, has it?
if the 'no-deal' baseline had been set in the first place then negotiating trade deals to be better than that baseline could have then happened, instead of wasting all this time countering remoaning losers like yourself...
Ah, the old lie, that it all would've been fine if we'd all just gotten behind it.
How would that have made a difference to the outcome?
instead of wasting all this time countering remoaning losers like yourself…
🙂 I’m typing this from my holiday apartment in the Alps which has shot up in Sterling value since the vote.
So if we'd all just started with lower expectations we wouldn't be so disappointed
Okay got it now.
and what point are you making – that’s got nothing to do with an EU deal, has it?
Exactly, but that is what won the vote
if the ‘no-deal’ baseline had been set in the first place then negotiating trade deals to be better than that baseline could have then happened
Apart from it doesn't work like that, at all.
So basically, start as low as possible and then a trade deal with the Faroe Islands would have been the best thing ever!
I like your logic Turnerguy. 😂😂
Really Cougar?? Have a word with yourself.
Care to elaborate on what you mean?
Maybe we should just invoke no deal,it didn’t get a majority in parliament but so what?
The difference is that parliament is sovereign, not the electorate.
if the ‘no-deal’ baseline had been set in the first place then negotiating trade deals to be better than that baseline could have then happened, instead of wasting all this time countering remoaning losers like yourself…
Far as I can tell, there has been no countering of anything outside of the Internet and even that has been "we won you lost shut up and get on with it two world wars and one world cup doo dah project fear something sovereignty something why do you hate democracy?" and that doesn't take a great deal of time. If there's one thing the leave contingent has been really, really good at over the last couple of years it's not countering anything but rather ignoring it instead.
You broke it, you fix it, don't you %^&*ing dare try and pin this cluster**** on us now. It's not like you weren't warned.
if the ‘no-deal’ baseline had been set in the first place
Plus, y'know, it was.
2016: "if we crash out, we're proper*ed" - "project fear!"
2019: "if we crash out, we're proper*ed" - "wow, if only someone had said this three years ago!"
I still can't see why the option with the most votes doesn't win.
May didn't get a majority but she won the election.
a ge does not work for a single issue we tried that before. There is no appetite for a labour brexit which is what the leadership want.
But it shouldn’t be a single issue election. Brexit is the symptom of a much deeper problem, and there’s only one party which seems to understand that.
i’m not sure there’s much evidence that people don’t want a ‘labour brexit’. Clearly there is some appetite because the remain at all costs parties are not exactly setting the world alight are they? The only way to test it though is via an election.
But it shouldn’t be a single issue election. Brexit is the symptom of a much deeper problem, and there’s only one party which seems to understand that.
It is but it is a single issue that needs resolving right now. A GE and we go for another 2 years to work out we still can't agree.
i’m not sure there’s much evidence that people don’t want a ‘labour brexit’. Clearly there is some appetite because the remain at all costs parties are not exactly setting the world alight are they?
Yep, the old one of 80% voted for this.... anecdotally I think you have seen enough people who did not support brexit but voted for one of the parties to try and get something out of this. As I've said before probably more didn't vote Lib Dem because of tuition fees not anything to do with brexit.
37% of the electorate voted for Bexit
36% voted for remain
The Majority of MP's did not want brexit
We have a deal to vote on, it was the product of 2 years insulting out neighbours.
Kryton57:
If there were a GE I wouldn’t vote in protest. As much as it’d make no difference or perhaps would not by its own action help my own cause, who in thier right mind would make any effort to provide this bunch of selfish idiots a means to “lead” our country.
If there is a GE, and you really can not find *any* of the candidates you could support (even one with no hope of winning) then please go along anyway and spoil your vote.
A vote for a minority candidate may avoid them losing their deposit, or encourage them to keep campaigning for whatever issue they (and maybe you) care deeply about, even if not elected.
A vote for a minority candidate helps build support for electoral reform - yes it’s unlikely we’ll ever ditch FPTP, but the smaller share the reds & blues get the more chance of change.
A spoiled vote still counts for turnout, and helps the whole system give a better reflection of the public will: imagine what millions of spoiled ballots would do to ‘legitimacy’ of the result. ‘None of the above, since you’re all ****!’ from millions of people?
Please do vote in some way, every tine you can. For those you support, for no-one at all if you must. But please do vote.
Most people didn't vote lib dem because in most constituencies its a wasted vote
It is but it is a single issue that needs resolving right now
If the last 3 years have proven anything, it’s that this issue is so complex and difficult that an immediate solution is impossible. It’s going to take a lot longer to resolve, an entire parliament at least I would suggest. The starting point can only be an election because we have no ther mechanism available.
The starting point can only be an election because we have no ther mechanism available.
Bull Shit!! We have other mechanisms, one is staring you in the face, it got the most votes last night, it was offered several times as a way out to May, can you remember what that is? Unless of course you reject the idea that people can change their minds.
Mays deal is the best available and far better than I thought possible given Mays red lines
IMO the best and obvious solution is a referendum on Mays deal v remain. Everyone knows no deal is an utter disaster in the making ( apart from the terminally deluded) The only reason this is being blocked is the fundamentalist brexshitters know they would lose a second referendum and a few labour folk are scared of racists in their constituencies or are terminally deluded like Hoey
Don’t forget that the bnp won a seat by less than 20 votes. Every vote matters .
.
you think she wants to also be blamed for singlehandedly crashing the economy?
Shits 'n' giggles?
Most people didn’t vote lib dem because in most constituencies its a wasted vote
Just imagine 48% voting LibDem.
The difference is that parliament is sovereign, not the electorate.
But, but DEMOCRACY, WILL OF THE PEOPLE. Or something.
The disaster capitalists have already made thier money, it’s mission accomplished.
Yes they would probably be OK with letting this one go and look forward to the next way of destabilizing the economy.
I'm with the on his last two posts.
There is no appetite for a labour brexit which is what the leadership want.
but what is a labour brexit - they keep changing their tune - their stance now is not what was in their manifesto. corbyn has a serious issue with voter trust and it has just got worse with his recent switch.
If there is a GE it is not going to stop a hard bexit
Bull Shit!! We have other mechanisms, one is staring you in the face, it got the most votes last night, it was offered several times as a way out to May, can you remember what that is?
As Ken Clark says it's alright adding a PV without the direction attached to it. You do well. The minute you have a PV coupled with the options it becomes less clear. Red herring.
@sockpuppet - fair point and understood, thanks. Last time around I voted for the Green Party as they promised most of what I wanted locally.
Upon reflection if there is a GE, I shall review the options again and not abstain.
Ah, the old lie, that it all would’ve been fine if we’d all just gotten behind it.How would that have made a difference to the outcome?
how do you know it is a lie - how do you know it wouldn't have made a difference ?
If we had started assuming worst case no-deal we would then know the areas of most pain to try and negotiate up from, and so would everyone else. We would also have had time to do it.
If we had started assuming worst case no-deal we would then know the areas of most pain to try and negotiate up from
The important word there is TRY.
I still do not understand how a second referendum is undemocratic. Surely it is the very essence of democracy.
The country voted for Brexit without understanding what that would look like. Now we know what the deal looks like, ask us again.
More importantly, is Mark Francois actual dwarf?
But why would we start by assuming the worst position, when we already knew that we'd have £350m per week for the NHS and the rest of the world was crying out to give us better trade deals than the EU had?
Surely no-one could be suggesting that these things weren't true...?
you have made up uour mind as to what outcome each future event will be, it’s a bold claim with so many variables in play.
I have not. I just want to know how a confidence vote suddenly creates the support and means to stop no deal. So far it just looks like wishful thinking that Parliament can use a confidence vote to stop no deal… which is why I would be happier either for parliament to set out now to obtain the means to force government to revoke if it comes to the final hour (the amendment that Labour whipped to abtstain on) or for someone to lay out how no deal can be stopped, without reference to May doing the "right thing".
More importantly, is Mark Francois actual dwarf?
Every time he pops un on telly to say something unbelievably stupid I can only think of....
Nice attempt to blame remoaners for this farce @Turnerguy
But starting from no deal as a base is bonkers
& Economic naivety of it aside, bit hard when the brexiteers had been saying
'the day after the vote we'd hold all the cards'
'we don't need to plan for no deal because we're going to get a great deal'
'absolutely no one is talking about jeopardising our place in the single market's
'if I were negotiating Brexit my first stop wouldn't be Brussels, it would be Berlin where German CEOs would be knocking on Merkel's door demanding a deal'
The revisionism of brexiters pretending that no deal was their plan all along or that negotiating a deal was forced on them by remoaners🙄, is just cowardice: refusing to accept responsibility for the mess the brexiters have created.
We're crashing out without a deal next Friday. No question. For anything else to happen would demand a degree of competence in our politicians and for them to put the interests of themselves and their parties behind those of the country
Anyone reckon thats going to happen?
Today May has called a 5 hour cabinet meeting. The first 3 hours are a 'political' cabinet, which means that there are no civil servants present and they discuss purely political, Tory party matters.In last weeks meeting they discussed plans for a general election.
When they've done that a mere 2 hours will be dedicated to the total and utter shambles we're in.
That, more than anything, sums up where our politicians priorities are
Bull Shit!! We have other mechanisms
Calm down man! An election is the only mechanism which will be tolerated and recognised by parliament and the electorate. The reason parliament can't come to a decision is because the numbers don't work. The only way to change that is to have an election to change the parliamentary arithmetic. If May hadn't thrown away her majority and ransomed herself to the DUP we'd now be debating the finer points of trade negotiations.
An election is the only mechanism which will be tolerated and recognised by parliament and the electorate.
What an odd thing to claim.
If you mean that May would rather call an election than risk putting her approach as regards Brexit to the people directly, then I'm sure you're correct. The same is also true for Corbyn as well. But many others in parliament know why that is, don't agree, and are in favour of a referendum. As for the electorate… we know that a general election does not take the decision on Brexit away from May&Corbyn, so changes little. Now, if Watson is listened to, and Labour policy is changed to supporting a referendum on whatever a Labour government cooks up as regards brexit, then a general election becomes interesting.