I think those of us who voted to remain and would happily see article 50 revoked may well be living in an echo chamber where we are convincing ourselves that millions have changed their minds despite the evidence.
Only one way to find out....
I hate to tell you this but the revoke article 50 petition is still below 6 million and only moving very slowly.
Yes, but it’s an online petition that will not affect any actual policy. And has had a few days to gather signatures.
That’s a long way from a well publicised campaign for an actual vote.
I take the rate of participation as a sign, to say nothing if the fact that it outdid the leave equivalent by ten to one.
So whilst the country burns, Corbyn is busy tweeting about how the SNP once helped Fatchaaa in 1979.
I think those of us who voted to remain and would happily see article 50 revoked may well be living in an echo chamber where we are convincing ourselves that millions have changed their minds despite the evidence.
The polls are pretty reasonable evidence IMO. Of course, polls can be wrong, but it's hard to interpret the polling results as indicating anything other than at least some shift in public opinion. And it wouldn't take much.
Let's not forget leavers dying off.
Let’s not forget leavers dying off.
This is true - we've already passed the notional date by which Remain would supposedly win a re-run, even if no-one changed their vote. Every month that passes shifts the balance further as gammons become incapable of voting either through illness or the sweet embrace of death.
So whilst the country burns, Corbyn is busy tweeting about how the SNP once helped Fatchaaa in 1979.
I’m actually enraged by the video he posted.
I was there to witness the demolition of the Ravenscraig and coppers beating steelworkers with truncheons.
I don’t recall anyone mentioning at the time that it was the SNP to blame.
I also don’t recall the incumbent Labour MP at the time ever making any sort of appearance to do anything about it.
It’s a shameful bit of propaganda which serves absolutely no positive purpose at a time when Corbyn should be doing his actual job of opposing the most incompetent government in history.
Shock post by the Panther that isn’t comic genius! Sh1t just got real!
Percy, please, resume normal service!
Just looked at the voting records. There are some MPs, edit, just tories, that voted against everything. WTF do they want?
They want whatever they are told to want. Some MPs are just there to echo the government or their political/business masters.
WTF do they want?
I would guess they may be opposed to the idea of indicative votes.
me too perchypanther. snp was pretty much a non entity in those days, in Motherwell anyway. Was a solid labour seat.
now, the electorate vote SNP and get tory/labour coalition. WTF.
at least some shift in public opinion. And it wouldn’t take much.
Only we want a super majority, just like we should have required first time around. The mess we're in is the result of a near 50/50 split. This genuinely would have been easy if it had been 80/20 leave because, frankly, hard brevit would keep a depressing number of the 80 happy.
tomhoward
Subscriber
Just looked at the voting records. There are some MPs
If you're where I think you are Tom one of them is ours. Odd as he's personable and reasonable on both occasions I've met him but seems to leave his spine at the gate when he goes to Westminster.
As to what they want, the only thing I can guess is they actually want May's deal and all the no was then dummy spitting at not having defeated the motion for the IV
Mike – what do you think will happen on Monday?
This. As someone said, "nothing has changed". No deal is still the default barring MPs choosing another option and getting May to accept it. Chances of that ... ???
…voted against everything. WTF do they want?
a) to rule out anything that isn't proposed by their government
or
b) to watch it all burn
Our delightful local friendly Tory voted no deal and against everything else apart from that vague 2 year Fysh thing. Presume that was basically the party line.
Shock post by the Panther that isn’t comic genius! Sh1t just got real
And even comedy isn't going to lessen the shit
What did people think was going to happen last night the ****ing clowns who can't see past their own ****ing existence we're all going to find a consensus no one wants the shit to stick to them
They had 9 ****ing options and can't decide amongst them on one.
The lot want kicking into the street
now, the electorate vote SNP and get tory/labour coalition. WTF.
It's very simple.
SNP is a significant threat to Labour seats in Scotland.
Without Scotland Labour is unlikely to return more seats at a GE than the Conservative party.
Labour won't align and campaign with the SNP because most SNP seats are seats Labour reasonably wants to win and needs to do so to return a majority.
You won't get a Lab/SNP coalition without massive gains in England for Labour meaning an obvious and outright win for Labour solely on votes South of the border.
You won't get a Lab/SNP coalition when that does happen since they won't need a coalition.
So realistically any vote for SNP is a vote for a Conservative government at national level, until IS, at which point Labour isn't likely to ever form a Westminster government again without a massive change in voting trends.
Other than the Scottish independence thing, the SNP would (IMO) stand a very real chance of returning a significant number seats UK wide, but they can't because they don't run UK wide because IS.
So start either voting for what you want not against who you don't and accept the government might not represent you but your local MP should (which is the way the system should work and would actually serve pretty well, though you'd end up with a much more colourful Hoc)
Or if you want to vote "anything but a tory" vote for someone who can win, not someone who can't.
I too am particularly unimpressed with those MPs who did not vote in favour of anything. That's an abdication of their responsibilities and/or a pathetic attempt to curry favour within their own party.
Maybe we should just go with direct rule from Brussels.
mrmonkfinger
Member
Our delightful local friendly Tory voted no deal and against everything else apart from that vague 2 year Fysh thing. Presume that was basically the party line.
as did mine, Ive emailed the inspid muppet to voice my opinion of that
They had 9 **** options and can’t decide amongst them on one.
Had they stuck with normal binary voting they would have likely reached a consensus. The issue with that is no one wanted to go first whilst there are still other "good" options on the table. The point of last night was not to form a consensus but to see if there already was one and, if not, to at least get an idea of which way the wind is blowing so you know which way to go when you try to build a consensus.
You won’t get a Lab/SNP coalition without massive gains in England for Labour meaning an obvious and outright win for Labour solely on votes South of the border.
You won’t get a Lab/SNP coalition when that does happen since they won’t need a coalition.
So realistically any vote for SNP is a vote for a Conservative government at national level,
That's not true though. We could have a minority Labour Government with support from the SNP if the latter held the balance of power.
'So start either voting for what you want'
always do, never been a tactical voter.
ultimately, I wish to see Independence.
My local MP (Nigel evans) also voted no no no no apart from no deal and the fysh piece of sht. True to form
I think we're seeing a correlation with these MPs and the average STWer. Do we tend to live in affluent semi rural, elderly Tory safe shires to be nearer the trails?
Just been listening to the Richard herring podcast with al Murray from may 18 and he makes some excellent points about brexit, how MPs are treating brexit as sport and it's their generation that hold the reins of power now. The comedy guys in Oxford used to s**** at the nascent politicians like JRM. Amongst discussions of which chocolate bar He'd prefer to have shoved up his arse
Had they stuck with normal binary voting they would have likely reached a consensus. The issue with that is no one wanted to go first whilst there are still other “good” options on the table. The point of last night was not to form a consensus but to see if there already was one and, if not, to at least get an idea of which way the wind is blowing so you know which way to go when you try to build a consensus
Ok then now they have an idea no one is going to pitch their tent in any camp pick the top two from the list of non legally binding theatre they produced and see where that goes.
I hazard it's still too many for them to take a stab at because God only knows what the reasoned thinking is in that place
The comedy guys in Oxford used to s**** at the nascent politicians like JRM. Amongst discussions of which chocolate bar He’d prefer to have shoved up his arse
JRM pays Nanny extra for using the Toblerone
dangeourbrain
Subscriber
now, the electorate vote SNP and get tory/labour coalition. WTF.It’s very simple.
SNP is a significant threat to Labour seats in Scotland.
Without Scotland Labour is unlikely to return more seats at a GE than the Conservative party.
Labour won’t align and campaign with the SNP because most SNP seats are seats Labour reasonably wants to win and needs to do so to return a majority.
You won’t get a Lab/SNP coalition without massive gains in England for Labour meaning an obvious and outright win for Labour solely on votes South of the border.
You won’t get a Lab/SNP coalition when that does happen since they won’t need a coalition.
So realistically any vote for SNP is a vote for a Conservative government at national level, until IS, at which point Labour isn’t likely to ever form a Westminster government again without a massive change in voting trends.
Other than the Scottish independence thing, the SNP would (IMO) stand a very real chance of returning a significant number seats UK wide, but they can’t because they don’t run UK wide because IS.
So start either voting for what you want not against who you don’t and accept the government might not represent you but your local MP should (which is the way the system should work and would actually serve pretty well, though you’d end up with a much more colourful Hoc)
Or if you want to vote “anything but a tory” vote for someone who can win, not someone who can’t.
What a steaming pile of horse piss.
Labour returned more seats in England in 1997, 2001, 2005
Tory returned more seats in England in 2010, 2015, 2017. You lot are due to switch at some point(no doubt soon as labour get rid of Corbyn and put someone more electable in position.)
The idea that labour can't ever win in england is nonsense.
And if England can't stomach a supply coalition with the SNP, well that's their problem. They seem to get on fine with the DUP...
God only knows what the reasoned thinking is in that place
"Who's round is it? ", same as everywhere else.
That’s not true though. We could have a minority Labour Government with support from the SNP if the latter held the balance of power.
I'll believe it when I see it. I honestly can't see it being done on any basis but indyref 2 and, if that goes through and we end up with IS the coalition vanishes since the SNP want nothing the Labour Party can give after that. Labour will in my life time not return a majority in England /Wales unless the electorate goes colour blind over night and oh, more importantly, the SNP don't want brexit so aren't likely to help Labour deliver it. Whilst I'm sure there would be many would find it poetic, being in power to deliver brexit before closing the border and applying for IS membership of EU isn't going to sit well with the EU (though macron might find the giant screw you too RoUK very satisfying)
Ok then now they have an idea no one is going to pitch their tent in any camp pick the top two from the list of non legally binding theatre they produced and see where that goes.
It is however a step further from where we were, at least the idea there is some sort of consensus in parliament that the govt won't listen to has been rubbished. In practice it has indicated parliament doesn't want any sort of leave but doesn't have the guts to diy anything about it.
Labour returned more seats in England in 1997, 2001, 2005
Ah yes, the Blair years.
You're right, when the Labour Party is more tory than the Conservative party they do quite well.
Least they were half way competent, I think you'll find that was the biggest defining factor. If labour can't beat the current shambles of a tory party that's their problem.
And if England can’t stomach a supply coalition with the SNP, well that’s their problem. They seem to get on fine with the DUP…
The UK government has an arrangement with the DUP, not England.
If labour can’t beat the current shambles of a tory party that’s their problem.
Completely agree (that the opposition can't oppose the government really is all our problem though, irrespective of which part is which).
I just find it laughable that people vote x then complain z didn't win, like the few very loud remoaners (and I do mean that in the worst connotation) I know who didn't actually vote at the referendum and now whinge at every opportunity, including from the minute the result was announced, about brexit.
There's a great chart here visualising the voting from last night.
Check out @awstojanovic’s Tweet:
And that there is a wonderful representation of everything wrong with our system.
Vote candidate, get party.
I just find it laughable that people vote x then complain z didn’t win.
that's my point, majority voted X
and got Y/Z
that's a shambles.
ansos
The UK government has an arrangement with the DUP, not England.
I get that, but the fear tactic of a labour/snp colation was used heavily in england for the 2015 election.
There’s a great chart here visualising the voting from last night.
Check out @awstojanovic’s Tweet:
So looking at that - the most popular option is Referendum, then Customs Union, then Labour's alternative plan...
Wow.
dangeourbrain
Subscriber
If labour can’t beat the current shambles of a tory party that’s their problem.Completely agree (that the opposition can’t oppose the government really is all our problem though, irrespective of which part is which).
I just find it laughable that people vote x then complain z didn’t win, like the few very loud remoaners (and I do mean that in the worst connotation) I know who didn’t actually vote at the referendum and now whinge at every opportunity, including from the minute the result was announced, about brexit.
tbh, not voting in the ref, considering the lack of info or clear picture of what it meant, was probly a reasonable position. Why should you take a leap of faith one way or the other if you just don't know?
So, yes, they have every right to complain. Not voting is perfectly valid and shouldn't exclude you from the conversation.
If the indicative votes were used to inform what parliament should get the opportunity to vote on next… that might be…
"To approve the Withdrawal Agreement, with the PD changed to indicate that the UK seeks a Customs Union with the EU to minimise the long term impact on Ireland and UK manufacturing, and to put the whole package to UK voters in a referendum during an extended period of membership negotiated with the EU (or using revocation of A50 if extension refused)."
Lots in there that isn't what I want… so much lost personally and for our nations if the public votes to support Leaving on those terms (very likely)… and it still requires lots of decision/negotiations with the EU that is likely to fail… but it is the compromise that those votes suggest parliament could make for us.
Why should you take a leap of faith one way or the other if you just don’t know?
Mandatory voting, but with an option that says "don't know" or "none of the above" is looking more and more desirable to me, both for the public and MPs. Voting needs to be made easier for both though. Yes, I know postal votes are easy… but in this century, it can be made so easy that making it mandatory wouldn't be a bind for anyone. And while lobby voting is great drama, there should be the option for MPs to vote remotely if they have good reason.
Don't agree with mandatory voting either, if people don't want to engage it's up to them. counting the dunno's is pointless and introducing more of an element of random chance to results isn't going to help anything either.
MPs, should be able to remotely vote, and the HOC should have electronic, instant voting.
Why should you take a leap of faith one way or the other if you just don’t know?
Not having an opinion is fine. Having one and not acting on it is fine. Having one, not acting on it then complaining that it didn't turn out as you wanted isn't.
Not really, they made a mistake. I'd personally not hold someone to that forever.
Not really, they made a mistake. I’d personally not hold someone to that forever.
In the particular cases i know of first hand it wasn't a mistake, they genuinely didn't care enough to vote but they care enough to bang on and on and on about how they/we were robbed. There is no contrition, no recognition that remainers not voting might be just as much to blame as 350 million on the side of a bus (they were vocal about that at the time too). It is as ever (in the case of the two people I work with) all someone else's fault, going to the pub instead of the poling both had nothing to do with it.
You can complain about the state of things now, no matter how you voted in 2016, or even if you didn't. Our MPs were elected since then, and still need to do their jobs, and they represent all of us, including non-voters.