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As govt said having nationality / job info allows them to recognise and address skills gaps
But they don't need a [i][b]public[/b][/i] list of [i][b]names[/b][/i] for that do they?
Also they have a National Census every ten years that has extensive questions on who your are, what your nationality is, what qualifications you have and what job you do.
try and understand that Farage and Trump are responding to real issues voters care about
Try and understand that fascists are always responding to real issues voters care about.
Without wanting to Godwin this thread, Hitler didn't rise to power by suggesting genocide and everyone thinking it was a great idea. He got there by demonising and scapegoating people then suggesting ways to deal with them.
The government seems to be back tracking now.
Ironically I was at Wembley on saturday for the England game and without the migrants workers I don't think I'll have got in the stadium, or ordered food and drinks.
Same in Greenwich yesterday.
Ah but they say that we'll let migrants in IF we need them and we do, so they can all come in.
Which won't please the average brexiter I'm sure. But what no-one seems to consider is whether or not people will WANT to come here any more.
The government seems to be back tracking no
they are in complete denial it was ever on the cards
they are very quiet on sterling's continued plunge, too
I always assumed this country was really run by press barons and big industry.
How are they benefitting from the current scenario?
Our friends normally have 3 weeks in a villa in Mustique every year. Not anymore it's too expensive even for them.
They bought a 2.5 million pound house last year which they were going to double in size.
That is on hold indefinitely.
If the very rich stop spending it won't benefit anyone.
No doubt Chewk will be on here saying how good it is that the "elite" are feeling the pinch.**** off.
I always assumed this country was really run by press barons and big industry.
How are they benefitting from the current scenario?
Press barons make money by telling people what they want to hear. The seeds of anti-immigration have always been lying in the soil - UKIP germinated them and Cameron let it all blossom. Now both press and politicians are trying to ingratiate themsevles by joining in.
Just a quickie on the ID thing, if we had a proper integrated system that could access information via some sort ID token contained within the card imagine how many things we could do away with and the money we could save.
All in one driving licence, travel card, firearms certificate, talisman, donor card, NHS ID, National Insurance ID, Government Gateway ID, library pass and whatever else we (generally) carry about our person or require.
What is integrating all that really doing to civil liberties? All that info is readily accessible from their existing systems anyway so all a single card does is get rid of the duplication.
All in one driving licence, travel card, firearms certificate, talisman, donor card, NHS ID, National Insurance ID, Government Gateway ID, library pass and whatever else we (generally) carry about our person or require.
AKA a single point of failure where someone can completely hijack your identity.
squirrelking - Member
Just a quickie on the ID thing, if we had a proper integrated system that could access information via some sort ... etc
didn't we try that with the NHS records?
wasn't it A) spectacularly expensive
and B) a total failure?
Oh great, so anyone who wants to check on a single specific detail of one person needs access to a system storing full details of all citizens. Can't see how that could possibly go wrong.
Oh great, so anyone who wants to check on a single specific detail of one person needs access to a system storing full details of all citizens. Can't see how that could possibly go wrong.
Most of the citizen identity management deployments in other countries are not set up this way.
Although the citizen name is used as an identify the access rights to information (and often the information itself) is stored entirely separately. This enables identity and eligibility to confirmed in each domain e.g. health, state benefits, education etc. without the users in those domains being able to see anything else.
Estonia is quite a good model for this - it's ID card system (which doesn't actually rely on a plastic ID card) is the backbone for a fairly efficient public sector.
Since it looks like we're heading for a hard Brexit anyone thinking about how to get their hands on an EU passport?
Luckily for me I had the foresight to knock up my Italian girlfriend a few years ago. If you marry an Italian you can apply for citizenship after three years or one and a half years if you have kids.
So as soon as Article 50 gets triggered she better be ready for, quite possibly, the most romantic proposal ever.
I can't hold up my permanent residency in Japan as a great opportunity to escape national xenophobia and institutional racism, though at least they are generally polite with it (at least to whiteys like me).
What is integrating all that really doing to civil liberties? All that info is readily accessible from their existing systems anyway so all a single card does is get rid of the duplication.
save that I can choose whether or not I want the certificates etc you mention and they don't give the state the right per se to stop me going about my day to day business without more i.e. a reasonable suspicion that I am guilty of an offence. The state does not need any more power to simply stop me in the street for no reason and ask me to prove to them who I am.
Anyone else getting their CV ready!??
I'm in the automotive industry, working for a German owned firm in the UK. Quite a few staff are from mainland Europe. They've been expanding for the last 2-3 years, just announced to us they are going to stop hiring. Deafening silence from management regarding brexit.
They already have offices in Germany they could try and move staff to (certainly those originally from mainland Europe). 95% of our work is with other EU car firms.
Anyone know what a "full brexit" would mean for a firm like this??
How long is it going to take to get these new trade deals and create jobs from these "amazing opportunities" i keep hearing about??
While you could argue its' 59% in favour, I'd suggest that only 30% fully support it and therefore 70% don't.
Because 'somewhat support' could be as simple as they think the Govt ought to know how many foreigners are in the country, give-or-take a few hundred thousand...
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/10/06/public-backs-plans-make-companies-say-how-many-for/
I think the plans for hard brexit are here - they're about as sensible as anything else I've seen.
Can't understand why May is ignoring political process so much:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37606228
Some kind of bizarre power grab for PM? How come no-one gets a say in the most important thing for 40 years?
Luckily for me I had the foresight to knock up my Italian girlfriend a few years ago. If you marry an Italian you can apply for citizenship after three years or one and a half years if you have kids.
So as soon as Article 50 gets triggered she better be ready for, quite possibly, the most romantic proposal ever.
Ah yes!
My g/f is Irish....
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[i]The prime minister's spokesman said MPs would "debate and scrutinise" the process but not vote on plans.[/I]
So, what level of ridicule/opposition would there need to be for the Govt to actually follow through with whatever plans they had, or would they wait until after instigating Article 50 for this...
How come no-one gets a say in the most important thing for 40 years?
Because now that things are (somewhat predictably) unravelling, most people who aren't foaming-at-the-mouth ultra right wing headbangers can see that this is (somewhat predictably) unfolding into an absolute ****ing disaster. Therefore any invoking of the democratic process will involve lots of people pointing this uncomfortable fact out to said headbangers.
And we can't have any of that nonsense.
We don't want to hear any of those uncomfortable 'facts' that get in the way of the vision for a 1950's style Rule Brittania theme park, where everyone may be unemployed, and bankrupt, but they're 'appy because they get to wave there little flags and we've sent all the darkies home
5p a litre on fuel by the end of the month unless the pound recovers- I think Davies is giving a Brexit update so that's a big no then, his last one was pure fantasy
his last one was pure fantasy
Everything associated with this whole sorry charade seems to belong through the looking glass. And its getting more bonkers by the day. It shows how far we've travelled that even Tory MPs previously regarded as absolutely rabid anti-EU fruitloops are now considered too moderate to be involved in the process, by Theresa and the headbangers she's surrounded herself with.
Christ only knows where these loons are going to end up taking us.
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my plan b is coming along.
^^^ bastard
Ive married a scouser, so Im stuck on this island with a bunch of idiots and xenophobes.
As Ive said before, its my kids Im gutted for, I dont want them to grow up in a dumbed down, Post-Truth society with rising hate crimes and intolerance, post referendum.
Several of the European researchers at our institute were talking about leaving today, the recent anti-foreigner rhetoric coming from the tory party, failure to offer any guarantee about EU worker status and the loss of EU grant money are all big worries. Also as they are paid in £, their salaries looking poor compared to the stronger €.
Kimbers how does fuel price compare over past few years ?
Doom and gloom clickbait continues I see ?
Horatio I imagine management in both UK and Germany are looking closely at Brexit, as it stands uk production is cheaper in euros today with wto tariff applied than it was on June 22nd without. Plus of course till 2019 they have cheaper production and no tariffs.
I am waitng for EU to start blaming Brexit for destabilising European economies and causing a Greek debt default / run in Italian banks etc ... any bad thing you can think of blame Brexit, never EU incompetance
At least the Gernans did capture the Syrian [s]refugee/asylum seeker[/s] ISIs momb maker Merkel allowed into Germany with no background checks after he strolled though open Europe
Brexit is hardly good for Europe is it? It's a lose:lose situation
Watching CH4 news and really sickened to watch IDS trying to out-**** Farrage in terms of abusing Keir.
as it stands uk production is cheaper in euros today with wto tariff applied than it was on June 22nd without.
Yeah there was a story on the BBC today that people are now getting less than one Euro per pound at (rip off) airport foreign exchanges.
The worst reported rate was 88 euro cents to the pound!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37609114
It's an odd argument you have there Jamba. You are telling us that the pound tanking compared to the Euro is a good thing, whilst simultaneously telling us the Euro is going to tank really soon and it will destroy Europe.
@zippy £2.5m house that's £300k in stamp duty so we should thank thrm for their contribution to hmrc. No villa is Mustique = holiday in UK is better for the economy ? I am
A bit surprised a 15% change in holiday price is a worry, I'm still going to Switzerland at 1.20 when 20 years ago it was 2.80. Whilst I agree that reduction in spending is bad for economy the stock STW view is they should be taxed until they bleed anyway
At least the Gernans did capture the Syrian refugee/asylum seekerISIs momb maker Merkel allowed into Germany with no background checks after he strolled though open Europe
Have you got a bet on to see just how low you can stoop or are you just trying to out-idiot yourself?
At least the Gernans did capture the Syrian refugee/asylum seeker ISIs momb maker Merkel allowed into Germany with no background checks after he strolled though open Europe
It was actually 3 Syrian refugees that caught him. I used to think you were just misguided, but it's pretty apparent you are actually a nasty little racist.
Ok I accept the vote, however it is not acceptable or democratic to not allow our elected representatives to vote on the final deal. This actually requires a Commons revolt and it should be led by Mr Corbyn and all other issues need kicking into the long grass.
This is an unbelievable position for a first world democracy to be in and Jambalaya as much as I admire your blind faith (and it does border on fundamentalist) this is not and never can be viewed as a democratic process- the lies and decit that have created this should make us all very ashamed- the Tories will turn us back into a workhouse and the working poor of his country are ****ed
At least the Gernans did capture the Syrian refugee/asylum seeker ISIs momb maker Merkel allowed into Germany with no background checks after he strolled though open Europe
Well clearly Syria shouldn't be allowed in the Schengen Area.
Personally I didn't even know it was part of the EU.
Glad J Snow pulled IDS up on his attack on Keir Starmer in CH4 news
IBS can only aspire to being second rate, a mediocre soldier and someone who lied about his educational attainments.
It's a real testament to what a vile, nasty, xenophobic and generally clueless little turd 'Doctor' Liam Fox is that he almost makes IDS look like an actual human being
Almost...
And who lives in a mansion thanks to his in laws. Never achieved anything and never will.
Horatio I imagine management in both UK and Germany are looking closely at Brexit, as it stands uk production is cheaper in euros today with wto tariff applied than it was on June 22nd without. Plus of course till 2019 they have cheaper production and no tariffs.
Hmm, going for a low cost strategy is always a good solid long term strategy of the desperate.
At least the Gernans did capture the Syrian [s]refugee/asylum seeker[/s] ISIs momb maker Merkel allowed into Germany with no background checks after he strolled though open Europe
What is your foolproof plan for catching every terrorist before they can wreak their havoc on the world?
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[/img]How can anyone take you seriously after that garbage?
Dark Side maybe if they had border checks they would have been able to admit the 3 legitimate refugees and keep out the 1 terrorist ?
Sky News:
Meryn King (ex BoE governor) said the fall in £ was a "welcome change"
Piece on Ireland - in terms of economics Ireland very worried about impact of their important
export business with the UK given fall in £
And who lives in a mansion thanks to his in laws. Never achieved anything and never will.
It's quite scary that we're about to enter the most important negotiations certainly in my lifetime, and I look at the people doing this, and I wouldnt trust any of them to negotiate a reasonable deal on a second hand car.
The £ fluctuation is no surprise really as currency speculators are "riding the wave" of speculation at the moment for early kill. They love the moment like this ... absolutely loving it. Massive gains from speculation.
As if border controls have a separate queuing line for terrorists.
Can someone tell me how to mute the Bullshitter?
Lots of people who disagree can create an interesting forum, but his spouting, and his refusal to engage with anyone that questions his complete twisting of facts in a blatant "up is down" fashion, stops the rest of us discussing things from our different viewpoints, and different opinions.
Can someone tell me how to mute the Bullshitter?
Which one? 😆
Dark Side maybe if they had border checks they would have been able to admit the 3 legitimate refugees and keep out the 1 terrorist ?
I presume we're a few posts away from a metaphor involving a bowl of skittles...?
They could build some big walls. And make ISIS pay for it 😉
@Kelvin - sorry its impossible - and its not just this thread.
On the other hand it can make you feel better knowing that some people are
very fixed in their views and will argue their point to a fault or worse,
Your arse 'Dr' Fox.
https://www.thelocal.no/20161010/norway-rejected-post-brexit-cooperation-with-uk
I expect the good Doctor will have to get very used to being told to **** off on our behalf for the next few years.
He's just too arrogant and thick to realise it yet
Most of the citizen identity management deployments in other countries are not set up this way.Although the citizen name is used as an identify the access rights to information (and often the information itself) is stored entirely separately. This enables identity and eligibility to confirmed in each domain e.g. health, state benefits, education etc. without the users in those domains being able to see anything else.
Estonia is quite a good model for this - it's ID card system (which doesn't actually rely on a plastic ID card) is the backbone for a fairly efficient public sector.
That's pretty much what I was thinking, not surprised Estonia got there first.
And no, you local librarian wouldn't be able to access your health records as they would be on seperate systems and anyway the card is just one part of the ID.
didn't we try that with the NHS records?wasn't it A) spectacularly expensive
and B) a total failure?
Yes and yes. Does that mean it's not possible? No. As above, Estonia managed it.
At least the Gernans did capture the Syrian refugee/asylum seeker ISIs momb maker Merkel allowed into Germany with no background checks after he strolled though open Europe
Aye, good job there were some handy asylum seekers around who did their civic duty to their hosts that recognised and apprehended him eh?
squirrelking: regarding the ID cards. IF they are just a way of providing a single-sign-on AND it is possible to make them secure then I'd have no objection to them except cost (though professionally speaking I don't honestly believe they can be made secure enough).
I think the Civil Liberties objection [i]mainly[/i] comes from trepidation about giving the police the ability to stop you in the street and demand to see your mandatory ID card.
Jamba - I'm sure you are neither racist nor facist, nor even xenophobic, but you might want to read back some of your recent posts because you are giving a certain impression.
Please.
Anyway, moving away from that, remember the we've had enough of experts thing? It suddenly reminds me of regimes that purge their intellectuals - and we can probably all think of a few of those (fewer nice ones of course).
@igm I am an Internationalist. I want every one in the world to have the same opportunity to come to the UK to live and work, subject to the same visa rules. It makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever t have freedom of movement based soley on which foreign passport you hold.
The migrant crises is one very much of the EU's making, from withdrawing funding from the seabased operation to its ludicrous Schengen Zone and the widespread abuse of it's own Dublin Agreement. In my view it is an example of the absolute incompetance of the EU, symptomatic of its wider inability to handle complex issues. It was absolutely clear to me that the EUs conduct was worsening an already significant security position and at the same time worsening already serious humanitarian suffering.
I see today that JCB one of the UK's greatest manufacturing successes has withdrawn it's membership of the CBI over the manner of its pro Remain stance.
The same JCB whose owners were prominent leave donors and the single biggest donors to the tory party at the 2010 GE with 2 million pounds? I bet them leaving the pro-remain CBI came as a shock to absolutely no one.
And the same JCB who are reducing UK manufacturing and moving production abroad? I think you are confusing manufacturing with engineering.
I just watched this interesting video on Cuba and what the locals did to overcome the trade embargo with regards to electrical gadgets.
Y'all might want to get some ideas for when the rest of the world refuses to trade with us:
JCB = Bamford = Brexit
what is the surprise?
Brexit is hardly good for Europe is it? It's a lose:lose situation
It need not be TMH. Personally I think once the electioneering rhetoric from Hollande and Merkel dies down we'll get much more sense. As I posted Hollande is toast and either Sarkozy (or Jupe) or Le Penn will be much more supportive. Merkel is getting more "eurosceptic" too, the voters and the election will see to that.
A proper EEC with no freedom of movement and no budget with no parliament just a "civil service" funded directly by each member state paying for its own representatives
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anybody want to help with the Maths?
Taking the 8.5bn that means that for one year of hard brexit it would take 7.76 years out to make the saving back. (Or using the magic 13bn figure 5.07years)
Or put another way it's costing 57.5bn to save 8.5bn
So if that is right then 2 years post a hard brexit the UK would be over 100bn worse off. Thats paying for a lot of hospitals.
Thats paying for a lot of hospitals.
Well once the foreign staff have gone home we'll need a lot fewer hospitals, so that's OK.
The migrant crises is one very much of the EU's making
There's me thinking it might have something to do with Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Syria. Silly me, wh?
stops the rest of us discussing things from our different viewpoints, and different opinions.
Already noted many times. A posting on an internet bb doesn't need to be a peer reviewed article but endlessly posting fibs just destroys the environment for everyone.
The Times though? Isn't that one of those lefty liberal papers with scant regard for The Truth?
They'll be employing experts next.
Jamba - an internationalist? Excellent. Glad to hear it. Now let's start, not by building borders and barriers, but by disassembling them. I wrote earlier in one of these threads that I dreamed / aspired to a world with complete freedom of movement but with no economic driver disparity to drive migration. (I'm an electrical engineer by training - a copper bar with no potential difference carries no net current - though plenty of electrons move around.) A world where anyone can have the life that essentially I understand you have, going to other countries because there was something there that interested you - a job, perhaps a relationship, perhaps just interest - free from government interference. Governments simply become administrative blocks.
Now I knowthat ranks alongside John Lennon's Imagine in it's level of achievablity - but how do we move towards that not away?
And on security, I can correct George Bush - the price of freedom is that occasionally bad things happen, for eternal vigilance kills freedom.
But what about the 350m a week the Brexiters have been promising us???
even with a soft brexit thats still 6% of GDP
just 10% if we go for fox/davies hard brexit 😯
I see today that JCB one of the UK's greatest manufacturing successes has withdrawn it's membership of the CBI over the manner of its pro Remain stance.
I'm sure JCB have the UK's best interests at heart with their pro Brexit stance, and it had nothing at all to do with their lengthy, costly and nasty legal battle with the EU over their £22 million anti competition fine.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/business/2000/dec/22/6 ]JCB hit with £22 million EU fine[/url]
Must have been an interesting cabinet meeting when they saw the figures. Do the three stooges just simply not believe them ?
Klunk - they're just building up their pension pots and after dinner speaking contacts / content 😉
Must have been an interesting cabinet meeting when they saw the figures. Do the three stooges just simply not believe them ?
This is nothing to do with inconvenient facts. This is being driven entirely by evangelical, mindless ideology, that is an end in itself, no matter what the cost to the rest of us.
Because - make no mistake - the people taking us down this blind alley aren't the ones who are going to end up paying the price of its inevitable failure. They're far too comfortably cushioned from the economic reality of the consequences for that.
Note how the architect of this madness has already exited stage left, taking his millions with him, into the inevitable corporate boardroom appointments, where he'll make even more money, safely detached from the shit-storm he so arrogantly and contemptuously created. This lot won't be far behind him
In my view it is an example of the absolute incompetance of the EU, symptomatic of its wider inability to handle complex issues.
It amuses me greatly that you think the natives could do any better!
@igm I am an Internationalist. I want every one in the world to have the same opportunity to come to the UK to live and work, subject to the same visa rules. It makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever t have freedom of movement based soley on which [s]foreign[/s] passport you hold.
You were nearly right. But to be an internationalist (and coincidentally, that's a great album by Powderfinger), you'd need to recognise that the (mis)fortune of place of birth should have no bearing on your ability to move freely throughout the world.
Now I knowthat ranks alongside John Lennon's Imagine in it's level of achievablity - but how do we move towards that not away?
igm, exactly this. Just because something seems out of our sites now, why should we not still strive to achieve it?
Policy-based evidence making. Conservatives are very keen on it.
Policy-based head in the sands evidence dismissal, more like. No-one's yet got a half-plausible story where this has a happy ending.
Policy-based evidence making
🙂 but also 😥 because it is just so true......still, made me smile through the tears.
Policy-based evidence making
Love this 🙂
Mike that Treasury Report leaked to the Times is based on projections from April made at the request of George Osbourne, ie massively one-eyed pessimistic scenarios designed to scare the population into voting remain. They are the same figures used for the £4000 a year loss to each household.
@zokes well if the definition of internationalist means being able to travel throughout the world I am good with that and thats what I meant, if it means the ability to live and work anywhere without any checks then I am not.
Policy-based evidence making
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If we stay in Europe and ignore all the laws that we don't like what would happen?
Mike that Treasury Report leaked to the Times is based on projections from April made at the request of George Osbourne, ie massively one-eyed pessimistic scenarios designed to scare the population into voting remain. They are the same figures used for the £4000 a year loss to each household.
Jammers darling. You, The Daily Mail, The cabinet and other wilfully blind people are missing the point, quite spectacularly, but very deliberately
We haven't even started yet.
There are a bunch of (ideologically motivated) clowns at the wheel
The wish list of demands are never going to be granted in a million years.They simply can't be
With every day that passes this country looks more and more insular, small minded and unpleasant
Internationalism?
Good luck with that.....
If we stay in Europe and ignore all the laws that we don't like what would happen?
We'd become French.