[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

😀 sorry mol, have to take son to station and the list is far too long. But pour me whatever you are enjoying for my return 😀

What day is it today?

Independence Day + 103

How many people actually gave a **** about the Eu pre vote? How big were the anti EU marches that descended upon London? Are we talking anti war size, poll tax size? Or a few miserable express readers?
Or in reality they only voted out because it took minimal effort.
Sure people moaned but they never actually could be bothered to do anything about it. It was as big a moan as about all the repeats on telly.
It really wasn't that big an issue.
Now the country is ****ed. Well ****ing done.

FFS is that really what you think this is? It's not the bloody FA Cup fina

@dazh Chapeau and I do understand point well made but the bile is imo excessive

I was definitely wrong about the EU, 15 years ago I was really quite pro. The pace of expansion and euro catastrophe have seen me switch my view.

I am at a bit of a loss as to how an exporter would be seen as too risky post Brexit, does the buyer really think the company is going to go bust ?

@zokes et al ..l in 10 years the EU will will look radically different, in fact probably within 3 and that's assuming Le Penn doesn't win. If she does it's going to change very fast, she will have either a Frexit Referendum or at the very least one on euro membership. Whether she does win is gong to be afscinating, her father was defeated by tactical voting but she is going to appeal to many on the left not least if France exits the euro it will not be restrained by borrowing li its debt/GDP and lefties will love the prospect of extra spending.

If other countries where given a Referendum they'd be many leavers.

Jambalaya, the UK is the more elitist country in Europe by a long way.
With Brexit and forthcoming elections in France and Germany, changes will happen inside the EU. But freedom of movement will stay.
The idea of a Super state is long gone.

What would be the impact on the Premiership if clubs need to prove foreign players are better than English?

And no bugger knows what to do, because they're all a bit crap, because for the last 30 years none of them have really had to govern much of anything. The big policies of investing in doctor training and housing - those are basics that should've been happening all along. It's like proudly anouncing you're going to do the washing up after dinner; that's not an innovative policy, it's just what you have to do as a matter of course!

Very well put.

@zokes et al ..l in 10 years the EU will will look radically different, in fact probably within 3 and that's assuming Le Penn doesn't win. If she does it's going to change very fast, she will have either a Frexit Referendum or at the very least one on euro membership. Whether she does win is gong to be afscinating, her father was defeated by tactical voting but she is going to appeal to many on the left not least if France exits the euro it will not be restrained by borrowing li its debt/GDP and lefties will love the prospect of extra spending.

Not very well put. In fact, that's vapid whataboutary even by your very own low standards.

We (most) of us are still here lamenting the mess that the UK is [u]already[/u] in as a result this brexit stupidity. Dragging the rest down with us doesn't make it any better you utter ****, it just makes it worse for everyone in the most cretinous way possible.

What would be the impact on the Premiership if clubs need to prove foreign players are better than English?

Dragging the rest down with us doesn't make it any better you utter ****

Loving your work here zokes! 😆

CC, elite I was referring to the EU rather than the member countries. France certainly gives the UK a run for its money though, you can't hold a senior business job unless you went to one of the ecole superior etc and kids from wealthy families can get tye extra coaching to get there.
Superstate, the EU couldn't wait to say how it would be "more Europe" and full speed ahead on the EU Army. Remember the proposals for a EU "border force" that means soldiers turing up in your country to decide how the border will be controlled !!

As for the Premiership I think a visa system will work well there, we could use it an opportunity to have more British players in the PL. I have heard many in football propose that.

[quote=anagallis_arvensis ]
Loving your work here zokes!

zokes - our EU fanboi, living in Australia 🙂

Zokes right now the UK is doing just fine. The IMF/OECD/Cameron scaremongering has been shown for what it was, blatant intimidation. FX moves work both ways, pros and cons as I said. As we mive forward we are going to be much better off 5 and 10 years from now.

I just hope all those here full of negativity aren't complaining about welath inequality when those who grasp the opportunity Brexit provides to grow our Economy and look to the world make the most of it.

BTW when Greece blows up, contagion is rife and euro stands on the edge of collpase we'll be told it's all Brexit's fault for destabilising the European Union.

I am at a bit of a loss as to how an exporter would be seen as too risky post Brexit, does the buyer really think the company is going to go bust ?

Given the choice between having to cope with currency fluctuations, contract risk and goodness knows what else might change in the next few years, I'd use companies from places still in the EU too.

zokes [b]and mikesmith[/b] - our EU fanboi[b]s[/b], living in Australia [b]a country with a tightly controlled immigration system which has benefitted them both[/b]

FIFY

@phiii genuinely at a loss here, a buyer doesn't care about various laws in producer country just the product and contract spec, currency fluctuations - order placed fx rate set ?

Zokes right now the UK is doing just fine.

Sure it is 😆

[img] [/img]

but the bile is imo excessive

Bile? That was me in full STW polite mode 🙂

But you should understand why people are angry. Ignoring the economics, which I agree are debatable (although not much IMO), it's a fact that my kids (and myself, I'm still not too old) will not in future enjoy the right to live, work and settle in EU countries that I have enjoyed in my lifetime. I never really took advantage of that right, which I now regret given that I'm about to lose it. But the thought that my kids are probably going to have to live out their lives on this small, overcrowded and increasingly xenophobic and hate-filled island is pretty bloody depressing.

And what for? To assuage the twisted and hate-filled prejudices of racists? Or the concerns of misinformed and misled people who are pissed off but don't understand who to be pissed off at? Or the nostalgic fantasies of the older generation who hark back to the 1950s? Or the cynical and morally bereft ambitions of politicians who were willing to gamble the futures of 60 million people to win an election? I've tried hard to see some positive to cling on to, but quite honestly I haven't thought of a single one yet.

jambalaya - Member [i]
zokes and mikesmith - our EU fanbois, living in Australia a country with a tightly controlled immigration system which has benefitted them both
[/i] [b]FIFY[/b]

Anyone else getting irony?

zippykona - Member
How many people actually gave a **** about the Eu pre vote? How big were the anti EU marches that descended upon London? Are we talking anti war size, poll tax size? Or a few miserable express readers?

If you look at the documentary of Brexit by Laura Kuenssberg where she described the entire event leading to the outcome, you will see that people made up their minds long ago. Go watch all the documentaries from day one until the outcome of the vote and analyse the situation accordingly.

I have been watching the Brexit documentary on BBC over and over again, each time I see something new and each time it explains to me about the campaign leading to the final result. If you care to sit down to watch what actually went on during the campaign you will realise that people have never been really in EU. I suggest you watch all the documentaries on Brexit as they are very interesting with both sizes debating.

So you're hacked off that possibly you won't be able to leave the UK to ply your trade elsewhere/settle down without (possibly) having to get a permit/visa ?

C'mon.

Dazh nails it, just seeing some of the xenephobic, divisive closed mindedness that came out of the Tory conference as a result of this vote, the rise in hate crimes, which Brexiters condemn, but we're happy to stoke the hate to win votes, makes me very sad for the country my kids will grow up in.

staggering

Zokes right now the UK is doing just fine

You just keep on message - but it is just all bullshine

The very fact that you are practically on your own in this thread barring the
completely off planets shows just how desperately embarrassing the whole thing is.

Being a stupid racist is now government policy

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/07/lse-brexit-non-uk-experts-foreign-academics

Schools now asking for the nationality of your children:

[img] [/img]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/laurasilver/parents-are-sharing-messages-from-schools-asking-if-their-ch

😯

GrahamS - Member
Schools now asking for the nationality of your children:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/laurasilver/parents-are-sharing-messages-from-schools-asking-if-their-ch

Is that new?

All my oversea friends who studied in the UK have been providing such information to the British govt and schools since the 80s.

Even 10 years ago my niece and nephew were paying fees and providing information to the schools.

Nothing new at all. What's the hype?

So you're hacked off that possibly you won't be able to leave the UK to ply your trade elsewhere/settle down without (possibly) having to get a permit/visa ?

C'mon.

Cmon what? Visas and work permits aren't formalities.

Visas and work permits aren't formalities.

Try waiting for your next contract to be signed before the new visa can come through, or you get kicked out of the country you've lived in for five years within thirty days.

The comment was to dazh, I should have used the quote facility.

Yes, you should

But thanks for the abuse anyway.

You're welcome. Be glad that you're not an immigrant in the UK else you'd be facing much worse thanks to this xenophobic nonsense.

The comment was to dazh, I should have used the quote facility.

Yes, quite frankly. Do you know how hard it is to get a visa/work permit in another country? I work for a multinational engineering consultancy with 90 offices across the globe. We don't hire people from outside the EU very often because it costs a lot of money and involves a lot of bureaucracy. If we don't do it, and we have a very outward looking internationalist philosophy, then I don't think many others will. Working and living in other countries is about to become the privilege of a tiny few.

Try waiting for your next contract to be signed before the new visa can come through, or you get kicked out of the country you've lived in for five years within thirty days.

Witnessed it with close colleagues.

Is that new?

Yes it is. Newly added question on the National School Census:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/laurasilver/parents-are-worried-about-schools-plan-to-ask-what-country-t

Coming immediately after the whole "Companies must list foreign employees" thing too.
Not exactly a welcome face of Britain.

[quote=molgrips ]So you're hacked off that possibly you won't be able to leave the UK to ply your trade elsewhere/settle down without (possibly) having to get a permit/visa ?
C'mon.
Cmon what? Visas and work permits aren't formalities.

Well daz has so far never felt the need to work/live overseas and he's no spring chicken I believe. And what if he or his children decided that Canada/US/Australia seemed like great places to move to, equally pissed off that you couldn't just rock up and live/work ?

Throwing racist/misled/whatever insults around because more people voted to leave than voted to remain is patronising ( Edit: sorry, insulting).

GrahamS - Member

Is that new?

Yes it is. Newly added question on the National School Census:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/laurasilver/parents-are-worried-about-schools-plan-to-ask-what-country-t <

You are concerned with that? Really? 😯

It is Totally NON-issue for all overseas students at all.

We actually tell them We Do Not speak English at home, we come from different countries and we are Non-EU people.

In the far east we supply all this information for almost everything and we carry identification card.

What a non-issue.

what if he or his children decided that Canada/US/Australia seemed like great places to move to, equally pissed off that you couldn't just rock up and live/work ?

Probably not, as that isn't a right they currently have. Their right to do so in the EU is being removed for no rational reason. Understandably, he's a bit peeved.

Throwing racist/misled/whatever insults around because more people voted to leave than voted to remain is patronising.

But it seems as our xenophobic government lurch to hard Brexit with immigration controls apparently more important than access to the common market that they believe there are votes to be won from the racist group. I assume therefore that they reckon it's not a small constituent of the people who voted out.

It's pretty clear that unless you have serious issues in computing information, anyone who voted for brexit on the strength of more money for us, greater prosperity, or even more accountable democracy has been gravely misled.

Well daz has so far never felt the need to work/live overseas and he's no spring chicken I believe. And what if he or his children decided that Canada/US/Australia seemed like great places to move to, equally pissed off that you couldn't just rock up and live/work ?

I have lived and worked overseas in the EU, and loved it - it enriched my life considerably. My parents have also lived overseas, and my sister.

I'd have loved to just pop over to Canada/US and look for work and I did try with the US - and it was pretty damn hard. Likewise my US then girlfriend trying to come here. Very hard to do, in reality. Most people who do end up working trans-Atlantic seem to achieve it by transfer within their own company. Got a friend whose wife did that.

Well daz has so far never felt the need to work/live overseas and he's no spring chicken I believe.

42 for the record. I never felt the need because I took it for granted, something I now realise was pretty stupid. Although I have always harboured dreams of pissing off to the Alps when the kids are gone. Not that I'm using that as example, it's an extremely blinkered and middle class thing to complain about in the grand scheme of things. But the fact that my kids won't even have the option (unless we can wangle an Irish passport through their maternal Irish grandmother) makes me bloody angry quite frankly. I could probably accept it if it was for some grand purpose or idea but it's not is it?

@phiii genuinely at a loss here, a buyer doesn't care about various laws in producer country just the product and contract spec, currency fluctuations - order placed fx rate set ?

As he explained, it's about long term support. Some of us live in a world where we build real things that have to work reliably, and don't just shuffle money around.

Most people who do end up working trans-Atlantic seem to achieve it by transfer within their own company.

A good mate of mine who worked over there had to fork out $20,000 from his own pocket for his green card as his company wasn't willing to stump up.

dazh - Member
A good mate of mine who worked over there had to fork out $20,000 from his own pocket for his green card as his company wasn't willing to stump up.

$20k for a green card? That's cheap. From where?

My cousin need one.

I did try with the US - and it was pretty damn hard.

Workmate of mine (living in Scotland) has a child in the States, with an American mother, that he only gets to see for a few weeks a year. 🙁

I say this is very confusing is it not?

[url= http://anglenews.com/angela-merkel-will-ban-eu-migrants-from-claiming-unemployment-benefits-for-5-years/ ]Angela Merkel will ban EU migrants from claiming unemployment benefits for 5 years[/url]

I thought they are welcoming? Now they are all at it ...

Dunno I can't read it. What exactly is the point in posting links to pay-walled sites?

I can read it dazh? It's making a (slightly tenuous) link between Merkel saying UK must not restrict immigration and her own governments proposals to restrict benefits to recent immigrants.

Now they are all at it ...

Well that's true at least. New YouGov poll confirms traditionally authoritarian far right views are on the rise across Europe:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/extreme-views-are-becoming-the-mainstream-in-britain-and-eur

Doesn't mean we should be leading the charge!

I can read it dazh?

Well I can now. Went to the FT site when I tried. Sly edit?

There's a difference between the rights to benefits and the rights to live and work somewhere. So it's not that confusing. There is a debate to be had about the rights to benefits etc and how that is funded and shared across the EU, but in classic style, instead of thinking the issues through and working with others, The UK has simply decided to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

On the school kids nationality thing we simple refused to tell the school.

They're happy with that - but then we live in York.

According to the article some schools were keen on telling parents that this was new information that the DfE required from the school, but were failing to inform them that the parents could refuse.

As one person noted, when you have Amber Rudd wanting lists of foreign employees, the DfE wanting the birthplace and nationality of your child, and Fox saying that the future of EU citizens in this country cannot be guaranteed, it all adds up to a fairly hostile picture. 🙁

Lists. It always starts with lists.

Agreed Graham - and we should not help them

And if chewkw is listening - identity cards are for totalitarian regimes too (although I normally carry enough ID anyway, that's by choice)

how are we seen accross the pond?

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/07/opinions/xenophobia-over-rationality-mammone/index.html

As he explained, it's about long term support. Some of us live in a world where we build real things that have to work reliably, and don't just shuffle money around.

Of course, Dave down the pub who voted leave understands all of that, doesn't he...

FFS.

igm - Member
And if chewkw is listening - identity cards are for totalitarian regimes too (although I normally carry enough ID anyway, that's by choice)

ID is common in the Far East so no big deal.

ID is common in the Far East so no big deal.

ID is common in the Far East so no big deal.

It was common in Europe in the 1930s too

zokes - Still not a customer

ID is common in the Far East so no big deal.

It was common in Europe in the 1930s too

I find it bloody inconvenient not having an ID card. It would save me a lot of hassle.

It is a big deal

Why?

Why?

"Ihre papieren bitte!"

There is no point having ID cards if the police don't have the power to stop you and ask for it .
Just another big brother stealth move.
Fascism and bigotry are such a hateful things that they must be denied even a molecule of oxygen.

+1

Lists. It always starts with lists.

Better stop the next census,

identity cards are for totalitarian regimes too

From Wikipedia

National identity cards are issued to their citizens by the governments of all European Union member states except Denmark and the United Kingdom,

BnD - I remember the good old days of international flights with no ID. No really, I didn't realise until after I'd got off the plane and cleared immigration that I had no ID. Not sure I'd recommend if but it was a better time.

Of course an educated Scots accent and an honest face are pretty much as good as a passport.

"Today, institutions fundamental to the British system of Government are under attack
the public schools, the house of Lords, the Church of England, the holy institution of Marriage, even our magnificent police force are no longer safe from those who would undermine our society, and it's about time we said 'enough is enough' and saw a return to the traditional British values of discipline, obedience, morality and freedom.
What we want is

Freedom from the reds and the blacks and the criminals
Prostitutes, pansies and punks
Football hooligans, juvenile delinquents
Lesbians and left wing scum
Freedom from the ****s and the ****s and the unions
Freedom from the Gipsies and the Jews
Freedom from leftwing layabouts and liberals
Freedom from the likes of you"

Merkel, do as I say not as I do. Interesting the German govt said it was a "loop hole" which allowed immigrants to claim unemployment. We are in the UK at a disadvantage as our benefots are non-contributory, In France (and Germany I think) yoir unemployment benefit depends on how much you've paid in previously. So an immigrant has generally paid i little/zero so get's little/zero until they've worked for a whils.

And if chewkw is listening - identity cards are for totalitarian regimes too (although I normally carry enough ID anyway, that's by choice)

They have them in France (compulsory to carry it, your passport or present to a Police station asap if stopped) plus a chip and pin card for access to health service.

I'd prefer if we had the same inc for NHS, at least we have photo driving licences now.

EDIT:I see big_n_daft has made a better point, ie pretty much everyone has them

@igm the US used to do internal flights with no ID - I remember them well and going skiing on a ticket in a colleagues name. 911 changed all that

Still don't like them Jamba.

Never had much trust of authority

And it was international flights, not US domestic.

PS I don't mean London Glasgow on the shuttle

@igm the US used to do internal flights with no ID - I remember them well and going skiing on a ticket in a colleagues name. 911 changed all that

Still done in Oz. You just need the passenger's name and destination, or their frequent flier / credit card.

zippykona/TRB +1

I'll be honest, I hate that our students are now given their BRP- basically their PAPERS PLEASE. It's the whole assumption that you are an Other and you will be challenged and asked to prove that you have the right to be here (it's not like there's jackboots out there demanding BRPs but that's the vibe it gives me... meanwhile I rather like the tier 4 visa you get in your passport, it's nicely old school)

But when we're setting up one of our students as a casual worker, it's [i]really handy[/i]. That used to be a pain in the arse. So as long as it saves me 3 minutes a week I'm all for it.

It is a big deal
Why?

A lurch to incorporate xenophobic practices is not the same as long established protocol

Food price has started to rise on my dads farm due to whey price increasing - due to exporting more...

And so it goes on..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-37590044

Nipper that's been posted before and why not ? Politically sensitive work to be carried out by citizens only ? That's exactly the policy in the US.

A lurch to incorporate xenophobic practices is not the same as long established protocol

Checking someone's right to work or study is not xenophobic. At the border we check for right of entry only.

Of course the Leavers are helped to make their anti-EU argument when the opposing side nominate someone as chief negotiator who has, shall we say, a personal interest in the outcome ...

https://www.thepressproject.gr/details_en.php?aid=62406

Allegedly.

posted before and why not ?

Because refusing to take the advice of someone purely based on their nationality is a ridiculously blinkered, ignorant, small-minded and stupid stance to take. I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that an eminently qualified academic or professional is easily capable of putting aside their nationality when assessing a particular subject which might involve nationality?

Nipper that's been posted before and why not ? Politically sensitive work to be carried out by citizens only ? That's exactly the policy in the US.

So is the death penalty. Your point?

I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that an eminently qualified academic or professional is easily capable of putting aside their nationality when assessing a particular subject which might involve nationality?

TBH I can easily believe that this would not have occurred to some people.

Checking someone's right to work or study is not xenophobic. At the border we check for right of entry only.

Well, you are discriminating against them on the basis of nationality. Just because we're normalised to it under the guise of "border control" doesn't change the fact that the only reason you're treating them differently is because of where they were born.

Come on Jamba have we all to carry id cards to prove our right to work now. Or is it just immigrants?
We already have national insurance numbers which are proof of a right to work, though not proof of identity

Politically sensitive work to be carried out by citizens only ? That's exactly the policy in the US.

Well it isn't, but anyway, let's assume that is the case - it would be their loss.

In the past, I have been involved in advising foreign counties in politically sensitive issues eg, financing, bank regulation and restructuring, access for foreigners etc.

Why would the UK ignore expertise juts because someone was born somewhere else? We should be outward looking and unafraid of competition not narrow-minded and protectionist