On this point, how is she going to make that vote happen, given Bercow’s ruling?
Same as has been done before. Historic precedent can be made to work both ways.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-parliaments-47643256
Same as has been done before. Historic precedent can be made to work both ways.
What's the precedent?
On this point, how is she going to make that vote happen, given Bercow’s ruling?
As I said, she said last night that she has obtained formalised further reassurances as regards the backstop(s). The basis of "substantial change" will be based on that, I suspect.
for ignoring the referendum result. It’s just as entrenched a position as the no-deal headbangers, however sympathetic I might be to the motivations behind it.
Only if you consider that by calling A50 and spending time negotiating a WA as ignoring it, if your entrenched position is that any brexit is brexit and what was voted for is whatever gets delivered.
You assume that nobody can change their minds (which the PM does by ignoring people) and that nothing has changed.
The political decisions that need to be made are about what is on offer today, not what was on offer in 2016.
Yep, last week's agreement on the backstop between May and Tusk(?) was formally adopted by the EU27 last night, so there's a bit of a change to use as leverage too.
Then there was the early negotiating period, during which EU leaders thought May’s robotic, inscrutable manner concealed a deep, strategic intelligence. They came to realise that there was no mask. The inanity – the reciting of “Brexit means Brexit” even in private meetings – was not the cover story for a secret plan. It was the plan.
May is finished, she has no friends left. That final demagogic stunt she pulled on Wednesday has finished her domestically. The EU also sealed her fate by granting an unconditional extension until the middle of April, just enough time to remove her.
When and it is "when" not "if" MV3 fails May will be ousted there will be an interim Tory leader, probably Liddington. The EU will be asked for a long extension and there will be a general election and either a 2nd ref or a softer Brexit.
Have we cone this yet?
Vince Cable claimed that Theresa May in her meeting with opposition leaders said that "the people voted for pain" when asked about the damage No Deal might wreak.
https://twitter.com/jamesorharry/status/1108858494021701632
Her inner dominatrix is emerging?
Whether you agree with Brexit or not,something workable could have been achieved from a bespoke/new off the shelf package to one of the options already out there.
Theresa May is soley responsible for the mess we're in now.History will quite rightly not be kind to her.
Theresa May is soley responsible
I would suggest that the whole oxbridge political class have been exposed as incompetent idiots educated beyond their intelligence. There is not a single one that has demonstrated any kind of intellect, thought process or problem solving abilaty. They all just keep plowing on stupidly believing in their privileged destiny to rule.
This is a systemic problem of rule by the elites (the real elites, the rich over privileged assholes who a running the show, not the pretend elite liberals champagne socialist the alt right crow about). I would have even see the exposure as a silver lining, but their grasp of power is so powerful they are still able to scapegoat the responsibility onto the EU and the liberals, rather than where it really lies.
ransos,
Yes some remainers would have continued to want to ignore the vote no matter what direction brexit took.
But the changing opinions in the voters are at least as much of a reflection of Theresas failure.
As I said, recognising division, trying to resolve it and steering a middle ground soft brexit would have made most of the rancour go away.
But she didn't do that.
So here we are.
MSP I'm referring to May post the Brexit vote.She has excluded everyone,even her own party.Her judgement-if she even has any- has been completely flawed at every turn from her timeasHomeSecretary,her leader's speech at the Tory conference,her red lines,her appointment of ministers,her call for an election,her treatment of parliament and the EU etc etc etc.
The fact is that wishing to remain in the EU means ignoring the referendum result.
No it doesn't.
We had a general election in 2017. Why is that not undemocratically ignoring the results of the 2015 GE?
I’m saying you lot want it to be ignored, set aside, reversed or whichever way you want to phrase it.
No we don't.
You keep asserting this. It's not true, it's leaver spin, and I don't know how many more times we can explain the same thing in slightly different ways until you understand.
the government gave a very clear commitment that a Yes vote would mean leaving the EU.
The government gave a very clear commitment that Cameron would deliver whatever the result. How's he doing?
It seems to me that they’ve been hijacked by shouty gammons and disaster capitalists, meanwhile, the pissed-off, poor and desparate continue to have their voices ignored.
Yet it's perfectly acceptable to ignore the voices the 16+ million who voted to remain.
Please explain to me how 17M votes is "the will of the people" and 16M votes is "we won you lost shut up and get on with it." The gammons complain about "remoaners" but is it any wonder when next to no-one is speaking for us, rather attempting to bully us into silence at every turn. Is this a democracy you recognise?
This entire thing is an exercise in cherry-picking. Different rules are being applied to near-identical situations depending on whether it goes in leave's favour or not.
May **** the job
but those idiot brexiteers cheered her red lines, the same red lines that made her deal & the backstop inevitable
unfortunately those same MPs, the pundits, papers, farage etc still pushing out the same BS that we can somehow magically have our cake & eat it
I was arguing with someone on facebook last night who was certain we send the EU £39bn a week.......
Adopting the Euro is not compulsory
It is for new joiners, no?
No.
A mandatory precursor to joining the Euro is 2 years in the ERM. Joining the ERM is completely voluntary.
I was arguing with someone on facebook last night who was certain we send the EU £39bn a week…….
Unfortunately this level of education and understanding seems to be the most common amongst the vocal leavers on our local Facebook groups. In other words there is no education or understanding beyond what they heard someone say in the chip shop on Friday night.
Out of all the rational leavers I know, the ones who put some kind of objective thought into their decision and continue to do so: I don't know a single one who wishes to leave on the current terms.
New joiners to the E.U. are required to meet convergence criteria, leading to membership of the Euro. (Lifted from the European Commission website) There is no written timetable for this, but it will be part of the accession process.
Anyone heard any more about this lorry driver's protest? Still only local outlets and the express reporting anything.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/BBCAskThis?src=hash
The BBC are inviting questions to be put to them on BBC news later today
No it doesn’t.
We had a general election in 2017. Why is that not undemocratically ignoring the results of the 2015 GE?
The referendum was to seek a mandate for a specific action that cannot easily be reversed. It is very different to a general election, though you will be aware that the last general election also gave an overwhelming majority to parties committed to leaving the EU.
The government gave a very clear commitment that Cameron would deliver whatever the result. How’s he doing?
I don't recall seeing Cameron's name on the ballot paper.
Please explain to me how 17M votes is “the will of the people” and 16M votes is “we won you lost shut up and get on with it.” The gammons complain about “remoaners” but is it any wonder when next to no-one is speaking for us, rather attempting to bully us into silence at every turn. Is this a democracy you recognise?
I expect Scottish nationalists feel the same way: it's how referendums work.
No 10 run by lunatics says source close to the cabinet. It is so far beyond satire...
DoeS this mean brexival is cancelled or postponed?
Can I get a refund ?
Out of all the rational leavers I know, the ones who put some kind of objective thought into their decision and continue to do so: I don’t know a single one who wishes to leave on the current terms
This quote from a leaver just posted on our local FB group seems to concur.
"Teresa May.Is either a person who like Baldrick has a very cunning plan not yet come to fruition
or
Has lost the plot and needs someone to tell her that it is all over this time next week.
or
Needs to see a audiologist because she definitely is not hearing what is said to her
or
May be have the onset of some repetitive disorder about the word deliver.
She keeps stating that she is going to deliver to the people and has being doing so for ages.
Has anyone got a idea what it is that she is or is not delivering?
I thought that I was pretty good at weighing people up
This woman has me baffled.What was a simple task for a person with the right frame of mind she has complicated beyond belief.She has killed off what was left of any trust in politicians.
She has put democracy on a knife edge.She has not helped to bring the people together after a divisive vote but opened up opportunities for it to become more so.She was a failure as the Home Secretary but wholeheartedly denies that any decisions that she made then were wrong.She has surrounded herself with Numpties."
We had a general election in 2017. Why is that not undemocratically ignoring the results of the 2015 GE?
And you say I'm being obtuse? You know full well general elections are different to referenda. Even the uneducated thickos who voted leave understand this.
No we don’t.
What do you want then if not to reverse the decision of the referendum? You may think it's clear but I have no idea what you want if it's not to cancel brexit.
The government gave a very clear commitment that Cameron would deliver whatever the result.
Please come on, this is getting silly. You know full well that governments are bound by the decisions of previous governments. You can't argue that May should cancel brexit because she wasn't PM when the referendum was legislated.
The referendum was to seek a mandate for a specific action that cannot easily be reversed. It is very different to a general election, though you will be aware that the last general election also gave an overwhelming majority to parties committed to leaving the EU.
Turns out we thought it could not be reversed but that was just the Maybot trying to hide that from us, had you known it could have been easily reversed would that have changed your vote?
I think it's also been said many times, the only conclusion you can draw from the last GE was Brexit and party politics don't mix well, trying to claim a vote for Labour was a vote for Leave is and has been shown to be false.
You are May's statistician and I claim my 5 shillings
This woman has me baffled.
The Guardian today has an article on the total dysfunction at the heart of government. She's gone full paranoid bunker mentality. Apparently she consults absolutely nobody before making decisions, and not even the cabinet members have the remotest idea what she's going to do before she does it. Hence that outrageous 'enemies of the people' speech the other night which managed to alienate pretty much all the remaining support she had, and anyone outside the bunker would have advised her not to make. one cabinet member has stated, in a direct quote, that Number 10 is now 'run by lunatics'
She has also stated that as she can't be dislodged by the party she has no intention of resigning, under any circumstances
To all intents and purposes we are now living in an elected dictatorship
We are all passengers in a speeding car with a suicidal madwoman at the wheel
You know full well that governments are bound by the decisions of previous governments.
Oh my god! Some of the claims made on here recently… I mean… come on… at least try and make your bullshit make sense. What would be the point of electing new governments if they couldn't change what previous governments have inacted? How would a government be able to set us on the road to leaving the EU, if previous governments had decided to sign us up to the treaties that make us a member?
Turns out we thought it could not be reversed but that was just the Maybot trying to hide that from us, had you known it could have been easily reversed would that have changed your vote?
I think it’s also been said many times, the only conclusion you can draw from the last GE was Brexit and party politics don’t mix well, trying to claim a vote for Labour was a vote for Leave is and has been shown to be false.
You are May’s statistician and I claim my 5 shillings
If you're saying that leaving and rejoining the EU is a simple process then I'm eager to learn more. Really though, all you're doing is proving DazH's point that there is no limit to the gymnastics you'll perform in order to justify your point of view.
So, to avoid No Deal, it just requires Parliament, with May's permission, to put aside party and personal considerations and come up with at least the beginnings of a plan within about the next 10 days.
We're stuffed 🙁
Oh my god! Some of the claims made on here recently… I mean… come on… at least try and make your bullshit make sense.
So you're arguing that the May government is not bound by the referendum result because it was held by the Cameron government? And please, give the insults a rest.
Our council tax has gone up again.
I have written to mr grayling asking how much it will go down next year once we have taken back control.
I await his response.
Please write to your leave MP asking the same question.
We’re stuffed
It does suggest either No Deal or No May, doesn't it? But she'll find a way to cling on somehow, I suspect.
You know full well that governments are bound by the decisions of previous governments.
This is untrue
So, to avoid No Deal, it just requires Parliament, with May’s permission, to put aside party and personal considerations and come up with at least the beginnings of a plan within about the next 10 days.
We’re stuffed 🙁
I'm slightly (though not much) more optimistic: discipline has completely broken down in the Tory party so there's a chance that Parliament can act decisively without her permission.
If you’re saying that leaving and rejoining the EU is a simple process then I’m eager to learn more.
Nope the article 50 process has an exit clause (Which the PM tried to block being highlighted) , the process of leaving is reversible up until the date we agree a leave and the date from that. We are still in that process at the moment and nobody has presented a deal that is acceptable to a majority of those who voted leave let alone those who voted remain.
There is a dedline - the UK needs to come up with a plan to leave or remain.
Really though, all you’re doing is proving DazH’s point that there is no limit to the gymnastics you’ll perform in order to justify your point of view.
I'm still waiting for Daz to tell us how he knows what is unacceptable to the people given current polling doesn't support that. The basis for his entire argument is built on opinions not facts hence if gets stuck in loops a lot.
I do want to cancel Brexit, but would fully accept the result of a second referendum even if it was to still leave the EU. The cards are now on the table, we know the immediate cost, we know some of the potential pitfallss and most of the projected benefits, we also know how complicated it is to make it work.
Let’s vote again in the cold light of day and see what the people say. I guarantee you that if its still leave, it’ll kill the remain cause.
No government can bind its successor to anything. Its a basic princple of UK governance.
And please, give the insults a rest.
Pointing out an untruth is an insult?
You know full well that governments are bound by the decisions of previous governments.
Makes no sense. New governments would not be able to change anything implemented by their predecessors. Democracy would have stopped long ago.
I think a "no confidence" vote in the tory government now has a chance of passing. May has so upset so many tories and the DUP its quite possible enough would vote her down.
That would need a handful of Conservative MPs to become independents… but some speeches this week suggest that isn't impossible. May has really rattled some of them.
No government can bind its successor to anything. Its a basic princple of UK governance.
Knowing the pedantry on here I should have added 'until the government repeals previous legislation', but obviously I'm being somewhat generous in thinking that people would have realised that. Still, if you want to argue that the result of the referendum should be nullified on the basis that it wasn't May's idea then good luck!
That would need a handful of Conservative MPs to become independents… but some speeches this week suggest that isn’t impossible. May has really rattled some of them.
Or agree to take it down for the last hope of the party. Going another 4 or 5 rounds of this will help none of them.
Daz - I agree with your top point above about being bound by previous legislation.
The Referendum, however, in legislation, was not binding, but advisory. So nothing binding this government to its result at all.
Still, if you want to argue that the result of the referendum should be nullified on the basis that it wasn’t May’s idea then good luck!
[Whats the point]
Nothing stated here nullifies the result. It updates the position, I mean it's not like asking the same question over and over again while holding a knife to the throat is it....
June 2016 happened, we all know that, this is March 2019 we need to find a way out of the current situation and we have several legal options open to us.
