Nudging 2.6 million now, by the way.
How on earth can you say its been ignored ?
I’m not, I’m saying you lot want it to be ignored, set aside, reversed or whichever way you want to phrase it. And I’m saying that will be a very bad idea which will compound the core problem.
Am I wrong that you don’t want the result to be implemented? You can’t use the fact that it’s taken a long time or it’s just too hard as a justification. People who voted to leave will simply not accept this.
Nobody has ignored the referendum result. The machinations of the last couple of years have all been about finding a version of Brexit that satisfies the principles endorsed in the referendum without immolating the economy or the NI peace process. Trouble is, the inescapable conclusion is that this version doesn't exist, certainly not within Theresa's red lines.
The instruction given by the referendum result has been thoroughly explored, and found to be undeliverable. At this point we have to decide whether we want Brexit at all costs, Brexit in Name Only, or Remain.
I personally don't think that a second referendum is the answer, mainly because I think there's a good chance that remain would lose again. I would love to see the whole thing revoked, but increasingly I think the only way this can be resolved is a very soft Brexit. That acknowledges the referendum result (you can never satisfy the no-deal loons), without completely collapsing the economy.
I'd rather this national wound had never been ripped open, but I don't think there's any way to sew it up without leaving a significant scar.
Martin - when history comes to write the book on this absolute cluster-**** they needn't bother. You couldn't possibly have a batter account than just publishing Marina Hyde's pieces in the Guardian from the last few years.
If you want to read something truly depressing, then this takes some beating. From yesterdays Guardian. How we're now viewed from Europe. However this plays out our international reputation is in tatters. Its not even that we're a laughing stock. Its far far worse than that. People now view us with a mixture of pity and contempt
Pathetic, incoherent, chaotic: Europe's verdict on Brexit shambles
Am I wrong that you don’t want the result to be implemented?
It has been, as Rees mogg suggested we are thinking of a confirmation vote (especially important as moat Brexiters don't seem to accept the current deal)
People who voted to leave will simply not accept this.
Go on evidence please. How many of them? Why do you think ignoring the majority will go down and is less important.
What are your thoughts on the current polling? It does seem.to say a majority are against no deal or mays deal (when asked separately)
In the long run, of course, we will have to reapply to join the EU. At that point it is bye bye Sterling in even its symbolic sense.
How so? Adopting the Euro is not compulsory.
It is for new joiners, no?
Yeah, I thought that too. Sweden kept it's Kronor because they held a legally binding referendum in 2003 that rejected accepting the Euro. Wikipedia said it was close, but not as close as this (55% No, 42% Yes, 2.1% blank)
How much more can she take? Its an utter personal humiliation for her
It has been clear from the get-go that May's interest has solely been making sure that she doesn't go down in History as the Conservative PM that destroyed the Tory Party. My guessing is that there is not not enough humiliation that can be heaped upon her as long as that scenario doesn't come to pass.
People who voted to leave will simply not accept this.
if you are so confident that it is still the 'will of the people' to leave, why are you so against asking them to make sure...it'll be an easy win yeah?
There’s an interesting statistical correlation when you compare the map of the number of signatures (or lack of) for the petition and this one
Do you have the numbers for this and at what signifcance level?
It would also be interesting to see the correlation between te map you present and EU convergence funding (which should match impoverished region) and then between funding and voting.
THis is an interesting quote I've just found from a gov document:
"As a result, funding is not distributed evenly across the UK. The charts on the next page show that while England receives the most funding with an annual average of €1.5 billion, it is Wales that receives the most per person (€140 per person, per year, more than five times that in England). This reflects the fact that ESI funding is heavily weighted towards ‘less developed’ regions."
The link can be found here: EU funding PDF
Is one way of spinning it. Its been very handy to shift any blame from the architects of leave.
No, it's a fact. You may think ignoring it is justified, but the government gave a very clear commitment that a Yes vote would mean leaving the EU.
dazh,
There was a way to respect the vote and deliver brexit.
The result was a blow, but justified the softest brexit possible (Norway(ish)
That would have lost some hard leave support, but I (and I think maybe 1/3 or 1/2 of remainers?) would have ultimately got behind it to make the best of a bad job.
This thread would have died, keyboards would have been glad of a rest and people would have got on with their lives.
But then the red lines arrived, remainers became "citizens of nowhere" and "traitors", the single market became a fools dream, and basically the leavers moved the goalposts so far that we're no longer playing the same game.
And thats why the vote shouldn't be treated as immutable. Leavers are now saying the "no deal" is the way forward, and even claiming thats what they campaigned and voted for, when the phrase wasn't even in use during the referendum, and the concept was roundly criticised by everyone on every side.
Theres no way to honestly claim that either what Theresa has delivered, or what the ERG are pushing for is an attempt to "respect the result" or anything but an attempt to settle differences in the tory party.
On that basis they've taken what could have been a divisive but ultimately solvable problem and turned it into a winner takes all shitshow.
I can respect your respect for the vote, but we are in a different place now. Saying that the result should be respected back then was perfectly reasonable.
Saying it now (if a Norway style deal was on the table) would be perfectly reasonable.
But saying it when the possible choices are Theresas deal or no deal
How about nope.
I simply cannot understand what is "undemocratic" about having another referendum now that we know what leaving actually means and now that the lies of the leave side are so obviously exposed and that the downsides are now so visible.
Of course its not undemocratic - its simply that the leavers understand a new vote would be for remain IMO
But then the red lines arrived, remainers became “citizens of nowhere” and “traitors”, the single market became a fools dream, and basically the leavers moved the goalposts so far that we’re no longer playing the same game.
And thats why the vote shouldn’t be treated as immutable. Leavers are now saying the “no deal” is the way forward, and even claiming thats what they campaigned and voted for, when the phrase wasn’t even in use during the referendum, and the concept was roundly criticised by everyone on every side.
Theres no way to honestly claim that either what Theresa has delivered, or what the ERG are pushing for is an attempt to “respect the result” or anything but an attempt to settle differences in the tory party.
I sort of agree, but you're treating Leavers as a single entity. It seems to me that they've been hijacked by shouty gammons and disaster capitalists, meanwhile, the pissed-off, poor and desparate continue to have their voices ignored.
tj +1
If Theresa's latest claim is to be representing views of the people (against an intransigent parliament), maybe she should ask the people if they agree?
I think eat_the_pudding, with Ransos's ammendment, has the crux of the problem. I imagine if a soft brext had been proposed, parliment would have got behind it, the counry would have been indifferent and we would have been leaving next week. The is a strong correlation between polorisation of view and strength of conviction. I'm not sure if its now too late for a middle ground soft brexit solution but I sincerely hope not. I think that's why the revoke petition is important, I don't think it will make us stay in the EU but it does lend weight to the concept of a softer brexit.
I think the EU have shown how skillful they are. Clever proposal from them. To think that so many people thought that the appalling May could have got anything other than a sound kicking from them is hilarious.
Look, I get it, you’ve all convinced yourselves through various logical gymnastics that the referendum result should be ignored.
Well, look I get it, you have convinced yourself that we are all saying ignore the referendum result. That simply isn't the case. As I said yesterday "Yes the referendum demonstrated that there are a lot of people with misgivings (and I would add misunderstandings) regarding the EU and the relationship between it and member states’ governments. These issues need attention across the whole of Europe".
In no way can 52/48 be considered an overwhelming majority on which to take a decision of such magnitude. The sensible approach by a responsible, pragmatic, SOVEREIGN parliament would be to accept the result displays many misgivings about our relationship with the EU and to investigate with our European partners what changes are needed - because similar issues are raised in other countries too.
Sadly as has been pointed out many, many times this whole exercise is in fact "how do we safeguard the Tory party?".
meanwhile, the pissed-off, poor and desparate continue to have their voices ignored
The very people who were "played" by the leave campaign to believe all their problems were caused by EU rather than domestic policy.
Agree, Molgrips. I also think its an eminantly sensible proposition.
but you’re treating Leavers as a single entity
Quite the opposite. Those saying that either No Deal or the Withdrawl Arrangement reflect what Leavers were voting for are the ones claiming a united mandate based on treating everyone who voted Leave as a single entity. We're pretty sure they are far from that. This is why a single deliverable option needs a mandate. The PM is looking for this in parliament… others say she would be better looking for it in a public vote.
I simply cannot understand what is “undemocratic” about having another referendum now that we know what leaving actually means and now that the lies of the leave side are so obviously exposed and that the downsides are now so visible.
I'm sure you would have been delighted if the Scotland Indy ref had gone for independence but after a couple of years of wrangling over the departure details then it was called off or a second ref was proposed.
MPs will shit it next week and vote for her deal to avoid hard brexit.
Although nothing has fundamentally changed with the deal so Bercow may block it but May believes the extension and delay options constitute changes to the deal (I disagree)
I think the EU have shown how skillful they are. Clever proposal from them. To think that so many people thought that the appalling May could have got anything other than a sound kicking from them is hilarious.
Agreed. They've created the space for Parliament to seize control of the process from the government and come back with a new offer. My guess is that there is a majority for soft Brexit but we will need the mooted indicative votes proposal to happen very soon.
I sort of agree, but you’re treating Leavers as a single entity
Is that not something we can all be guilty of... assuming that all folks who voted leave did so live in deprived areas in the norf and are victims of austerity cuts and being ignored by the political classes (and therefore the referendum should be honored) is also a massive over simplification. Whilst without doubt there are significant numbers of those, there are not 17.5 million of them.
There were many reasons for voting leave. What the leave campaign did extremely well is identified these sections of the public and then very carefully targeted messaging to each one of them. It was a very sophisticated campaign using some pretty heavy technology too. This was a great way to win the campaign.
However, it also produce the problem we have now, which is lots of leave voters want completely different things and hence nobody can agree. The government didn't recognise this and did nothing to create some kind of consensus that folk could get behind and here we are..........
I’m sure you would have been delighted if the Scotland Indy ref had gone for independence but after a couple of years of wrangling over the departure details then it was called off or a second ref was proposed.
Conversely Nick, a 2nd EU ref kills off the tory argument of "once in a lifetime" for the indy ref vote, hence their complete opposition to a 2nd EU vote
My guess is that there is a majority for soft Brexit but we will need the mooted indicative votes proposal to happen very soon.
Will either main party drop the ending of FoM redline? If not, wishing a "soft Brexit" is irrelevant.
Quite the opposite. Those saying that either No Deal or the Withdrawl Arrangement reflect what Leavers were voting for are the ones claiming a united mandate based on treating everyone who voted Leave as a single entity. We’re pretty sure they are far from that. This is why a single deliverable option needs a mandate. The PM is looking for this in parliament… others say she would be better looking for it in a public vote.
I was replying to eat_the_pudding.
I’m sure you would have been delighted if the Scotland Indy ref had gone for independence but after a couple of years of wrangling over the departure details then it was called off or a second ref was proposed.
Actually that was my preferred option. Indicative referendum to start the process, binding referendum when the process was clear.
its simply that the leavers understand a new vote would be for remain IMO
But we who live in our little comfortable bubbles thought it would be for remain last time. Whatever happens leave or stay it won't change the fact that we have a country that appears to have a split right down the middle and that I think is what is most damaging. A united country could cope with leaving or staying but one as divided as this is going to struggle whatever the outcome.
If you think that reversing the decision, and I'm one who has signed the petition, will be the end of this then I think you are mistaken.
we are all Renton now
Quite.
Will either main party drop the ending of FoM redline? If not, wishing a “soft Brexit” is irrelevant.
That's the whole point of indicative votes. You repeatedly vote on a long list of options, reject the least popular each time, until you're left with two options.
Conversely Nick, a 2nd EU ref kills off the tory argument of “once in a lifetime” for the indy ref vote, hence their complete opposition to a 2nd EU vote
You've already had 2 Indy votes in my lifetime,both post joing the Common Market.You may be a bit a young to remember that wonderfully fair and democratic option that Westminster deigned to give you first time round 🙂
we are all Renton now
*rushes out to move car away from bins*
MPs will shit it next week and vote for her deal to avoid hard brexit.
Maybe if the EU had offered an extension conditional on her deal being accepted, but by offering the shorter option they've heavily signalled that they do not want a no deal scenario and are encouraging us to come up with something that the country (except May) actually wants. May's deal will die a third death next week, then I'd expect indicative votes on alternatives. Jezza may thrown in a no confidence motion after her deal gets kicked into touch, or May might even fall on her sword as she's made it pretty clear that "as PM" she isn't interested in anything other than her deal.
Hopefully before all of that there will be a vote to amend the withdrawal act text from "29th March" to "a date agreed by the UK and EU".
ransos,
I'm not treating leavers as a single entity, but theresa and farage and co. are.
They've won and they don't even give a crap about the views of the majority of their own supporters.
If you believe the polling just after the result probably 10 or 15% (from memory) of leavers would have supported whats on offer now (no deal or out of the single market and customs union).
I make that as 85% of people being ignored (plus those who didn't vote and should probably be counted as votes for the status quo).
The important question here is how will making everyone poorer help the poor?
How will taking manufacturing jobs out of the middle of relatively deprived areas help anyone?
Remaining without sorting out some of the underlying pish we have in this country would be a massive shame, but leaving like this would just exacerbate the pish.
At least remaining might give us the money (for money read "choice") to solve some of the problems, although as always whether we use it for that or not is another matter.
A soft brexit, as I mentioned above, could have been nearly as good as remain, and brought people together, but thats not on the table (even the unobtainable labour brexit plan [codename unicorn 1] isn't that).
It's winner takes all, the middle ground has gone.
And "Remoaners" didn't make it that way.
You have to decide if you support the people who didn't respect the views of remainers OR leavers.
Or support remain.
Those are the choices available.
nick - the referendum in the 70s was on setting up a scottish parliament ie a devolved administration - not independence
I think the EU have shown how skillful they are.
I think one thing thats being ignored here is how effective the ERG have been too. From the day after the referendum they have progressively moved the narrative further and further and further to the right.
May has played into their hands every step of the way, not least through her appalling choice of language. Rees Mogg and the hardliners must have jumped for joy when they heard her, really early in the process, use the term 'citizens of nowhere'. She's an awful politician. Any remotely diplomatic leader would never have dreamt of using such emotive and divisive language. She did it again the other night, using disgusting nationalist rhetoric which again plays straight into the hands of the hard right
Almost 3 million signatures on that petition now
It’s winner takes all, the middle ground has gone.
And “Remoaners” didn’t make it that way.You have to decide if you support the people who didn’t respect the views of remainers OR leavers.
Or support remain.Those are the choices available.
I don't think that's true, and it's certainly not true after the EU proposals agreed last night.
First, you can hardly argue that "remoaners" didn't make it that way when they've consistently argued - with ever increasing sophistry - for ignoring the referendum result. It's just as entrenched a position as the no-deal headbangers, however sympathetic I might be to the motivations behind it.
Second, the government position is the WA or no deal. May's deal is crap but it is an alternative to no deal so you cannot argue that she is treating Leavers as a single entity.
Third, the EU proposals last night change things. They are bypassing government and inviting Parliament to propose a way forward. Whilst I can't predict what will happen you can't now reasonably say that any particular option is off the table.
nick – the referendum in the 70s was on setting up a scottish parliament ie a devolved administration – not independence
My bad.
May’s deal will die a third death next week
On this point, how is she going to make that vote happen, given Bercow's ruling?
Almost 3 million signatures on that petition now
2.6million more than the no deal one (which has been running for 5 months) too...
Yes, I seem to have missed the bit where Bercow changed his mind about the vote, which presents something identical to the previous two.
At least remaining might give us the money (for money read “choice”) to solve some of the problems, although as always whether we use it for that or not is another matter
Perfect for the side of a bus ?
