There’s been plenty of talk on here by the crypto fascists that “thick” people/gammons who don’t understand the issues shouldn’t be allowed to vote.
Paraphrasing? Plenty of people are quite rightly commenting that expecting people to understand complex issues and make a decision is a bad idea.
On top of that the complete misunderstanding of some of the basic concepts when people are asked about brexit is startling and reinforces how much of a bad idea the referendum was.
The "we voted to leave why have we not left" ones baffle me somedays can't be bothered to understand any of the detail just want to complain.
Then you have actual mp's who are paid to make these decisions who have less than a basic grasp on the facts, followed by making either deliberately false statements or getting it massively wrong despite having budget for researchers and more time than most to read up.
I'll accept there are some people ranting but that unfortunately is the human race.
So mike how should we make our decisions if we can't trust the people or our MPs?
Referendums in Switzerland seem to work but that seems lost on those angry at the Brexit result.And those wanting a second referendum really only want one because they want a different outcome,not because they want more direct democracy.And I'm tired of MPs banging on about "none of my constituents voted to make themselves poorer",which is precisely what happened when we voted to join the Common Market-food prices went up year on year to subsidise inefficient farming practices.There was then no referendum on the closer ties with Europe through the various Treaties which the UK signed up to but which other countries held, although we had the regular wranglings with the EU,rebate,not joining Schengen or the Euro etc.The old folk/gammons who can remember this have felt disenfranchised,they voted to join a Common Market,that was it.Once the Euro-establishment was in place it did what all establishments do ,protect and strengthen itself and stifle opposition.Labour/Blair then messed up with the EU expansion accession countries by not putting in the restrictions on migration that Germany and most of the rest of Europe did.No one seems to be doing any real analysyis of why we are where we are and it has as you say just degenerated into ranting.
I thought the "crypto facists" were telling us that none of us were allowed to vote, because we voted to stop voting in 2016, or something like that.
I suppose being called a 'crypto-fascist' makes a change from a 'traitor'...
Referendums in Switzerland seem to work but that seems lost on those angry at the Brexit result
Swiss referendums are often "overturning", or revising, the results of other, recent referendums. To say we can only obey an (old) referendum, without reference to what has since happened, and what people now want, is something freshly made up (or rather dug up from the 1930s) by people who, understandably, fear that the "will of the people" might be moving.
And those wanting a second referendum really only want one because they want a different outcome,not because they want more direct democracy.
Yep hands up I want a second ref and I want to remain in the EU. But crucially and critically in this case I want this to be a referendum on the deal chosen and for that to be put to the people. At this point I challenge any brexit supporter to find me where this deal comes close to matching anything that was promised in the campaign.
Secondly on referendums we have already learned a lot of things - track the cash, watch the cash, register the cash.
Look at ads and who can authorise them, look at the accountability of people and what they are doing.
Hold leaders and speakers to account.
We let the public down with the quality of the debate and the way in which we allowed people to mislead.
nick1962
Member
So mike how should we make our decisions if we can’t trust the people or our MPs?
Referendums in Switzerland seem to work
Well first of all as Ivan Rogers pointed out Switzerland are in a permanent state of negotiation with the EU , they voted to end FOM, but then got kicked out of ERASMUS and them had to go back and ask to join again or it threatened their lucrative higher education & damaged their scientific research.
when we voted to join the Common Market-food prices went up year on year to subsidise inefficient farming practices
This is simply bollox, food prices have never been cheaper, adjusted for inflation. Ironically the Brexit vote has caused then to rise!
although we had the regular wranglings with the EU,rebate,not joining Schengen or the Euro etc
All of which the EU ceded in our favour!
The old folk/gammons who can remember this have felt disenfranchised,they voted to join a Common Market,that was it
The EU has always been clear that it wanted to integrate & harmonise, pooling sovereignty is the trade off for increased benefits in trade, culture, research, security etc etc
it.Once the Euro-establishment was in place it did what all establishments do ,protect and strengthen itself and stifle opposition.
The European parliament is more diverse than our own, they even allow grandstanding charlatans like farage who do not work, just tell lies for their gullible followers back home.
No one seems to be doing any real analysyis of why we are where we are and it has as you say just degenerated into ranting.
It's been pointed out endless times that the benefits of EU membership are not shared by all, the obvious point being that it's the fault of successive UK governments, not the EUs
As for deranged ranting, well you've done a good job of that!
I think the last time I heard "crypto-fascist" was Lister's younger self in Red Dwarf.
Referendums in Switzerland seem to work but that seems lost on those angry at the Brexit result.
1) Referendums in Switzerland have a host of criteria which have to be met, none of which were applied here.
2) They "seem" to work, yes. Have a read of this: https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/take-it-from-the-swiss-the-brexit-referendum-wasnt-legitimate
And those wanting a second referendum really only want one because they want a different outcome,not because they want more direct democracy.
They don't want a different outcome, they want an accurate one rather than working off three year old data.
Turning that about, those opposed to a third referendum are those who know they'd lose and thus "the will of the people" is the final lie they have left.
Personally, I don't really want another vote (though it may be inevitable) and I don't want more direct democracy. I want our representative democracy to do its job, it's not the electorate's place to mandate individual policies in the UK, never has been. If it was then we could disband parliament as it no longer would serve a purpose.
I suppose being called a ‘crypto-fascist’ makes a change from a ‘traitor’…
As opposed to nazi sympathiser, appeaser or just a plain f****** idiot? FWIW I've seen very little abuse on here (even back in the old days) from the brexit side, but plenty recently from the remain brexit deniers. One of the reasons I've come round to the view that we can't dismiss the views of brexit voters is the fact that many remainers barely disguise their condescension and ignorance of the people they are so quick to call gammons or idiots.
It's revealed a very disturbing side to people who I though I agreed with (not on just on here I might add), and I have as much dislike for this as I do the naked racism and ignorance which many brexiters showed in the wake of the vote. They deserve each other to be honest, and in the middle there are a whole bunch of people who are only interested in the issue being resolved through some form of sensible compromise. We'll get nowhere by hurling abuse, and this will only get worse if we carry on as we are. How far do we have to descend before people on both sides come to their senses?
We’ll get nowhere by hurling abuse, and this will only get worse if we carry on as we are. How far do we have to descend before people on both sides come to their senses?
After the votes on Wed night I saw tory brexiters, the likes of farage etc. come on and balme everyone, rant about the will of the people, slag off people - the speech given by the brexit sec was attack after attack, yelling mandates and 17 million people about, saying betrayal etc.
The SNP spokesperson interviewed talked about what brexit would mean to his constituents, what he was trying to achieve and how he wanted to work with the government to get to an outcome that was the least worst possible.
One side here has really lost the plot.
FWIW I’ve seen very little abuse on here (even back in the old days) from the brexit side, but plenty recently from the remain brexit deniers.
and right one cue.... everyone not agreeing with you is in denial.
This is simply bollox, food prices have never been cheaper, adjusted for inflation. Ironically the Brexit vote has caused then to rise!
Not bollox.Food prices in the UK went up after we joined the Common Market as a direct result of joining the Common Market and tariffs were imposed on food from non EU countries.
And those wanting a second referendum really only want one because they want a different outcome,not because they want more direct democracy.
They don’t want a different outcome, they want an accurate one rather than working off three year old data.
At least Mike was honest about it, you persit in denying a most obvious fact 😂
@taxi25 can't manage to quote (bet it's fixed in edit) and can't read properly what was written....
The vote in 2016 does not answer the question currently being asked. It is not an accurate data set for answering the question which is what kind of brexit do you ****ing want.
Not bollox.Food prices in the UK went up after we joined the Common Market as a direct result of joining the Common Market and tariffs were imposed on food from non EU countries.
I bet prices will come down once we accept a free trade shafting from the US or sign a nice deal with Nevis & St Kitts or other big players in world trade
The vote in 2016 does not answer the question currently being asked. It is not an accurate data set for answering the question which is what kind of brexit do you **** want.
Loving your passive aggression 👍
But its you thats hard of understanding. People didn't vote for a deal, or no deal, to advise the government or anything else. They were asked a question, "do you want to leave the EU yes or no" that was it. The reasons why leavers voted the way they did is perhaps only known to themselves but nothing for them has changed !!
A second referendum is being promoted by those, not perhaps unreasonably hoping to overturn the result. If you think it's for any other reason the irony of calling leavers stupid is breathtaking.
"Do you still want to Leave, now you have seen what your politicans have lined up for you", is a perfectly valid question.
I think the answer will be, narrowly, yes, let's Leave, using the Withdrawl Agreement the PM has arrived at. But people should still be asked. And we can then give our answer based on where we are now, not what was promised (suggested, if you like) back in 2016.
In addition, I suspect, after we have left, a further referendum will be required to settle what we are transitioning too… as I don't expect any party/government will be able to settle that by themselves… and the public have never voted on that either.
They were asked a question, “do you want to leave the EU yes or no” that was it.
Yeahbut.. Leaving the EU means you have to replace that relationship with something. In case you have noticed what's happened over the past few months: You can't just 'leave the EU', you have to negotiate what that relationship is going to be afterwards. This is why the referendum question was ludicrous.
Loving your passive aggression 👍
Passive, it's complete frustration with the impasse and inability of people to spot why.
But its you thats hard of understanding. People didn’t vote for a deal, or no deal, to advise the government or anything else. They were asked a question, “do you want to leave the EU yes or no” that was it. The reasons why leavers voted the way they did is perhaps only known to themselves but nothing for them has changed !!
Correct and it was advisory for a really good reason, we stood by the result and honoured it really badly. We have gone through the process, a selection of fine brexiters have gone to Europe dressed as St George to slay dragons and each has come back as nothing more than a naughty schoolboy who just got caught trying to forge his parents signature or copying homework. they still protest how it's all somebody elses fault they failed to deliver on any of the promises that were made.
A second referendum is being promoted by those, not perhaps unreasonably hoping to overturn the result. If you think it’s for any other reason the irony of calling leavers stupid is breathtaking.
It will also give validation to the simple fact that nobody really supports what is being offered to them.
Anyone from the leave side who wants to avoid checking they still have people on side knows they have lost public opinion, they have lost the battle and are close to losing the war. We are back to jingoistic and pathetic lines about subjugation as if the UK will resemble Germany post world wars being humiliated and punished for daring to step out of line.
Simply put if you find 2 brexiters agreeing with each other on something chances are they don't understand the other one.
Remember the mantra,
It's about a democratic decision
as May tries to bully parliament into accepting a deal she consulted none of them on
It's about a democratic decision
as May wanted to avoid involving parliement
It's about a democratic decision
as May shut down options and refused to consult
It's about a democratic decision
as they won't consider people might want a say in the process
Not bollox.Food prices in the UK went up after we joined the Common Market as a direct result of joining the Common Market and tariffs were imposed on food from non EU countries.
I'm sure 40 years ago is still a burning issue in your mind, but now we have 0 tariff deals with most of the developing world, most of which are seasonal to protect EU (including UK)farming industry, it's particularly effective as the tariffs are reduced in southern hemisphere growing season when we can't
You want high food prices, spend a while at WTO tariff levels
The reasons why leavers voted the way they did is perhaps only known to themselves but nothing for them has changed !!
How do you know?
And those wanting a second referendum really only want one because they want a different outcome
That's partly true, but a 2nd ref is the only way to legitimise a sensible outcome. And it's partly because we now have something to vote on. A 2nd ref needs to be on May's deal i.e. a different vote.
This started with a referendum, so we have to proceed with referenda don't we? May keeps saying 'the people want this, that and the other' do we? How do you know? None of that was on the ballot. So if she wants to act in our name she has to ask us what we want again.
And I try very hard not to insult leave voters, I save that for the press, politicians & pundits that sold it.
But it's really really **** hard sometimes
From the euro elections thread
we could learn a lot from Bashar al-Assad and Putin I don’t see their states being bent over and raped by the EU like we do.
Look at Twitter, Facebook, wherever, ^^^ that's not even coming close to what's out there in terms of stupidity.
We’ll get nowhere by hurling abuse
I agree dazh and that is why you should stop doing it. Too.
And those wanting a second referendum really only want one because they want a different outcome
Even if that is the case: If your point of view is that referenda = 'Democracy' then how can you deny that, convenient though it is for remain, it would still be an exercise of the democratic will. What you can't do is drone on about the 'will of the people' & then refuse to have a referendum because you think you will lose.
What you can’t do is drone on about the ‘will of the people’ & then refuse to have a referendum because you think you will lose.
TBH, I think they will jsut carry on doing that, it's way better than admitting the other truth
Referendum every 3 years then?
They were asked a question, “do you want to leave the EU yes or no” that was it.
Correct. At that time we didn't know what form "leaving the EU" would take. Different things were promised to different audiences by different people because (generously) they didn't really know either. And by extension, people then voted for different reasons with different expectations. This is well understood.
Three years on, we now know what brexit looks like. It's an actual document which exists and you can go read and everything. Is it not right and proper to see if this meets with the approval of those who "knew what they were voting for" before going ahead with this?
It's not "having the same vote again", it's a different question. And even if it wasn't, as I said before, we're working with three year old data (and look at what's happening in Parliament currently, we have precedence for asking the same question over and over it seems).
Leave has been crowing about their precious "democracy" for the last three years; this is the very definition of democracy and they're all now shouting against it. I wonder why.
I think a lot of breziters would think that May has not negotiated a good deal and that a second ref with remain or May's deal is a false choice.
Why not May's deal vs no deal?
I think a lot of breziters would think that May has not negotiated a good deal and that a second ref with remain or May’s deal is a false choice.
Why not May’s deal vs no deal?
1) No deal is a ****ing suicidal choice that has been roundly defeated in parliament.
2) No deal is ****ing stupid
But really you asked the government to negotiate you something and you gave them no parameters, no measures, no guidance, they didn't ask for you input and now you want to complain??
Finally this isn't a choice for the 17.8m this is one for the entire population.
Why not May’s deal vs no deal?
Or better still: Why not May’s deal vs no deal vs remain?
Or less cheekily. Why not a number of options from remain to no deal with various degrees of hard to soft brexit in between. At least that would give you an idea of 'whsat the people want'
Good news at last.
Dr Fox has signed a trade deal with (drum roll) Fiji.
Without googling it wtf does Fiji produce that we want?
No possible link 'The Pacific islands deal also comes days after the EU added Fiji to a tax haven blacklist.'
I think a lot of breziters would think that May has not negotiated a good deal
That's the one thing which many remainers and leavers alike can agree on. But it is nonetheless probably the best deal we're likely to get and a better deal than many people predicted (something something project fear something).
Why not May’s deal vs no deal?
Because "no deal" is not an option, it's what happens if we run out of options. The clue is in the bloody name for pete's sake. No-one would actively choose "no deal" unless they were either corrupt or stupid.
And I'm not saying "all leavers are stupid," but if anyone thinks "no deal" is a good idea and they're not a disaster capitalist, then either they've been completely disengaged from everything that's happened over the last three years, or they are in fact an idiot after all. Sorry.
Without googling it wtf does Fiji produce that we want?
I wouldn't have the Tories or UKIP in GEs.
The referendum has been had , leave won (I voted remain) I just can't get my head around people thinking it's ok to not honour the ref result.
I'm with Cougar. No 2nd ref, parliament should do it's job, accept that Brexit would be a disaster and revoke Article 50. It wouldn't be the first time a "manifesto pledge" has not been kept - or the last.
The old folk/gammons who can remember this have felt disenfranchised,they voted to join a Common Market,that was it.
Erm, I'm old enough to have voted to go in. I've never felt disenfranchised.
The referendum has been had , leave won (I voted remain) I just can’t get my head around people thinking it’s ok to not honour the ref result.
We have, been explained over and over again. Leave won, they have had near on 3 years to take the UK out of the EU, they have made a plan - no you don't like the plan. Tough Shit. Sorry but that is how it is. This is the option to leave it's take it or leave it.
Another very democratic process is going on, it's called parliament - they can't decide if they want to take the deal but have voted to remove no deal as an option - it's been removed by a democratic vote which means in your eyes it can never be taken as an option so it will never be an option until the end of time.
So now after knowing exactly what the process would be and knowing it's was a 2 year negotiation to do the first tiny part of leaving you don't like the answer - well nobody does but that is where we are.
What would you do next?
The referendum has been had , leave won (I voted remain) I just can’t get my head around people thinking it’s ok to not honour the ref result.
It's only a problem because Cameron said he would honour the result. Otherwise a damn near 50/50 split would never have been considered remotely sensible grounds for such a massive change in policy.
He shouldn't have done it, he's a very naughty boy.
So parliament voted to stop no deal and that has to be respected cos democracy.
Leave won the ref but that doesn't have to be respected, doesn't compute Mike
Nb I would respect both votes
What would I do now- I liked the indicative votes idea to find a deal that would pass through parliament.With hindsight it could have been done before A50 but with hindsight this mess could have been stopped many ways.
The referendum has been had , leave won (I voted remain) I just can’t get my head around people thinking it’s ok to not honour the ref result.
Three things:
1) Spending three years (and vast sums of money) attempting to make brexit a reality is honouring the result, even if the ultimate conclusion is that it's not possible to do so without massive self-harm in the timeframe we have.
2) having another referendum doesn't mean the previous one hasn't been honoured. That's how elections work, otherwise the Whigs would still be in government.
3) Page two argument, it was $%^&ing advisory and there is no mandate to "honour" it in the first place.
Four things:
(I voted remain)
4) I'm not sure as I believe you.
Leave won the ref but that doesn’t have to be respected, doesn’t compute Mike
Sorry trying to use leave logic there.....
Nb I would respect both votes
A page back you wanted May's deal vs no deal as an option... that isn't respecting parliament.
What would I do now- I liked the indicative votes idea to find a deal that would pass through parliament.With hindsight it could have been done before A50 but with hindsight this mess could have been stopped many ways.
If that is the case you have to expect that remain could be the outcome
So parliament voted to stop no deal and that has to be respected cos democracy.
Leave won the ref but that doesn’t have to be respected
Parliament voted to stop no deal and that has to be respected cos representative democracy. Parliament makes our legislation, not the electorate.
Leave won the ref but that doesn’t have to be respected because it was an advisory vote.
Also, see my previous comment. It has been respected, way more that it deserved given the allegations of corruption surrounding it.
I don't want May's Deal vs No Deal, I am saying it makes as much sense democratically as Remain vs Mays deal. We voted to leave A50 has been enacted, we are leaving. Remain is no longer an option.
Article 50 Cougar?
Nb I would respect both votes
Things that have been voted against in the last three years:
- keeping EU membership
- being in the Customs Union
- being in EEA
- joining EFTA
- staying in the Single Market
- leaving the EU without a Withdrawal Agreement
- leaving the EU with the Withdrawal agreement
- being still in the EU after March
- having another referendum
Whatever happens, several of those will have to be, er, disrespected, by subsequent events, and, hopefully, votes.