Hold them to account.
I'm winding up all the Brexiters I know who have switched off to whats going on by constantly reminding them of all the shit that is happening, that we said would happen.
I've really upset some people with the "told you sos" and gloating over Dyson 😀 It's glorious, send people one link and their whole ****ing world falls apart.
The trouble is, people in the UK keep looking at the whole European issue through the lens of Brexit. Whatever deal is or isn't done, the Eurozone's crisis is here, now.
Growth and PMI indicators in all three of the major Eurozone economies are at or heading toward decline. Recession looks unavoidable and yet, Draghi and the ECB have only just stopped QE and bank deposit rates are below zero. They are about to enter recession without any of the tools to fight it.
There’s A Good Chance Draghi Sends The Euro Slumping
Brexit is just one cog in the machine. How the whole thing works out is an even greater concern.
Heres a novelty for you. A Tory minister talking some sense. From the Guardian website:
Richard Harrington, the business minister, said this morning he was “delighted” when he read the boss of Airbus branding the UK government’s handling of Brexit a “disgrace”. Speaking to an audience of German industrialists, he said that no deal must be stopped and he was prepared to be sacked for saying so.
"This is a disaster for business and business needs to know where it is, and that doesn’t mean, ‘Oh great, two weeks before we are leaving, now we can rule out crashing out.
I really don’t believe in this idea. I am very happy to be public about it and very happy if the prime minister decides I am not the right person to do the business industry job.
[A no-deal Brexit] would be a total disaster for the economy, I was delighted to read Airbus’s comments this morning because it is telling it like it is."
Harrington, who has previously said that a no-deal Brexit would be “an absolute disaster” and that he would resign if the government opted for one, was speaking at a gathering of German Industry UK at the German industry in London.
Brexit is just one cog in the machine. How the whole thing works out is an even greater concern.
You are absolutely right. Like the battle on both sides the short term view has obscured the long term situation.
"In Cambridge they spy, in Oxford they mess everything up!"
Hah!
Brexit is just one cog in the machine. How the whole thing works out is an even greater concern.
Germany heavily exposed to China slow down, which has come about mostly because of Trumps trade war… Brexit referendum was used as a trial run for "hacking" democracy ready for Trump's election campaign.
You're right, looking at Brexit in isolation isn't useful… but still clear that Brexit is negative not postitive for nearly all of us staying and working in the UK, and Europe more generally. Not the only problem at hand… but still a major problem.
A Tory minister talking some sense.
Yet he still has confidence in the government (as of last week)
I seem to have become obsessed with a daily visit to the BBC HYS comments, I think this may be the best one I have ever seen.
3 hours ago
@ 7. Kaloody
"Who even are airbus? I only fly Ryanair. No great loss. MORE PROJECT FEAR."
.....Good luck everyone!
Which just illustrates, yet again, how our tribal two party system is just fundamentally incapable of dealing with this whole issue
Germany heavily exposed to China slow down, which has come about mostly because of Trumps trade war…
That's not true (the cause bit)... China's economy has been slowing since around 2015. Their success has been built on exporting to 'the West'. Once you reach a certain level you can't grow your share much more and therefore your total volumes remain broadly at the same share which then grows at the same rate as the Western economies. It was always unsustainable.
I've taken to constantly correcting Leave.eu & others of their ilk on Twitter. I had this reply to me today -
https://twitter.com/truckingfridge/status/1088388370022178816
Don’t give the British public an excuse by blaming Cameron, the British voters need to take the responsibility for this decision and accept the consequences of their actions.
British voters are not responsible in the slightest. Yes, you have to question what is going through the minds of some, but that is exactly the reason you do not take one of the most complex political issues of recent times, and throw it out to the general public for them to decide upon.
The vast majority of which still do not understand Brexit now, despite it being in the headlines for the past 2 years. I don't understand it. I understand what's in the media. And I understand we're in a mess. But I'm not going to pretend to have any understanding at all of the actual task in hand. It's all soundbites, strength and stability, bloody immigrants, backstops, disaster, No deal is better than a Bad Deal... None of it really means anything unless the problem is understood right through, and very few people have that understanding.
It's kind of like Einstein theorising on relativity, before throwing a vote out to the general public asking whether we should go ahead with it.
Boris only got 10k for his speech at JCB. They created the perfect shit storm and milking it to the max.
Looks like THM is back....
For anyone wondering why sterling's strengthened today, Draghi has just had to pledge to keep EUR interest rates wehre they are, at record lows, until at least the summer.
PrinceJohn
Member
I’ve taken to constantly correcting Leave.eu & others of their ilk on Twitter. I had this reply to me today –
pah thats nothing, I had ths one today whilst 'discussing' it with some brexshitters, talk of the damage to UK science took us here.........
Boris only got 10k for his speech at JCB
Pretty impressive getting them to pay for his PM job interview. If only he was half so competent when serving the country rather than himself. He did get 30k for some other speech in December though so I guess JCB got a discount due to the dual purpose.
Looks like THM is back
Excellent. Since I would love to be reassured that the grown ups have it all in hand.
Kimbers, I'm assuming you are winding them up, which is cruel. Please carry on.
In some ways its hard to wind them up, they get angry about things I literally cant comprehend (vaccines for example)
Brexit is just part of their wider religion
I just cant stop picking at the scab though
its just so funny
He can spend as much time as he likes writing his memoirs, the last word on him will always remain with our nations sage, Danny Dyer….
I do hope that ends up on the dust cover along with the other "endorsements".
the British voters need to take the responsibility for this decision and accept the consequences of their actions
Presumably the 52% are OK with that. There are another 48% who have to accept the actions of others.
British voters are not responsible in the slightest. Yes, you have to question what is going through the minds of some, but that is exactly the reason you do not take one of the most complex political issues of recent times, and throw it out to the general public for them to decide upon.
The vast majority of which still do not understand Brexit now, despite it being in the headlines for the past 2 years. I don’t understand it. I understand what’s in the media. And I understand we’re in a mess. But I’m not going to pretend to have any understanding at all of the actual task in hand. It’s all soundbites, strength and stability, bloody immigrants, backstops, disaster, No deal is better than a Bad Deal… None of it really means anything unless the problem is understood right through, and very few people have that understanding
I wholeheartedly disagree, other countries do referendums well. The British public need to be treated like adults and be made to understand that they have to develop critical thinking skills in response to their stupidity.
It is up to the public to identify lies and propaganda and as Eric Bigger once said - "The truth seems to be that propaganda on its own cannot force its way into unwilling minds; neither can it inculcate something wholly new; nor can it keep people persuaded once they have ceased to believe. It penetrates only into minds already open, and rather than instill opinion it articulates and justifies opinions already present in the minds of its recipients. The gifted propagandist brings to a boil ideas and passions already simmering in the minds of his hearers. he echoes their innermost feelings. Where opinion is not coerced, people can be made to believe only in what they already "know.""
Presumably the 52% are OK with that. There are another 48% who have to accept the actions of others.
Do you think it's fair on Europeans, that we stay after the shit we've pulled? We will just wreck the direction they want to take the EU.
Der Spiegel went off on one about this, basically they want us to **** off until we've changed.
It's over, especially after Jeremy failed to support another referendum. Start planning on how to survive the fallout.
We'll get blocked from WTO membership....they conveniently forget that, just like everyone forgets that a delay to article 50 will be blocked.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that under WTO rules the recipient can suggest a tariff, but that level has to be accepted by the other members.
If that's right, then your chap is half right, everyone does have to play by the same rules, but he's wrong in that the recipient sets the tariff.
I worry about the last bit. We know that standards are going to slip, so the goods will be shoddier. That might make them cheaper than they could be, or it could just make the UK the cash cow for dumping cheap shit.
I wholeheartedly disagree, other countries do referendums well.
I'm sure we can too, when they're carried out in the right circumstances and the right way.
There is not a nation on earth that does not fall for propaganda in some way. In some respects, with so much information, it's more difficult now than ever. We cannot all be experts in every field, and so we delegate tasks to those with the knowledge, and put some amount of trust that in what they're telling us, is correct.
And with differing opinions, and a countless number of people stating their opinion or analysis to be correct, despite all of them being wildly different, it just becomes noise. It's not even Propaganda anymore. Any expertise is watered down to practically nothing, and you have everyone chucking in to the pot every last piece of food they own, just so the meal can be cooked.
Managed correctly from the top, it should be easy and painless decisions at the bottom. If other countries are doing it better, it's because they're managing it better. Put people in a position where it's easy to fail, many will fail. Put them in a position where it's easy to succeed, many will do just that. Any successful business knows this, because it's imperative they take this approach towards both their staff, and their product.
"... still have to meet our standards too."
And what about the other way? Anything we sell will have to meet the standards required by the other countries too. At the moment we get that via EU certification, which we lose if we leave. How on Earth are we going to prove our goods are safe post-brexit?
We cannot all be experts in every field, and so we delegate tasks to those with the knowledge, and put some amount of trust that in what they’re telling us, is correct.
Don't be silly. Britain has had enough of experts, remember.
I worry about the last bit. We know that standards are going to slip, so the goods will be shoddier. That might make them cheaper than they could be, or it could just make the UK the cash cow for dumping cheap shit.
Its no coincidence that all the Brexiteers are also ultra free-marketeers. They see a capitalist utopia of a Britain free of regulation completely. It'll be a race to the bottom as they jettison all the safeguards EU regulations have given us previously
They know that any free trade deal with the US will come with an insistence that we drop all environmental, argricultural and animal welfare standards, so its hello GM crops, chlorine washed chicken and hormone injected beef. Any other trade deals will involve similar trade offs
We're ****ed basically. We're all about to get completely rinsed by these Ayn Rand-worshipping profiteers
ultra free-marketeers.
basically anarchists, if you want give them their proper name..
If I were to give them their proper name it'd get caught in the swear filter.
basically anarchists
Only a very specialist subflavour. Overall they arent that keen on getting rid of hierarchies and they generally want to keep certain parts of the state, namely those bits which will protect them and issues laws which will get rid of tedious things like trade unions.
basically anarchists
I think Ken MacLeod would agree that Anarcho Capitalists is a better description. Anarchists, I think, just want a functioning society without rules so that they can, ultimately, make a better society for all. This lot seem to want to forment that change with the express purpose of making money for themselves and screw the rest of the population.
Beeb looking at setting up a presence in Belgium if there is a No Deal - bet the Brexies will love that!
We cannot all be experts in every field, and so we delegate tasks to those with the knowledge, and put some amount of trust that in what they’re telling us, is correct.
One of our problems is that our politicians set themselves up as experts, especially ministers who have been parachuted into posts they know nothing about.
If you listen to some of the leading Tory Brexiteers you soon realise that not only are they not experts on anything at all, you start to wonder how they actually manage to get dressed and tie their shoe laces to get out of the house in the morning. perhaps they're nanny helps
We cannot all be experts in every field, and so we delegate tasks to those with the knowledge
Critical thinking skills don't mean being an expert, it means being able to discern what the best sources, evaluating the arguments of those experts and making a decision on the factually based sources that you have read.
Something that a lot of Brits don't do.
One of our problems is that our politicians set themselves up as experts, especially ministers who have been parachuted into posts they know nothing about.
Which is why they should be skilled listeners and be able to evaluate the information they are receiving from trusted senior civil servants.
The basic arrangement is something along the lines of: look, if we mess this up, minister, you will carry the can politically and we will carry the can organisationally as we actually have to sort it out. So let's work together, please?
Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working at the moment.
its all about dogma
fk all to do with listening to experts
John McDonnell has given a brilliant (in my opinion) interview to BBC HARDtalk … mostly on Brexit … will post a link in the morning.
from ^^^^ think original poster forget to add the "stockpiling" impact comment
John McDonnell has given a brilliant (in my opinion) interview to BBC HARDtalk … mostly on Brexit … will post a link in the morning.
Not surprised, I think he is very good and comes across very well (relaxed, factual and answers questions - well more than most MPs anyway)
But then we don't want to have anything to do with a Marxist.
iPlayer link…
HARDtalk, John McDonnell - Labour Shadow Chancellor, UK: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0c0gzzh