One second:
A post-Brexit economy.
Brexit should be used as an opportunity to move towards a system in which capital is embedded in national economies rather than constantly moving around the globe. Alongside reducing capital mobility and the size of our finance sector, this should involve a radical programme to transform ownership and investment. At the local level, inspiration should come from the experiments in community wealth building conducted by councils such as Preston. At the national level, any socialist government must consider radical propositions to transform ownership and investment – through, for example, the creation of national and regional investment banks, or a Meidner Plan for the UK.Whilst state intervention as a passive shareholder is perfectly permissible under EU law, interfering with capital mobility by directing capital through industrial policy, public loans, and strategic investment, is not. Any attempt to limit capital flows, either through direct restrictions on capital movement, or through a prohibitive tax on financial transactions triggered during a crisis, would also be interpreted as an infringement of the four freedoms. What’s more, the implementation of EU law depends upon EU jurisprudence – international law, we must remember, is socially constructed and therefore strongly influenced by existing power relations. The aforementioned comments of EU negotiators to the Times suggest that there would be strong resistance from Brussels to a project of socialist transformation in the UK.
Leaving the EU could provide the left with an opportunity to build an economy that does not rely on capital extracted from the rest of the world to ensure growth and prosperity. If the UK could build such an economy outside of Europe, it would act as a beacon of hope to countries like Greece and Italy, currently struggling under the weight of the EU’s neoliberal technocracy. The British left has the opportunity to create a significant dent in the armour of financial capital by showing, once and for all, that there is an alternative. We must seize it.
So this is just Jezza’s build a socialist paradise fantasy?
Rone in the event of a no deal the product I sell will be subjected to a 30% tariff. That is down to brexit and nothing else the tories have done.
Brexit already put 30% on your imports by crashing the pound, you're still in business, it's not automatically the final nail in your coffin and on the flip side it will (again) do so to your competitors as well so at least it's not just you so they impact should be spread with luck.
That’s what a left-wing Government is for.`
I take it you know what left wing government actually looks like? Venezuela under Chavez for instance? Cuba under the Castros? FARC held Columbia, arguably the DDR, USSR various satellite states, China...
I wouldn't be thinking the left is a bastion of your rights just because you like the colour of their ties.
That’s what a left-wing Government is for
Forget left and right, that's just speaking like little school yard children.
We need a sensible and pragmatic government.
Right so not what any of the groups are proposing, relies on prolonged socialist governments and long term planning, much of which requires a decent amount of working capital for any government to start with. Forgive me for not adding that to a list of positive brexit versions as it fails on step one for not dealing with the impacts in the first 1-5 years. Chances of implementing those plans if the UK enters a recession?
See, that kind of idea is great. But while the rest of the world* is neo-liberal capitalist, even if the idea is possible to do, do you think they'll let us do it, or do you think they'll use their power to ensure the experiment fails? As a success would bring their entire system crashing down, and they won't let that happen.
*more or less.
It's an ideological standpoint not an economic argument based on the idea that the EU is a free market enterprise so will support capital - but if you want full state socialism, taking control of all capital the EUs rules on competition and state aid would not allow
The thing is that degree of State Socialism is not what anyone is suggesting. The Labour Party is talking about re-nationalising rail and utilities which is allowable under EU state aid rules (national infrastructure) and other stuff about running regional investment banks etc which is also allowed. Not only are these things allowed they are done all across Europe already.
Edit - I've just read the second post with the big quote. There isn't anything in the Preston model that is not deliverable within the current EU rules
Edit - the UK made a decision to go increasingly full market since the early 80s not because the EU forces it but because of the ideological approach of successive governments. It's just another version of blaming the EU for domestic decision making
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06spmsm
Simple vid from Ms Blakeley.
Yes it's an ideological stand point.
But that's the only way out of our current situation - long term.
Brexit already put 30% on your imports by crashing the pound, you’re still in business
Are you seriously suggesting that one 30% rise didn't hurt, so another won't hurt either? Flippin eck.
Also, his raw materials may have gone up by 30%, but his operating costs didn't. And of course you surely know that sales aren't directly proportional to price. For example now if his product is the same price as his competitor he might get an equal share of the sale, but a 30% price hike with no other differentiator could remove almost all of his business as most people might decide it's too expensive. Pricing strategy is very complicated. And of course, normally raising prices might reduce sales but the extra income might offset that. Except in this case he doesn't get to see the extra income, the government pockets it.
It doesn't sound like you've thought this through much.
I take it you know what left wing government actually looks like? Venezuela under Chavez for instance? Cuba under the Castros? FARC held Columbia, arguably the DDR, USSR various satellite states, China…
Don't you consider the Nordics to be left wing?
Rone is this like where you tried to tell us that the EU prevented us from collective bargaining & going on strike?
Because, once again...
interfering with capital mobility by directing capital through industrial policy, public loans, and strategic investment, is not.
Is demonstrably false & shows either ignorance or wilfull misrepresentation.
If you want to argue this with me, please do....
Nothing in that list that couldn't be achieved from within the EU, every point there requires (substantial) investment from government, something that is so much less likely with a weaker economy post brexit.
I take it you know what left wing government actually looks like? Venezuela under Chavez for instance?
Fed up of dealing with that one .
Venezuela was an economy that relied heavily on the price of oil and has a large private ownership. It's downturn constantly gets blamed on socialism especially through the right-wing press when it has a market based economy.
But I'm not an expert on that...
Remember how we failed pretty hard in 2008?
That's closer to home for me.
I'm with Molgrips - it's pretty facile to make an equivalence between left wing and totalitarian state communism
Rone is this like where you tried to tell us that the EU prevented us from collective bargaining & going on strike?
Not me. Don't know what you're talking about. Apologies if I've forgotten.
Is demonstrably false & shows either ignorance or wilfull misrepresentation.
If you want to argue this with me, please do
I suggest you put your point to Grace.
Nothing in that list that couldn’t be achieved from within the EU, every point there requires (substantial) investment from government, something that is so much less likely with a weaker economy post brexit.
Why couldn't we do that by issuing our own money into the economy?
As long as the resources/employment are there to take up the slack , MMT says government spending doesn't need to be restricted by the size of the deficit.
I suggest you put your point to Grace.
I suggest you answer the questions.
It might not have been you TBF, but it was equally false as implying that EU state aid rules don't allow capital investment, JLR in Slovakia being recent please in point.
They do say that you must not favour one company over another and encourage you states to invest in the entire sector, which is exactly the type of investment she's talking about.
Direct state aid and state ownership is allowable in all sorts of circumstances - nationally important infrastructure (Inc rail and energy), regional development, emergency support all sorts of stuff
I suggest you answer the questions
That's ridiculous. I made it clear they're not my words just as on here people use forecasts (not modelled by themselves) that it's all a disaster already - as fact.
I’d quite like Grace to plot a quick graph of how income per capita would evolve during her revolution. If it doesn’t start with a gopping great downward curve then she can’t do economics or maths.
As somebody who has never voted or showed interest before in this pantomime, if it ever goes to another vote or option I'm voting leave. The sheer incompetence and disregard for the salary payers has left me with little faith or trust in our so-called government. Time for a reform in the day care center.
That’s ridiculous. I made it clear they’re not my words just as on here people use forecasts (not modelled by themselves) that it’s all a disaster already – as fact.
What you have not done is supplied a forecast or anything close to it, it's not something that can be costed it's not in the same category of plan/analysis.
The sheer incompetence and disregard for the salary payers has left me with little faith or trust in our so-called government. Time for a reform in the day care centre.
Given the mess of random contradictory ideas that was the aspirations/hopes/threats of the leave campaign they have delivered exactly what was promised.
As somebody who has never voted or showed interest before in this pantomime, if it ever goes to another vote or option I’m voting leave. The sheer incompetence and disregard for the salary payers has left me with little faith or trust in our so-called government
Eh!? Why vote to give the government more power then?
We had a civil war 400 years ago, but by and large it’s been quiet since. Half the countries in Europe haven’t existed for 400 years
About sums up the English ignorance of the history of the UK, the UK in its current form is less than 100 years old.
Time for a reform in the day care center.
How do you think Brexit will help?
We had a civil war 400 years ago,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles
What do you call this civil war?
I take it you know what left wing government actually looks like? Venezuela under Chavez for instance? Cuba under the Castros?
Silly examples that have nothing to do with the UK. I take it you know nothing about what preceded Chavez and Castro.
Can we guess how many trade deals Fox has signed?
Dr Fox?
Can we guess how many trade deals Fox has signed?
I’m guessing zero, and even if the answer isn’t ‘zero’ I will wager that they are of the ilk of selling sand to Libya.
Liam Fox is a lucky man. If Grayling wasn’t there as Alpha Tosser, he would be shown to be 99% as incompetent and untruthful.
Alongside reducing capital mobility
Oh good… once we've made it harder for goods to move, and for people to move, and for services to move… let's also make it harder for capital to move.
"Britain First".
Protectionist isolationist bollocks.
As somebody who has never voted or showed interest before in this pantomime, if it ever goes to another vote or option I’m voting leave. The sheer incompetence and disregard for the salary payers has left me with little faith or trust in our so-called government
Umm. Power of reasoning is not great here.
We, ive yet to hear a compelling argument for leaving, so no I have not changed my mind! 😉
Oh look - more lies from Boris the Brexit poster boy:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46926119
'Mr Johnson's spokesman declined to comment' 🙂
We, ive yet to hear a compelling argument for leaving, so no I have not changed my mind!
You won’t.
There aren’t any.
It is a self-inflicted abomination and all the frantic attempts to rebadge a racist/xenophobic/envious tantrum are just glitter on a turd.
There is a little corner of me that thinks “actually **** the Leavers, give them their Brexit and all the pain that it will bring”.
Unlike the Leavers, though, I don’t wish to harm my own or my children’s future just to spite someone else in the hope it will hurt them more.
if you dont believe the abject stupidity of some then watch this
she says she was only trying to put a positive spin on it...the daft cow
not sure if it was covered may has gone back to the EU with the exact same st of demands....how in christs name does that work....is it an if i ask enough times they will pity me and go "ok then"
She's a sack of waxy shit that's been left too close to a radiator.
Are you seriously suggesting that one 30% rise didn’t hurt
Not at all, but hurting isn't the same as sure fire death. Don't get me wrong the first 30% hurt me like hell, not least as it was similarly timed to a dollar slide for the Euro and my product is euro bought product of a dollar traded commodity. My point, poorly made, is as much as it's going to be rubbish it isn't actually going to be the end of the world.
Re the various responses about my choice of left wing governments sorry if my point was poorly made. Economic impacts or otherwise aside, my point is left isn't the saviour of all that's good in terms of your human rights. Norway (and the Nordics in general would be good examples of states which do advance your personal well-being but I'd argue that's not through left wing benevolence but hard capitalism -I'd also argue that austerity really isn't a right wing policy at all as it really doesn't fit with a capitalist gdp growth led agenda but that one at least is a point for another thread or a pm, I'll pick up the Nordics in brief below)
They might sing to a different tune but it's the self same song. History teaches us 1 thing, government is rarely good for the governed. (And imho it's only ever good as a by product)
the UK in its current form is less than 100 years old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles
What do you call this civil war?
I'm going to lump these together on the basis i assume they're about much they same thing (sorry if they're not). The partition of Ireland from it's 19th century status as part of the UK and the subsequent persecution of Catholics in NI resulting in the troubles really isn't full scale nation changing turmoil, in the same way scottish independence isn't either. It's localised dissent which is by and large dealt with very badly but it's not widespread political upheaval on the scale of say the Spanish civil war, the French Revolution, the wars of unification in Italy or Germany or the collapse of the monarchy of the Netherlands. (Edit a better comparison for the fracturing of a state would be Yugoslavia in the 90s.) These are events which have changed wholesale the fabric and social structure of complete nations. We simply haven't had that sort of upheaval. We have had various localised problems (and if you're going to get picky over the "form" of the UK you could comfortably suggest we've only had our current form since 97 and the hand over of Hong Kong, why go back 100 years) such as the partition of Ireland and the Manx rebellion. They're hugely important in British history but they're not really defining in the way the war of the roses was. I'd imagine (feel free to correct me if you've any even tenuous info) that unless you lived (or were posted) in the directly effected areas you'd not have known either of those was happening (edit: other than as news paper stories). The same isn't true of the civil war or glorious revolution here, the civil war in Spain, the collapse of Napoleonic France, the unification of Germany, the pre ww1 revolutions/uprisings in Russian eastern Europe. It's a long list but we in the UK are in a small number that haven't seen complete social and political change in the course of a few '00 years.
There's been significant incremental change over the years of course, universal sufferage, women to own land the formation of a national army and police force, the NHS, the collapse of the liberal party but nothing in the scale of nationwide civil action that the rest of Europe has seen.
Re Norway/Nordics being left wing.
Not really no, i think the Nordics are largely benevolent [s]right wing[/s](edit right of centre) governance. I don't believe that anything they have done as governments has been soley for the benefit of the "persons of society" first and any economic benefit second. I think the reduced working hours are intended to improve employment, the increased basic wage to ensure and raise disposable income and create greater tax returns and profitability for business. To that extent I'm truly cynical I'm afraid and that's partly personal outlook: you don't get that many millionaires by accident.
latest Yougov poll
Remain: 48
Leave: 38
Would not vote: 6
Don't know: 7
Skipped: 1
equates to a 12 point lead if you exclude non voters and undecided 56 - 44
As somebody who has never voted or showed interest before in this pantomime, if it ever goes to another vote or option I’m voting leave.
Might I respectfully suggest that you address the former before concluding the latter?
The sheer incompetence and disregard for the salary payers has left me with little faith or trust in our so-called government.
So your response is to want to hand them absolute power?
My point, poorly made, is as much as it’s going to be rubbish it isn’t actually going to be the end of the world.
Ok so whenever it's rubbish people lose jobs and businesses. What's going to happen if unemployment hits 10%? And our GDP slides 6%? The world won't end but things will be very very shit. Not sure your point really.
Not sure your point really
That this is just as ridiculous and hyperbolic as suggesting we'll all be better off on brexit day +1.
rather than waiting to go out of business due to a no deal should I just get on with it?
Ok so whenever it’s rubbish people lose jobs and businesses. What’s going to happen if unemployment hits 10%? And our GDP slides 6%? The world won’t end but things will be very very shit. Not sure your point really.
It doesn’t end but it does end up getting pretty rough, rememember “giz us a job”.
It may be bad now but that was a shit time and no deal will be shit.