but at least the Labour party would go down on a good principal eh
I think that is part of what the "moderates" hope for. If Labour saved the tories and got wiped out as a result they could then drag the party back rightwards. Best to skip over last time that happened we ended up with all the people feeling abandoned and voting for a change whatever that ends up being.
Binners - I'm not exactly happy with that move either.
I think that is part of what the “moderates” hope for.
This meme that people who don't want Brexit (Tory policy) are helping the Tories by saying so, is getting old.
Corbyn does not hold a balance of power or indeed any power
Really? So May can get any version of her deal through without Labour?
There are effectively three major parties at Westminster when it comes to Brexit negotiations. May's Tories, the ERG Tories, and Labour.
It's true that Corbyn should recognise that he doesn't have any power to remove the government - that should be patently obvious by now. He isn't getting his election any time soon.
But he has the potential for significant influence over Brexit negotiations for the practical reason that the ERG will vote down pretty much everything. The only way to get a deal through the Commons is via cross-party negotiation.
If he comes out in favour of another ref then half his frontbench quits and half his party votes against
Over 70% of the party support a second ref, thankfully he democratised the party and is listening to them....
Which of his front bench have stated they will quit if he supports a second ref?
is for the hard of thinking only.
Lucky people aint saying that then isnt it?
Rather inanely regurgitating the latest right wing attack memes on Corbyn and co helps the maybot and co get off the hook.
He should have opposed the triggering of A50 without a thorough risk identification and mitigation plan being undertaken so it was clear what needed to be done and the timescales and costs associated with that.
Unfortunately he was there calling for Article 50 to be triggered the day of the Referendum result...
Which of his front bench have stated they will quit if he supports a second ref?
Perhaps he could get back some of his front benchers that he sacked for supporting a referendum.
Rather inanely regurgitating the latest right wing attack memes
Do the right wing attack memes include calling for A50 to be extended or revoked? Or calling for a referendum on whether we still want to press on with Brexit?
It’s true that Corbyn should recognise that he doesn’t have any power to remove the government – that should be patently obvious by now. He isn’t getting his election any time soon.
Tom Watson was on Newsnight last night saying, they said they try, and they've tried. They haven't decided what they are doing next (apart from putting down more red lines).
If Labour had opposed Brexit, as it should have done, how many non-gammon Tory voters out there would switch to Labour?
With Corbyn in charge, very few. Because thanks to rhetoric like yours binners, they all think he's a rabid commie (which is far from true) and/or ineffectual.
You oversimplify politics greatly. He's boxed in, that's the reality, so I really think there's not a lot he can do. Maybe a truly great statesman could find a way out, but they're in short supply recently.
His refusal to engage in talks with the government
Whilst you have been engaging in a nice primary school activity of finding some photos did you happen to notice the SNP have also decided it isnt worth talking with the Maybot now since its clear any discussion is a waste of time until she shows signs of actually being able to compromise?
Surely at some point very soon they need a Commons vote with two choices; postpone a50 (for a minimum of 1 year) or exit with no deal. There's no chance any sort of exit deal with get voted through now so all the current BS that just keeps us bumbling along is pointless.
Assuming the postpone a50 vote passes then, if no new deal emerges that gets passed then it's followed by another vote after 1 year which two choices; Leave with no deal or hold a 2nd referendum (referendum options are either Leave with no deal or Remain, as by then we'll know our government is incapable of negotiating an exit deal which has Commons support)
You oversimplify politics greatly.
It's simple. Corbyn wants Brexit. Lot of other complications abound, but on this one topic, it's simple really. Now, can he ever put that to one side and allow the party to democratically set policy in this area? It doesn't look like it.
85% of Labour party membership favour value 2nd ref. PLP is far less minded this way
Actually now I've calmed down a bit (I'm not normally an argumentative person - another reason to dislike Brexit) I think the nexts few weeks will make or break Corbyn. If he ****s up the opportunity that the anti-May deal vote presented the party membership will not forgive him. No matter what people think about Corbyn's principles - what worries me is that he seems to be have a naivety about how the political game works
To be fair to Corbs he has refused to discuss with TM until she rules out a no-deal.
Either he's saying that cos he's aware of what damage it'll do, or he's saying it so he can run the clock down so that we leave with no-deal...
to notice the SNP have also decided it isnt worth talking with the Maybot now since its clear any discussion is a waste of time until she shows signs of actually being able to compromise?
Though it could be argued that deciding that on the basis of a meeting as opposed to an ultimatum at least makes it look like they were prepared to try. If Labour engage with discussions, then come out and say TM is intransigent, then the pressure is back on her.
Another argument is that Theresa May doesn't particularly need the SNP. They, like the LibDems, are a minor party. Any power/influence lies with Jeremy Corbyn, but if he continues to exercise it in a confrontational way - no-confidence votes, ultimatums - then it plays into the hands of those who want obstruction and delay to tip us into no-deal. Whether or not JC is one of those, I wouldn't like to judge.
Those led by donkeys people are brilliant.
There's been too many seminars and not enough action.
If I may intrude into the discussion about the uselessness of, on the one side Tweedledee and on the other, Tweedledum...
I’ve lately noticed an outstanding political interviewer in amongst all the flack.
Step forward Adam Boulton, formerly “That fat chap always outside number ten” (business genius Alan Sugar).
His “All Out Politics” on Sky is well worth a look.
Unlike the typical BBC method which always seems to descend into a shouty match of ‘who’s got the loudest interruption’, he seems to just elide his questions quietly into the gaps of his interviewees’ responses and thereby getting them to answer his questions rather than just encouraging more stonewalling.
Softly softly catchee monkey.
Runner up - Tony Robinson.
OK. Carry on.
Corbyn May Corbyn May Corbym May Corbyn May Corbyn May
no one want's to blink first on FOM, the Maybot would break the deadlock with the labour party onside and they will help her vote through Norway++ with the ERG left out in the cold, but she needs to shift the blame for FOM onto labour, come the next ge all the immigrants are labours fault.
did you happen to notice the SNP have also decided it isnt worth talking with the Maybot now
That was only an hour ago, wasn't it? And she is insisting that a referendum and change of exit date is put "back in the table" as well, as did Cable. Lucas is over there now, presumably making the same point.
Corbyn is making a speech at 11. I expect it'll be as worthwhile as Mays last night. I'm sure he'll just reiterate his position and keep painting himself further into that corner. Utterly pointless.
The one thing I do hope for, in the absense of any worthwhile content, is that he tones down the shoutyness level. Its really starting to grate.
Looks like Gove has been sent out to by-pass the labour 'leadership' and have a chat with the MP's.
At least he’ll keep your vote @Kerley & @tjagain… but I’m done with him
He certainly will. Brexit or not, what the Labour party currently stands for and what it would do if in power (compared to the Tories) will get my vote every time. Who are you voting for that will not keep the tories in power then? (as assuming you don't want tories in power)
Yes Corbyn is not a great leader and yes somebody else could have done a better job over the last year but helping the tories stay in by throwing a strop about it is a little immature.
I'm not voting for a pro Brexit government to remove a pro Brexit government. If I hear "80% of people voted for a party that…" never again, it'll be too soon. One thing UKIP have taught us is that the course of the country can be changed by voting for the party whose policies you agree with, even if they are not one of the big two. From now on, I'll vote to show support for policies I agree with.
He is not in power so can do nothing – which is exactly why he is continue to harp on about an election.
Look at what's going on, being in power isn't in any way a solution to that problem. May is in power but can't command enough support. If Corbyn was in power, without support from the opposition benches he could achieve nothing. There is no majority in any party in parliament large enough to deliver any solution to this without cross bench leadership support.
Corbyn's policy is to not agree with the government, they could declare him king of the world, hand him a withdrawal agreement that meets everyone of his impossible unquantifyable tests and he'd still whip his party to vote against it.
Want to blame the Tories? Cameron got us into this mess. May (thankfully given the other options) has tried to steer us through it, albeit like a blind woman at the wheel but at least with some conceptof a destination if not a route. Tory infighting is fairly representative (though not in numbers) of exactly what The Public think and is as much if not more to blame than the ukip vote, people don't agree, they don't want the same thing but they very certainly wasn't what they want and won't be happy without exactly that.
The Tory party cannot and will not be united in this and will not respect the party whip. The Labour party cannot and will not be united about this but unlike the Tory party will at least act more (though not completely) in line with their party whip if needed.
Corbyn is largely to blame because he's not doing his job. The job of leader of the opposition isn't too agitate for an election (especially not one no-one wants or needs) it's to provide a viable alternative to the ideas of government, to hold the government to account not ransom (though you'd need demands for that) and ultimately to ensure the governance of the country is conducted in the national interest not the interest of a small minority. He's doing none of this things, quite the opposite in the later instance.
So yes, he's to blame by having a policy of deliberately making the job of government impossible at the point in time it's most needed, not providing any alternative whipping one way then shouting The other. The opposition is there to make the government's life difficult, even handed and fair and he's wilfully failed in that the hope he can be king of the shit heap when this is all finished.
The Tories threw us off the sure, but jezza should be helping us to shore and instead he won't even tell us which direction to swim.
Looks like Gove has been sent out to by-pass the labour ‘leadership’ and have a chat with the MP’s.
That is the logical next step for May. A coalition of cross party soft-brexiteers combined are possibly enough to win. Should that group start to coalesce within Labour then Corbyn really won't have any meaningful power. Of course TM will really be stepping over her red lines for that one.
Interesting times. Are we seeing the first ripples of the break-up of both of our main political parties, and a future of broad coalition government?
... to continue with posting of my internal dialogue which I'm find therapeutic...
If Corbyn did get too close to any final deal it would allow May to spread the blame. Whatever the outcome there will be a large number of pissed off people. LibDems were wiped out by getting too close to the Tories in Govt - I imagine Labour and SNP will be wary
Also,Brexit aside, the current Tory regime is pretty hateful and any progressive party, nevermind a left wing led Labour party needs to be cautious.
Gove as the emissary of peace - it is the end of days I tell you.
I'm off to do some yoga and pretend it's not happening like the snowflake I am
LibDems were wiped out by getting too close to the Tories in Govt
Fair point.
And look what happened to Labour after standing with the Tories during the Scottish Indy ref.
I'd argue that could also be a good reason for having clear water between Labour and Tory policies on Brexit as well… rather than mirroring it, but throwing in the odd "jobs first" caveat.
Interesting times. Are we seeing the first ripples of the break-up of both of our main political parties, and a future of broad coalition government?
I, for one, dearly hope so.
Voting Labour would be suicide
Of course TM will really be stepping over her red lines for that one.
I think that May surely must be looking for a way out by now from her frankly stupid red lines. Surely the logical way out - as its the only thing that can possibly command a parliamentary majority - is a soft Brexit which would definitely involve staying in the customs union, and probably the single market. So she could consult with the 'opposition' and then say 'this is the only deal that they will accept, so will pass'.
The gammons will go mental, but most of them will do that anyway short of recommencing the carpet bombing of Dresden and the bricking up of the channel tunnel
Surely at some point very soon they need a Commons vote with two choices; postpone a50 (for a minimum of 1 year) or exit with no deal.
But we can't do that unilaterally.
The EU27 have made clear they won't support an extension without an obvious opportunity for a change in direction (eg ref 2).
They keep saying they won't renegotiate and further negotiations for a deal aren't reason enough to extend (history tells us all bets on that are off until the very very last moment).
If they're to be believed (I've no more faith in their word than that of our own politicians) the options we have (in what i imagine to be order of paletability for parliament) are May's deal, call it all off, referendum or no deal.
The reality is parliament needs to get a grip, stop seeing red and blue and make a decision even a bloody terrible one. We're in this on our own at this point and hoping for a white knight from the EU to make it easier isn't anymore helpful than the cake and eat it policies of every party in parliament.
Listening to Emma Barnett on Five Live interviewing a 'leading Brexiteer' from Leave Means Leave, it would appear the BBC have finally grown a pair and engaged with calling these cake-and-eat-it idiots out over their flagrent lies
grantway
Member
Voting Labour would be suicide
I'd take that over the hell and suffering this government has caused so many people in its pursuit of attaining Austerity Nirvana.
its definately nothing to do with Brexit but, we were warned
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-35940170/hitachi-boss-i-oppose-brexit
Over 70% of the party support a second ref, thankfully he democratised the party and is listening to them….
He's following party policy to the letter, I think?
I can't believe people are still blaming Corbyn for this mess. The fact is that the Labour Party is a split on this issue as the Tory party, as is the country as a whole, no one is going to ride in on a white horse and save us from this tragedy. Which guess what, was caused by Cameron trying to fix the Tory in-fighting over EU membership. Its amazing to me that given the disasters this Tory government has inflicted on this country (austerity, NHS, education, transport to name 4 things that they are merrily f'in up) that they have created something even worse to distract us away from these things. I'm amazed as they are clearly too incompetent to have planned this, so it must be more by luck than judgement. But no its Corbyn's fault, sorry, my mistake (doffs cap, grovels, crawls away).
Two phrases that have me ready to brick the TV:
"80% of people voted for a party that..."
and
"We agreed at conference"
I read this thread with interest as it's good to see differing viewpoints (although obviously **** Brexit) but I really don't know how people can persist with this "Corbyn is a Brexiteer" viewpoint.
He has criticisms of the EU, sure. But he also called last night for "no deal" to be ruled out. That's not the actions of a hardline Brexiteer.
It also seems to be sowing further seeds of unity - the SNP have come out and publicly supported the same position. No, it's not committing to a "People's Vote" but it's quite clearly leaving two options on the table - some sort of Deal or Rescind A50. May's Deal has been binned off and there is very little time left to renegotiate, assuming May shifts on her red lines.
I'm not sure how you can say he isn't uniting the opposition or holding the government to account. There is clear evidence that he is: biggest defeat in history, Labour's six tests for the Brexit deal.
There is still some political manouevring required to keep the heartland Labour leavers onside, but IMO the line is being walked fairly well at the moment.
EDIT:
He’s following party policy to the letter, I think?
Yep, that's my reading of it as well.
I'm with @richmtb
I'll add the "Labour's six tests" nonsense to the TV vs brick inciting phrases as well.
Crikey ... still fighting amongst each others.
I thought I have come back to peace and tranquillity after 5 weeks away.
🙁
They keep saying they won’t renegotiate and further negotiations for a deal aren’t reason enough to extend (history tells us all bets on that are off until the very very last moment).
.... they won't renegotiate until we offer something different in our position.
Reproducing my analogy from a few pages back, we're in the dealership asking for 5 doors, aircon, leather, auto, less than 3 years old and under £10K and they're saying we simply can't have that, and no matter how often we ask the answer is the same.
But if we are prepared to drop the leather and go up to 4 years old.... ah, now we can do something.
The EU would reopen discussions and approve an extension for them to take place if we're prepared to drop some of our red lines.
♻
chewkw
Member
Crikey … still fighting amongst each others.I thought I have come back to peace and tranquillity after 5 weeks away.
you should see whats been happening in parliament
Brexit has divided the country for a generation, & still no one knows what it is!