views from people ‘on the street’ but the TV should be full of them everyday just to remind us wh
Isnt that called gogglebox
And a lot of people (me included) suspect that it would be another win for Leave. If there is one thing that really should be taken from the 2016 referendum it is that you should never ask the public a direct question about something they don’t have a clue about and have not spent more than 2 minutes thinking about.
Though opinion is consistently shifting towards remain by all measuring methods. The key part of any further vote is a clear question, at the moment it's May's deal or Remain if the mad idea of no deal is put to bed.
But next step is Mays deal vs parliament.
I know we are in a nice bubble on here but does anyone know a remainer who would now vote leave?
Though opinion is consistently shifting
Some papers are currently soft peddling about Brexit… this will change the moment a referendum is announced, and the Leave groups are far more ready than anyone else to make use of social media advertising, placement and reinforcement.
I keep seeing this betrayal of the people mentioned depends which side feels betrayed
Realistically its only 52 percent of the people some of which were duped.
I think a very large number would vote for mickey mouse as pm just to see the back of brexit
I cant honestly see anyone actually taking this seriously and the EU must be getting ready even themselves to tell maybot 2.0 to do one
Source for that? We have dismantled their major illegal apparatus there, at the moment leave is still a bunch of disparate groups who have not been able to agree with each other.
Faith? This is what it has become. In the absence of a shred of actual evidence for any positive aspect to Brexit, it's now all about faith. Well I'm a Brexit atheist. Show me the evidence.
Question - if Cameron hadn't promised he would accept the referendum result and act on it, what would the government (and parliament) have done with a 52/48 result?
robbo123biking
But most Leavers seem to believe that a second referendum (or third) is going against democracy...
It's amazing how they can spin with a straight face what is the most democratic means available to the voter as "undemocratic".
You'd have to be pretty dumb to believe that lie. Presumably that's the target market.
I know we are in a nice bubble on here but does anyone know a remainer who would now vote leave?
Yes I know one, she openly admits that she didn't consider what a mess it would be, which is fair enough, at least its honest.
Edit.. Oh sorry, I read that backwards! No I don't know anyone.
I know we are in a nice bubble on here but does anyone know a remainer who would now vote leave?
Not but I've seen some leavers abandon due to the mess and lack of unicorns. I've seen leavers double down with the it's all a mega conspiracy, with those bankers, businesses and politicians just making up bad news.
i don't believe that anyone who opposes a second vote cares about 'respecting democracy'
they care about the fact that if there is a second vote, the leave campaign will lose and they will have blown the only chance they had through a complete and utter failure to come up with a viable leader and a coherent plan to enact the slim majority of the 2016 vote.
OK, I am sitting in Germany and worrying more and more. I'm visiting my (English) mum in hospital for a month so on my own with time to think a lot and I wrote this.
The soul, the power, and the glory of Europe is in breaking down borders - this is what we should be focusing on.
Realistically its only 52 percent of the people some of which were duped.
FFS. Can you really not see the danger in a second vote? Much as I hate the result, in a 'democracy' (using the word advisedly), it's irrelevant why people vote how they do. The only important thing is that they do, and that their wishes are executed by those who represent them. Take that away and the whole thing collapses.
The fact that voters were ill-informed, ignorant, prejudiced idiots is not a reason to hold a new referendum. Much as we like to protest that things have changed, they really haven't. I recently spent a weekend at my parents in a very working class area of Newcastle. I can assure you that these people haven't changed their minds. I can also assure you that the anger they had before the vote which resulted in them voting the way they did, is small fry compared to how they'll feel if they are again ignored.
However bad brexit may be, in whatever flavour, I'm pretty sure it won't be as bad as what happens if we open the Pandoras box of resentment, hatred and bottled up aggression that exists in these places.
However bad brexit may be, in whatever flavour, I’m pretty sure it won’t be as bad as what happens if we open the Pandoras box of resentment, hatred and bottled up aggression that exists in these places.
We currently have a deadlocked parliament, we need a way out of it. This is one of those ways.
If the decision is made by a forced 3 line whipped, bribed set of politicians doing it to save their own skins it's not going to do anything but bring up those feelings of resentment again.
What's your practical way forward?
I can also assure you
Oh how i laughed
Take that away and the whole thing collapses.
You have given an argument against the government unilaterally binning it off (although even then it is weak). I am not sure though how a second referendum is undemocratic? The one vote and its it is generally assigned to undemocratic regimes.
Please explain how on earth a second referendum is undemocratic?
Much as we like to protest that things have changed, they really haven’t.
Well we know what we will be voting for now.
I’m pretty sure it won’t be as bad as what happens if we open the Pandoras box of resentment, hatred and bottled up aggression that exists in these places.
I am pretty sure it will be when they realise that it hasnt helped them and in fact they have been taken for idiots by a bunch of hard right elitists
I can also assure you that the anger they had before the vote which resulted in them voting the way they did, is small fry compared to how they’ll feel if they are again ignored.
How are they going to feel if parliament decides to withdraw A50 without a second vote?
I wonder how many voted leave at JLR and would like to change their mind now? 🤔
I do find opposition to a 2nd referendum bizarre.
First vote was a vote for an untested concept. I'm happy enough to admit that voters on both sides were voting more from a gut reaction and to a greater extent preconception and prejudice perspective. A second vote would/should be a vote on a concrete proposal - to take the best deal/compromise we have been able to negotiate to get the best of leaving whilst retaining healthly ties with the EU; to walk away with no deal at all but leave and see where that takes us or (having tested what the other options would look like in reality) vote to stay within the EU.
Part of growing up and maturing is appreciating that compromise is an inherent part of getting by. Getting everything your own way is rarely an option and holding out for it is often a recipe for being marginalised and permanently dissatisfied with your lot. Sadly I don't believe the voting population have the intellect, the assimilation of knowledge or the maturity to understand that. The last few years (looking across the pond too) have seen me fall out of love with the concept of democracy. Too many voters feel 'entitled' to have their say but feel no responsibility to inform themselves beyond social media rhetoric. This plays into the hands of the very worst kind of people to be our leaders. It's all thoroughly depressing.
A reminder - if Brexit happens, it will still be seen as a "betrayal" by many (most?) people who voted Brexit… because it's not the Brexit they voted for. They'll be complaints of "Brexit in name only" from some, and "where is the frictionless trade" from others, and "this was meant to help our fishing/farming industry" from others, and "we still can't bring in more curry chefs" from others… and so on. Avoiding a referendum, or avoiding cancelling A50, will not suddenly make people who voted Brexit feel that the mandate they gave the government has been honoured.
Very few people "want" a second referendum. Most people know we have to have one. Sadly. But urgently.
I still say cancelling A50, and then putting a real plan for replacing EU membership to the people is a way forward that avoids all the brinkmanship that's about to happen. Leave are likely to win that, but then they have a real mandate for a real plan, and the time to inact it.
I am pretty sure it will be when they realise that it hasnt helped them and in fact they have been taken for idiots by a bunch of hard right elitists
'they realise' are the two words which undercut your argument. I'm sure that some of them will have twigged, but the majority won't, and the danger of another vote is that ignoring the result of the last one will harden the leave vote, while fatigue and apathy will weaken the remain vote. Leave will have a field day.
The only way to improve the chances of remain is to split the leave vote with a three-option poll. Let the nutters plump for no-deal, the weary and more moderate the May deal, and a bigger chunk remain. But even then you have a bigger percentage voting for some kind of Brexit, and a smaller one to stay in the EU.
I can't see many scenarios in which a second ref would deliver what most of us want it to. Don't get me wrong, a second ref may well be worth a shot, and I'd love a reversal of the original result, but if the last two years has taught me anything, it is not to overestimate the capacity of the British electorate for reasonable analysis. People vote on an emotional level, and admitting you are wrong, even internally, is one of the hardest things for anyone to do.
with the rhetoric coming from number 10 the maybot is setting it up for a her deal vs no deal ref
but the majority won’t, and the danger of another vote is that ignoring the result of the last one will harden the leave vote, while fatigue and apathy will weaken the remain vote. Leave will have a field day.
Where as momentum is building against Brexit, against the deal and against the government?
As I asked above - what is your practical way out of this?
I am not sure though how a second referendum is undemocratic?
I'm not sure it matters what we think, only what those who voted for it thinks, and I'm pretty sure they see it as the very opposite of democratic.
How are they going to feel if parliament decides to withdraw A50 without a second vote?
No better obviously, and that would be equally if not more dangerous.
Well we know what we will be voting for now.
They knew what they were voting for before. In or out. The only people who are confused are those arguing about what 'out' means, hence the growing frustration and anger, fuelled by the patronising dismissal of what they think by calling them gammons. We may be deadlocked but really, calling them silly names and ignoring them is not going to solve the problem.
What does "out" mean?
well there is out, and out out....
admitting you are wrong, even internally, is one of the hardest things for anyone to do
You should be a politician mate, however using that kind of logic you wouldnt last 20 seconds.
As I asked above – what is your practical way out of this?
There is no clean way out of this. The only roadmap I can see involves Parliamentary chaos (tick), rejection of May's Brexit (tick soon), prospect of no deal looming, A50 put on hold for a year or so to avoid no deal. Momentum may well be building, but it needs time to build.
The problem with May's deal falling is that she will quit, and everything then depends on what flavour of Tory takes the hotseat, and whether the Tories can cling on.
You could possibly see an SNP/Labour coalition as the means to hauling us back, but that would require a GE and a 2nd Indyref to be promised.
They knew what they were voting for before. In or out. The only people who are confused are those arguing about what ‘out’ means, hence the growing frustration and anger, fuelled by the patronising dismissal of what they think by calling them gammons. We may be deadlocked but really, calling them silly names and ignoring them is not going to solve the problem.
They keep getting asked what they want!!
The problem with May’s deal falling is that she will quit
sure about that?
And if there was a second referendum and the result was to leave with No Deal what do you then do?
Agree with Dazh in that people knew what they were voting for. Whether they understood the implications or the complexities is another matter but leaving the EU clearly means leaving all aspects of the EU (customs union, FoM, ECJ etc,)
Some of the implications have become clearer but that may make no difference to someone who doesn't believe them, i.e project fear along with a misguided view of how great Great Britain is.
And if there was a second referendum and the result was to leave with No Deal what do you then do?
accept this isn't a country i want to live in and emigrate.
How are they going to feel if parliament decides to withdraw A50 without a second vote?
Honestly who gives a shit, it was not legally binding some trigger happy bint pulled the trigger, its parliaments job to do whats best for the country not one woman.
Whichever way this goes half the people are going to be ****ed off its going to be a lot worse when the half that voted to leave start whining the country is ****ed
sure about that?
Yeh, I know, she doesn't take the hint very well, but even for her, getting slaughtered on this particular vote MUST be a bridge too far. The only reason she'd stay on is to keep BoJo out. I suppose in the spirit of public service and taking one for the team she could be the one who revokes A50 then disappears. She is a remainer, after all.
I do love the idea that if a50is cancelled there wll be riots! Not a chance. No leave demo has had any significant numbers of people at it and given the demographic of leave voters its simply a laughable idea
Whether they understood the implications or the complexities is another matter but leaving the EU clearly means leaving all aspects of the EU
The flaw here is the leave campaign was busy promising that it didnt actually mean that. When it was pointed out they were talking shit that was "project fear". Now you could try claiming that the people really did know the full details but if so then easily resolved by a second referendum when they really would know the full details.
And if there was a second referendum and the result was to leave with No Deal what do you then do?
Get my Irish passport and speak to HR about options to relocate. We are an international team anyway.
Agree with Dazh in that people knew what they were voting for. Whether they understood the implications or the complexities is another matter but leaving the EU clearly means leaving all aspects of the EU (customs union, FoM, ECJ etc,)
Not to all the people, not to all MP's not according to some of the leave organisations campaigning for it. If you missed that then you were not paying attention.
Honestly who gives a shit, it was not legally binding some trigger happy bint pulled the trigger, its parliaments job to do whats best for the country not one woman.
THIS, very much THIS. Parliament need to consider what is in the best interest of the nation since, whatever happens, half the population are going to be pissed off.
Our parliament is on very shaky ground right now, weak, divided and ineffective.
Now you could try claiming that the people really did know the full details but if so then easily resolved by a second referendum when they really would know the full details.
Which full details do they know now?
only what those who voted for it thinks, and I’m pretty sure they see it as the very opposite of democratic.
Then they are idiots or ideological extremists pretending to be idiots. Its an incoherent moronic position. Hell working on that logic we can just call it off since what is being proposed is a third referendum.
fuelled by the patronising dismissal of what they think by calling them gammon
Apart from gammon is a lot more specific. This move from the specific to general is just playing to the hard right agenda.
calling them silly names and ignoring them is not going to solve the problem.
For those who use it I suspect it gets rid of some of the frustration at dealing with people who are trashing their futures.
Which full details do they know now?
What the maybot has negotiated. Admittedly it still isnt the full details but is a tad closer than the hard rights lies about not only having our cake and eating it but that we would be having cake delivered daily.
https://www.voteleavewatch.org.uk/leave_campaigners_try_to_drop_their_false_promises
Looking over those, even I hadn't realised just how detached from reality the Leave campaign was.
Just a thought, and apologies if this has been done already, but does Maybot's deal allow for us to say, sometime in the transition period, "hang on, we don't like this, can we stay in Europe after all, please"?
If it does, is it worth considering it as a "trial separation", as opposed to a straight out divorce...?
Not really. If May's deal is accepted, we formally leave the EU next March. We are no longer a member. Even in a transition period, it's not simply a question of revoking A50, that no longer applies, we've left.
We would have to apply to rejoin, get approval from the 27, and quite frankly, at that point I imagine they'd tell us to do one.
The whole thing is a farce - only 28% of the population want out, or want to inflict this on us. So why should we leave?