Thanks for pointing out the inherent problem with capitalism. Business profiting from and exploiting peoples labour.
As the financial ads says “past Performance is no guide to the future”.
So past performance and the fact that it is a slow moving organisation (deliberately due to the number of countries involved) is not a good guide of how it will the EU will look in 10 years time, i.e. very similar?
I would say I could put together a solid forecast of how the UK would be fairing in 10 years time if still in the EU however I don't think anyone can really do that if we drop out.
I would like less government. The majority of issues that effect our daily lives could and should be sorted at the local level
You need both levels of government as they are responsible for different things with different priorities. Not sure what less government would look like, which stuff would no longer be governed in your idea?
The majority of issues that effect our daily lives could and should be sorted at the local level
LOL he's so used to the standard background status quo of a modern developed state that he doesn't even think that things like security, stability, democracy and a functioning economy are worth mentioning! They aren't issues precisely because that stable modern state has ensured them for you.
Less government can mean both less things being governed and less layers of government, I meant the latter. I think you knew that but as always in this thread when the echo chamber throws back a discordant sound, straw men appear everywhere to be burnt.
Thanks for pointing out the inherent problem with capitalism. Business profiting from and exploiting peoples labour.
Heres a fairly common Brexiteer opinion I’ve been seeing.
What I was wondering: with the majority of the country voting to leave the EU should it not have been the goal of the UK through its negotiations to destroy them? That is to bring the rotten structure to an end? And as a so called 'no deal' is now the only way to fulfil the referendum result shouldn't we use this to bring their demise with aggressive deregulation? After all they are stuck with their regulations (they're not easy to change) whilst we would be free to do as we please to make our country function effectively.
Good luck seeing an end to the exploitation of labour 👍
Less government can mean both less things being governed and less layers of government, I meant the latter. I think you knew that but as always in this thread when the echo chamber throws back a discordant sound, straw men appear everywhere to be burnt.
I didn't know that you meant less layers but have a rant about echo chambers by all means. Which layers of government would you remove?
and less layers of government,
We have effectively 3, UK, Shire and Parish. Pick one...
Well seeing as this is a thread about the EU I'd think that would be pretty obvious.
I prefer to judge someone by their actions not words. I don't exploit labour neither is my labour exploited.
Another section of society who were lied to.
I prefer to judge someone by their actions not words. I don’t exploit labour neither is my labour exploited.
He has been a proponent for de regulation for as long as I can remember. You pretend to yourself otherwise if you like.
Fortress Europe very much still seems to think of a specific region as ‘theirs’
😂😂😂
As opposed to the welcoming arms of immigrant adoring Brexiters
That's a comedy gem whattiler !
The EUs attempts to handle the migration crisis may have fallen well short of what was needed but brexit has been all about rejecting immigrants at the 'local level' your argument seems schizophrenic.
At least youve stopped pretending that the EU stops us from going on strike etc
The monstrous EU up to now has permitted me to freely go and live in many countries with little beurocracy. Yes there are rules around it, however now post Brexit, there are proposals to have landlords and employers check the legality and immigration status of people looking for a job or a place to stay. Is this the reduced level of government interference you were alluding to?
Also, I cannot see how reduced government red tape will reduce worker exploitation rather than increase it.
Kimbers, that's just whataboutery and doesn't change the fact that the EU has acted despicably when to comes to refugees.
athgray. That's my point, you in your relatively well off position from inside fortress Europe are permitted freely to go wherever you want. Not so easy from inside a detention centre in Greece.
As for long term costs, according to IFG £2bn spent so far and 20,000 new civil servants since the ref, when we desperately need to reverse the effects of austerity, police, social care, youth outreach,
instead we are spending it on red tape to give us less rights & make the country poorer. Brexit has extended austerity.
Growth estimates are just that, even if the guardian's reference is 10fold out that's still £bns wasted (I suppose really they should be giving a probability like they do with chance of rain)
As for Gimyah, as universities minister he should be well aware of the damage brexit is alteady doing to the sector.
the fact that the EU has acted despicably when to comes to refugees.
Yep they caved totally to the populists & Brexiters of the world and the UK is the pinnacle of it with the little englander brexit dream.
You actually believe that? That's the best justification of their policy you can think of. There's not much point continuing this if that's what you believe.
So why do you think Merkel reduced the number of refugees after the first million or so ?
How do you think brexit will help the plight of migrants entering Europe?
No longer members of the EU, how will we help to change their policies ?
How did u feel about the tories voting against sanctioning Hungary for its stance on migrants in return for support for brexit?
I genuinely don't understand how you can claim to care for migrants when you're siding with the likes of Katie Hopkins over brexit
Someone else I’ve never heard of has just resigned over Mays deal
Someone else I’ve never heard of has just resigned over Mays deal
Don't worry, they will just be replaced by another person you have never heard of. There is a pretty endless list of people who want promotion.
Along with the other free movements, capital, goods and freedom to establish services, it’s a means to grease the wheels of capitalism
I'm sort of interested in this. I understand fully the point about capitalism, but don't understand how more borders and more separation between states is a good thing. If you're coming at this from a leftwing perspective (as I assume you are), then the primary goal should be the destruction or dissolution of national borders. You can't take a leftwing view of widening equality if you then just ringfence it in an arbitrary area. Yes, at this point in time the lack of borders enables capitalists to get rich. That's because we live in a capitalist society, not because we have open borders.
Some real assumptions there Kimbers. There have been plenty of studies to show that not all people who want to leave the EU are anti immigration, Lord Ashcroft's for one. You'll have to take my word for it. I am not anti immigration. Given the choice of either/or I would rather have immigration from countries that we were complicit in destroying than from relatively well off countries in Europe. However why des it have to be either/or. Nobody has come up with a fact based reason as to why free movement of people is in fact free movement of some (or the right type) of people, without resorting to logical fallacies and rhetoric. The biggest logical fallacy being that because I voted to leave the EU I am a rabid anti migrant such as Katie Hopkins. Have you any fact based arguments to explain the deficiencies of freedom of movement from outside the EU?
Just read the article posted above about curry houses
There won't be more people coming from outside the EU post Brexit
dazh - correct I am an internationalist. The EU for me, as I have already posited, is not a benevolent exponent of open borders for the sake of all, it's limited in it's benevolence to those that can bring something to it's raison d'etre, the advancement of globalisation and neoliberalism. Unfortunately, those from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and sub Saharan Africa can't, which is why they're dying by their thousands in the Mediterranean.
Totally agree on the stance towards non-EU migrants. What's going on in the Med is indefensible. However I really don't see how leaving helps. I pretty much agree with the left-internationalist criticisms of the EU, but leaving will only add fuel to the nationalist rightwing side of the argument, not the opposite. Leaving the EU doesn't make it more likely that we will have a more leftwing society, the very opposite in fact. There is much more in common between the EU and the left than there is between the left and the nationalist nutters.
the Daily Desperate
I am sure Mogg Boris and Co are going to do lots for refugees 🙄
Do people really believe that?
So because Mogg, Boris and CO aren't going to do anything for refugees, then that justifies that the EU are also not going to anything for refugees.
Another logical fallacy.
Next
whattiler - how do you think leaving the EU will help refugees if we are talking logical fallacies?
Answering a question with a question
Again, a logical fallacy
The EU is doing a lot more that is for sure !
@whattiler - I'm a little confused as to what you're trying to say here.
You're talking about the EU's treatment of people from non-EU countries, which to be honest I know very little about. But what would you rather see instead? Are you arguing in favour of a freedom-of-movement agreement globally?
Also, just so I'm clear, are you talking about refugees or immigration?
Cheers.
I am just asking for someone to explain the dichotomy between the EU's freedom of movement and it's treatment of refugees.
Hmmmmmmm - lets try again.
How does the UK leaving the EU help refugees?
I am assuming you are not an ignorant troll and am genuinely interested in your view on this. I just can't see from your previous posts any explanation that I can understand how the act of the UK leaving the EU helps refugees in any way.
My perspective is that the current Brexit turmoil is making our country more introspective and less likely to help refugees. Please help me understand why you think I am wrong (I want to be wrong by the way!)
No, you've got it dead on, I'm just an ignorant troll. Just an ignorant troll who's still waiting for an answer to my question.
@whattiler – I’m a little confused as to what you’re trying to say here.
Don't worry, I don't think you are alone. I call trolling.
Thanks for confirmation whattiler.
Look, I've raised a point about an EU policy that is very obviously indefensible, so all I get back is more questions, ad homs, logical fallacies. What's the point? Can someone please ban me from this forum.
The EU for me, as I have already posited, is not a benevolent exponent of open borders for the sake of all, it’s limited in it’s benevolence to those that can bring something to it’s raison d’etre, the advancement of globalisation and neoliberalism.
Go on then I'll bite. Firstly I'd disagree that the primary aim of the EU is the advancement of globalisation and neoliberalism. The EU/EEC/whatever was setup to engender greater cooperation between European nations with the primary aim of avoiding more catastrophic wars. The main method of achieving this was alignment and redistribution of wealth across borders through trade and other economic policies. In this it has been spectacularly successful.
However, an inevitable result of this is that it became a vehicle for capitalists to make money, and given global political inclination towards neoliberalism, the EU encapsulated many of those policies into it's laws. It didn't invent neo-liberalism, it just adopted it, just like every other major economic power in the world was doing.
As for it's stance to open borders, given that the EU has expanded to 28 nations from it's core of only a few I hardly think it can be accused of insular parochialism. I can't think of any other political or economic union or alliance which has been so open and accommodating with regard to opening it's borders to foreigners. Yes, there are problems in the med. That simply means that what the EU has done needs to be expanded beyond the reaches of the continent. How this would work I don't know, but there's no reason it couldn't given sufficient political will. One thing I do know is that this will never happen if it's major members start to leave and follow their own blinkered self interests. The solution to the migration crisis is more cooperation between nations, not less.
I am just asking for someone to explain the dichotomy between the EU’s freedom of movement and it’s treatment of refugees.
You could petition your councillor that kept your local park open to sort out the problem of Greece's refugee camps.
The EU is far from perfect, however I would prefer that we were in it and being proactive in trying to correct it's mistakes. For too many people now it becomes convenient that we can now say this is someone else's problem.
Post Brexit Britians mentality will be a far less sympathetic place to the plight of refugees than before. This is undeniable IMO.
This is a Local government for local people. There's nothing for you here!!
Some ask what’s the point of The Maybot going round the country trying to get the public on her side ahead of the Commons vote on the 11th?
After all, they won’t be influencing that vote...
Well, she’s grooming them for the one coming along after that. 😉
Can someone please ban me from this forum.
No-one is forcing you to post.
Look, I’ve raised a point about an EU policy that is very obviously indefensible, so all I get back is more questions, ad homs, logical fallacies. What’s the point?
What is the point? People are engaging with your posts, what would you have them do instead? Twenty people sitting there going "yup, you're absolutely right mate" doesn't really make for scintillating discussions.
@dazh said he totally agreed with you that the situation around the Med was indefensible, I've said that I know very little about it and asked for clarification as to what you were getting at, you then get all pouty because people are asking you questions.
I doubt you'll find many people here who believe the EU is perfect, so any argument which has a basis in "the EU isn't perfect because..." is built on sand because we already know this. Using it as a justification for leaving is akin to burning your house down because you hated the wallpaper.
Can someone please ban me from this forum.
I can, yes. I'd rather not though, it's nice to have different opinions around. Email moderator@ with your request if you're actually being serious rather than just having a temper tantrum.
**** me that Express headline is desperate. Give the chavs Brexit or they won’t max out their credit cards on tat for Christmas. Really?