He’s a Brexiteer. Deal with it.
The sort of thing a Brexiter would say. You are a Brexiter, no good trying to hide it and claim you are not as I know you are. Last word on the matter.
Curses! Rumbled!
Mogg is MP for North-East Somerset, so looks like you’ll be avoiding Bath for a while.
Bath itself is, mostly, safe and currently Lib Dem. Although it is surrounded by his constituents.
Is it at all possible that Corbyn is right on brexit? I've asked myself this many times and don't have an answer. The rabidly anti-brexit side of me who thinks anyone who voted for it is a ignorant imbecile thinks he's got it terribly wrong and will pay for it by eventually alienating his young supporters and drifting back into mediocre obscurity. The other half however wonders if he touching on something that could propel him to power.
He's one of the few politicians who recognises brexit for what it is, which is a protest vote against the status quo and a desperate attempt at some form of fundamental change. No one else, be that May, Blair, Chukka Umunna, Vince Cable, George Osborne or any of the other centrist status quo supporters are offering to solve the problems which created brexit, they just offer the same tired 'like it or lump it' message to the people who are so pissed off.
Maybe Corbyn and McDonnell are way ahead of everyone else? There not much in that speech above to dislike or disagree with if you come from any sort of left-leaning or progressive outlook. It seems to me that he's the only politician acknowledging that we can't go on as before as otherwise we'll end up in a much worse position down the line.
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No wonder this crook keeps threatening Brexit for his own gain.
What goes around come around ... 😀
Chewkw you is still funny.....
Realistically, here’s what happens.
the “deal” is terrible. It satisfies neither camp of remainers or leavers.
labour, snp, Lib Dem’s etc can safely vote it down in Parliament knowing they won’t be “the enemy of the people” given how unpopular the deal is to the leavers
then it’s cap in hand to the eu to call the whole thing off while we sort ourselves out politically. GE most likely, Tories out, labour in, we forget about the whole thing and life goes back to normal.
brexit simply can’t happen now without destroying the UK, both financially and in terms of the Union.
brexit simply can’t happen now without destroying the UK, both financially and in terms of the Union.
I see no problem in that even if it means total destruction of the finance and even the Union.
Sometimes it is better to start again as the the entire system is knackered ...
Destroy and create ... just like the universe.
Chewkw you is still funny…..
Yes, that bloke is a corporate crook. A crook. I mean how much does he earn and yet he wanted more !!! What a despicable being ...
chewkw you is still unable to recognise irony
I see no problem in that even if it means total destruction of the finance and even the Union.
Sadly this is the view of many. It may be better long term but in the short term (20-30 years) the UK is ****ed. Minor adjustments to a national economy take 10-15 years to shake out this is extreme
The other half however wonders if he touching on something that could propel him to power.
Let the country be destroyed and then re-build it as a socialist utopia fantasy. This has happened only once before and the country was a mess, talk about learning the wrong lessons from history.
The disaster capitalists will win this one.
Maybe Corbyn and McDonnell are way ahead of everyone else?
It seems to me that he’s the only politician acknowledging that we can’t go on as before as otherwise we’ll end up in a much worse position down the line.
Err… all politicans are proposing and seeking change, always. The only question to ask is, does Brexit enable changes that you think are beneficial to you, your family, your friends, your company, your region, your country, Europe, the world generally… if you can answer yes to a few of those, then you have little to fear from the Brexit those two are helping happen.
That speech seeks to conflate Brexit with unrelated and popular Labour policies.
There is a growing campaign theme that standing in the way of Brexit is standing in the way of other, admirable, Labour policies.
That seeking a referendum is somehow preventing a general election, preventing a Labour government.
I don't see it sticking.
Google Translate now does Leave speak. This was after Labour asked for my support and I declined.
does Brexit enable changes that you think are beneficial to you, your family
That’s the whole point. To me it doesn’t, but millions of people at the bottom end of the economic spectrum who have suffered from 40 years neoliberalism do. They may be wrong on Brexit but are right on the need for change. Corbyn is the only one offering it, and is the only one acknowledging that the Brexit vote was a cry for help from the people, rather than telling them to stop moaning and get on with it.
The only one? Nonsense. Most of his party see the 2016 Referendum as a call for change by many who voted Leave, but realise that Brexit isn't the change that is required, in fact it will exasperate nearly every problem that led to the protest vote element of the result.
Why was it dominated by older voters then, when their children are the ones suffering the generational drop in living standards?
Davis was in America last week, bragging about lining up sweet, post-brexit trade deals, trip paid for via Bannon/legatum ?
https://twitter.com/OwenPaterson/status/1063860778242109441?s=19
Aaron Banks paid for Hoey to go on a trip to washington last year, why do you think the Brexiteers are so frantically trying to block a customs union deal?
https://twitter.com/alan_firth_/status/925894945206128640?s=19
brexit is the neoliberalists wet dream come true.<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> </span>
Its all been pretty apparent from the off what they want. They've wrapped it up in all kinds of rhetoric and evasion to come out from actually saying it. They want to establish the UK as an economy in two distinct parts
1) A sweatshop economy where, once free of EU regulation, worker rights, environmental standards and all restriction on corporate power are swept away
2) A tax haven off the shores of Europe, undercutting everyone for corporation tax and then hoovering up dirty money to launder it through the totally deregulated City of London, and aid international tax evasion.
This will benefit the usual top couple of per cent, while the rest of us get well and truly bent over
does Brexit enable changes that you think are beneficial to you, your family?
That’s the whole point. To me it doesn’t, but millions of people at the bottom end of the economic spectrum who have suffered from 40 years neoliberalism do
But those people can't answer that question. Now if you slightly alter the question to "do you think Brexit will enable changes that you think are beneficial to you, your family"? then they can sensibly answer "Yes" because they have been led to believe that the EU is responsible for their situation, even though it isn't.
That’s the whole point. To me it doesn’t, but millions of people at the bottom end of the economic spectrum who have suffered from 40 years neoliberalism do. They may be wrong on Brexit but are right on the need for change. Corbyn is the only one offering it, and is the only one acknowledging that the Brexit vote was a cry for help from the people, rather than telling them to stop moaning and get on with it.
No.
We should just remind them that they no longer serve any utilitarian purpose to society.
They should make themselves useful or pack their bags and **** off, or shuffle off this mortal coil! We need border control at their wombs - coming into this world and taking my tax money, why should I pay for them to have kids, I won't stand for it!
🙂
Its all been pretty apparent from the off what they want. They’ve wrapped it up in all kinds of rhetoric and evasion to come out from actually saying it. They want to establish the UK as an economy in two distinct parts
1) A sweatshop economy where, once free of EU regulation, worker rights, environmental standards and all restriction on corporate power are swept away
2) A tax haven off the shores of Europe, undercutting everyone for corporation tax and then hoovering up dirty money to launder it through the totally deregulated City of London, and aid international tax evasion.
This will benefit the usual top couple of per cent, while the rest of us get well and truly bent over
I can't think of any other reasons why certain Brexiteers would be so keen to get us out as soon as possible, regardless of the cost to anyone else.
Comes into force mid-2019
Why was it dominated by older voters then
A couple of reasons. One is that even though they are relatively well off, they don't acknowledge that. I could give you loads of anecdotal evidence of elderly working class relatives who think they're poor and have been shat on or ignored by successive governments. Another is that even if they don't think they're poor, they have a general view of national decline. This includes everything from kids not respecting their elders, the NHS and public transport going to shit, and their grandkids being stuck in crappy insecure jobs. They also have much less attachment to Europe and 'foreigners' than the younger generation so don't see cutting ties as that big a deal. All they want is things to change. They know they have lost out over the past 40 years, and It's got very little to do with going back to the 1950s no matter how much remainers say it is.
Which of those will be addressed by Brexit? Which will be made worse?
Which of those will be addressed by Brexit? Which will be made worse?
I agree brexit won't make any of these better, at least not in it's current form, which is why I'm against it. That's not the point I'm making though. The point is that we ignore these people at our peril. Corbyn, for all his faults, seems to be attempting to address the complaints exercised through the brexit vote. Personally I think he's onto a loser with that, but at least he's not simply offering more of the same, or worse, as May currently is right now.
The more I think about it brexit is basically a London vs the regions problem. If you tell a working class bloke from Whitehaven that we can't leave with no deal because it will plunge the country into a massive recession, his response will be so what? As far as he's concerned we already are in a massive recession and the people who will suffer from the impact will be rich Londoners, who will get a taste of what people like him have had to deal with over the past 30 years.
brexit is the neoliberalists wet dream come true
I think this is partially back to front. And a huge contradiction.
Why would you be constantly punting the economic disaster of brexit if it was a neolibraists wet dream? If it's a disaster it's hardly going to benefit business is it?
"**** business"
Her Majesty's Government
They know they have lost out over the past 40 years,
Hah!
Yes, stable jobs, been part of a top 10 economy all their lives, enjoyed the benefits of lots of state support but consistently voted Tory because of migrants and benefits cheats taking their tax money and then whine when the NHS goes to shit.#
If this country suffered even a tenth of what developing worlders have to cope with, there would be mas suicides.
) A sweatshop economy where, once free of EU regulation, worker rights, environmental standards and all restriction on corporate power are swept away
2) A tax haven off the shores of Europe, undercutting everyone for corporation tax and then hoovering up dirty money to launder it through the totally deregulated City of London, and aid international tax evasion.
We actually just need a labour government to shore this up. Irrespective of the EU.
If it’s a disaster it’s hardly going to benefit business is it?
Depends what you call 'business'. If you've got a car plant in Sunderland I'm sure its about to become a nightmare, all that hassle with your supply chains and everything. Yu'll probably just sack it and move the plant to Poland, making your Sunderland workforce unemployed
If you've a consultancy in the city advising Foreign 'Businesses' on investment opportunities and 'Tax Efficiency' I'm sure you'll be rubbing your hands with glee at the forthcoming deregulation bonanza and the subsequent tsunami of dirty money flooding in
Of those two options, who's interests do you think the interests of Rees-Mogg and his chums are more closely aligned?
Go on... hazard a guess...?
If it’s a disaster it’s hardly going to benefit business is it?
Depends what you call ‘business’. If you’ve got a car plant in Sunderland I’m sure its about to become a nightmare, all that hassle with your supply chains and everything. Yu’ll probably just sack it and move the plant to Poland, making your Sunderland workforce unemployed
If you’ve a consultancy in the city advising Foreign ‘Businesses’ on investment opportunities and ‘Tax Efficiency’ I’m sure you’ll be rubbing your hands with glee at the forthcoming deregulation bonanza and the subsequent tsunami of dirty money flooding in
Of those two options, who’s interests do you think the interests of Rees-Mogg and his chums are more closely aligned?
Go on… hazard a guess…?
This.
Our problem was not the EU or migrants. Our problem, is that culturally we are to used to having it good. Our economy was built on plunder and trade in spices, tea, opium etc - industry was and has always been viewed by the PPE lot as side effect of this, heavy industry was there to support empire.
We the British are thieves, our elites understanding of economics is that of a thief whilst our lower classes are just used to having to ride on the back of wealth generated by the barrel of a gun.
America, Japan and China were or are being transformed by huge investments in science and engineering. Something that we the British, do not seem to appreciate. The only people in Britain who get this, are a handful of enlightened individuals and millennials.
"I think people in this country have had enough of experts" - Michael Gove
I think it's wrapped up in classism in the UK. Intellectualism is associated with elitism. It's seen as snobbish and arrogant to be clever.
But elites in the UK have used anti-intellectualism to their advantage. They can defend the status quo by saying e.g. 'those complex ideas from the continent, they're not British. We use a common-sense approach. We speak plainly. That's what makes the UK different. We call a spade a spade and don't need theory.'
So I think it's something that was ever present in the working uneducated classes - a suspicion that those with education would use their knowledge against those less fortunate, but that suspicion has been twisted and played against them.
Take a look at the arguments made in the AV vote campaign in the UK. The No vote relied on anti-intellectualism - 'the counting system is too complex. The UK can't afford this. Don't you think the common sense approach is that a winner should get the prize?'
'University of life, mate' is the classic refrain a non-uni educated person will say to you. Formal education above a certain level is still viewed negatively by half the population. There's an obsession with just going ahead doing, rather than considering and planning. Sometimes this works - the UK is pretty good at new company start ups, but it also takes too many risks.
You mentioned football - Football is mostly a working class game (for the players) in the UK. If you looked at some other sports e.g. Rugby you'd see a different demographic.
You don't get that attitude towards being clever and doing well in Asia.
just been going through the Guardian Live blog comments re PMQs and note that May is making repeated reference to 'no Brexit at all'. A cause for optimism? This comment jumped out at me:
The tories have laid a trap for Labour. If it's a choice between May's deal or staying in. If Labour vote down May's deal we will stay in the EU which is what May probably wants. She can then turn it on Labour, 'it's not our fault brexit didn't happen, we are still in the EU because Labour voted it down'. That line could be used against labour for decades decimating their voter base in the North. A great concern.
Quite frankly, if that happens I might laugh myself into a coma.
If May does that, I will learn stone masonry and erect a 100 foot tall statue of her in the middle of Sunderland.
Of those two options, who’s interests do you think the interests of Rees-Mogg and his chums are more closely aligned?
Do you think it's more or less likely that the intentions of JRM, Fox, IDS and John Redwood will be defeated by a centrist 'more of the same' approach, or an approach which takes the opposite view to JRM et al and seeks to take advantage of brexit to address the problem of working class people in the regions? I'm pretty sure that if the centrists fudge, or even stop brexit that they will soon find themselves out of power.
Interesting. Five live are just reporting the latest polling shows a huge surge in support of Theresa May among voters. Apparently, seeing the alternative laid out so starkly in front of them.... Rees Mogg flanked by a row of gammons, suddenly didn't look that appealing. And a lot of Tory MP's thought better of being associated with that particular look...
Someone mentioned the Brits being thieves
No no idea how accurate or balance that is
Slaves. You've forgotten the slaves. The trade wasn't just spices and tea, but people.
As far as he’s concerned we already are in a massive recession and the people who will suffer from the impact will be rich Londoners, who will get a taste of what people like him have had to deal with over the past 30 years.
I'm sure there's a degree of truth in that.
Slaves. You’ve forgotten the slaves. The trade wasn’t just spices and tea, but people.
Yes, quite right. I’m sure the author will be most appreciative of a Brit informing them of such a glaring omission.
What's the next two words in the theme song?
Slaves. You’ve forgotten the slaves. The trade wasn’t just spices and tea, but people.
Also don't forget the brutal, ruthless oppression of the working classes back home, who were little better than slaves - expected to work endless hours and live in squalor to finance the opulent lifestyles of their 'betters'.
Surely no-one in the Tory party would want to see a return to that, would they?
Looking at those blokes sat either side of Moggy, they don't look like the kind of people who'd countenance that kind of thing at all?
Also don’t forget the brutal, ruthless oppression of the working classes back home, who were little better than slaves – expected to work endless hours and live in squalor to finance the opulent lifestyles of their ‘betters’.
You'd be surprised at how many of the working classes wouldn't mind going back to an almost plantation economy, and living on some rich toffs estate as servants. I've been offered a job in a brewery by some proper landed gentry types estate, it would have been fairly cushy, I don't think he even cares about turning a profit....just being able to tell his mates he has a brewery for the lolz and the pride of making local ****ing everything - but I'd know my place and would have been constantly reminded of that,
It's the middle classes they hate.
It all went downhill for them when they had to report to middle management types in industry, who they resent.