[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

This is a known problem which has been swept under the carpet for years, now its blown up in our faces.

Only it hasn't. What has blown up is the racist scapegoating and elevation of this "issue" to the Number One vote-gathering tactic.

DanW, I think you will find Polish people are the largest group of EU nationals on the immigration stats. Italy is not No.2, Ireland is. Those nasty Irish are coming here with their leprachaunish ways, strange celtic customs, and inability to speak the language to steal your job.
Jambalaya can raise a glass of his favourite boujelais from his Parisian villa, and you can thank him that he has made it harder for you to follow that frightful path. Thanks to his, and millions of his peers followers you need not take that horrible job in Dublin, and you need not welcome our EU immigrants and the their families to be as our next generation of Britons.

While you're hazarding guesses on voting patterns, take another wild stab in the dark about how they all voted in the referendum? These are the very people - nasty, bigoted unapologetic racists - who's votes were actively courted by Johnson, Gove and co, and now feel their views have been legitimised, and represent the acceptance by the mainstream

"So it is with the Word, with the gift of speech that it the glory of man and distinguishes him everlastingly from the silence or animal noises of creation. When he made the Word, God made possible also its contrary. Silence is the not the contrary of the Word but is guardian. No, He created on the night-side of language a speech for hell. Whose words mean hatred and vomit of life. Few men can learn that speech or speak it for long. It burns their mouths. It draws them into death. But there shall come a man whose mouth shall be as a furnace and whose tongue as a sword laying waste. He will know the grammar of hell and teach it to others. He will know the sounds of madness and loathing and make them seem music. Where God said, let there be, he will unsay." - The Portage To San Cristobal of A.H

I thought this was posted on this thread already but couldn't find it.

This sums it up for me - note the default response from the British Asian guy was immigration, but as the women points out that is because the media has force fed him this line and it's the first thing that pops into his head.

If the government stood up and said no brexit but taxes are rising and money is going to be pumped into these northern towns to build them up and encourage industries/companies to move there, then I think that would have been acceptable to the vast majority of people (as long as it was realised).

And it would have been a finger up to all the actual racists.

This should have been said immediately though, as the economy has now taken a fairly big hit.

Turner guy, here is the biggest problem for the remain politicians. Explaining that the eu hadn't screwed people over they had.

I voted remain and have generally liberal views but do think all you lot calllng anyone with migration concerns racists are as bad as Farage and extremists at the other end of the spectrum.

People worry about new people coming into their communities, thats not an unreasonable concern.
Ignore it and you get Brexit.

No, listen to them and offer them a referendum and you get brexit.

The brobdingnagian cretins should have never been allowed to vote on the issue. Referendums result in crude thinking that blurs that ever so thin red line between democracy and ochlocracy.

all you lot calllng anyone with migration concerns racists

I agree, but I'm not doing that.

Go read that Facebook thread, go listen to an EDL march, read some Britain First stuff, those particular people don't have "migration concerns", they have racist concerns.

Ignoring them is dangerous. Legitimising them is worse!

Were Italians not the largest or second largest group of EU nationals coming to the UK? I don't know the exact numbers but it isn't as though it would make any difference to a lot of people's perceptions of immigration anyway

From a chart I found from the Telegraph online:

Spain: 33,000
Poland: 27,000
France: 22,000
Italy: 16,000
Romania: 15,000
Germany: 11,000
Lithuania: 11,000
Netherlands: 8,000
Portugal: 8,000

I don't see many calls for the Spanish to "go home".

Ignoring them is dangerous. Legitimising them is worse!

Why is ignoring them worse? Can't we go back to the good old 19th century days of horse charging the riotous plebs?

People worry about new people coming into their communities

Is that not in itself xenophobic?

Or are you talking about the effect on the labour market? Cos that's the concern I think. It's clear to see that if millions of people were to suddenly to turn up in a country competing for work, it would cause trouble.

Not saying that's what's happened, or is going to happen, mind. Jury still seems to be out on if our levels of immigration are actually an issue. People seem to blame immigration for general economic turmoil, maybe because they see foreigners in work when they are out of it.

I voted remain and have generally liberal views but do think all you lot calllng anyone with migration concerns racists are as bad as Farage and extremists at the other end of the spectrum.

Who's doing that? I'm accusing Farage of being an out and out racist, and Johnson and Gove of pandering to racists, and all the above of deliberately and totally irresponsibly stoking up racial tension, to further their own aims, with precious little concern to the long term consequences of that

From a chart I found from the Telegraph online:

Spain: 33,000
Poland: 27,000
France: 22,000
Italy: 16,000
Romania: 15,000
Germany: 11,000
Lithuania: 11,000
Netherlands: 8,000
Portugal: 8,000

I don't see many calls for the Spanish to "go home".

Those numbers make sense. I must have confused Italian for Spanish, bloody racist 🙂

People worry about new people coming into their communities, thats not an unreasonable concern.

Don't they only worry when the person is "foreign" and "different" from them? they don't moan when its dave from Guilfrod or Frank from Bolton. They only moan when its Abdhul from bongobongoland. Are the BNP ok and addressing a "reasonable concern"?
If not then their is a point where this "fear of foreigners" does become racism. At best we are talking about where we draw the line not if some folk are racists. Obviously racist folk dislike immigrations

I accept I live in a bubble of liberals but I have yet to hear anyone speak to me about immigration that was not a racist. Perhaps its because they know how I will react. I am sure there are hard working salt of the earths who just hate immigration but are not racists but its getting into oxymoron territory.

Not all leave voters are racist but all racist were voting leave

[s]Ignore it [/s] Pander to this and you get Brexit.

do think all you lot calllng anyone with migration concerns racists

I don't see anyone doing that. I see people saying that making out that immigration is the/one-of-the major problems, enough to decide our future as a country for decades to come, is racist.

Cap fits?

[i]This is a known problem which has been swept under the carpet for years, now its blown up in our faces.[/i]

Only it hasn't. What has blown up is the racist scapegoating and elevation of this "issue" to the Number One vote-gathering tactic.

Only in your world Dr J....there are plenty of communities that have been concerned about it long before the infamous Gillian Duffy/Gordon Brown moment. That was six years ago and what has been done to even patronise these worried communities?

Concerned by or blaming?

Concerned by or blaming?

Some are concerned and some take it further as we've seen. I just find it difficult to believe that all you lefties think they should have their towns and villages changed immensely, without having legitimate concerns about it.

I don't see many calls for the Spanish to "go home".

But, no need to let facts get in the way of a political campaign eh?

I just find it difficult to believe that all you lefties think they should have their towns and villages changed immensely, without having legitimate concerns about it.

For the record I'm not a leftie

I hear the hard-of-thinking in my local complaining about 'all the ****'s', then they say in the next breath that we need to be out of Europe to combat this.

They think this because:

A) They're as thick as pigshit
B) Nigel Farage and UKIP have deliberately conflated two separate issues, as with the 'Breaking Point' poster, and then suggested that 2+2 = 874.33. So vote for us.
C) Because it temporarily suited its ends to do so, the leave campaign (at the very least) deliberately acquiesced in this, giving it an air of legitimacy that they foolishly thought they could just pop back in its box once they've finished with it. You can't. Its not that easy. Instead, you've legitimised racism

Or maybe they didn't even care? I doubt you have much problem with racial and ethnic tension in your neighbourhood, when you live in the places that Nigel and Boris inhabit

Some are concerned and some take it further as we've seen. I just find it difficult to believe that all you lefties think they should have their towns and villages changed immensely, without having legitimate concerns about it.

Many of the towns and villages with the least amount of exposure to actual immigrants were the ones that voted remain and have higher levels of racism - as they think that their quaint little English villages are going to be descended on by a horde of spear chucking brown people.

Those towns and cities where the local whites have been more exposed to brown people tend to be less afraid of them.

That phenomena has also be proven time and time again in the psychology world.

"Legitimate concern" is just a euphemism for "I hate n******"

Also my thinking may be confused...
I'm sat on a tram with probably 30+ ethnic backgrounds, maybe 100+ nationalities and if I had to pick I couldn't tell you who was born here. Despite being white Anglo Saxondale (with a little nord) in Oz I'm the immigrant taking some bodies job, living in their house stealing their wine etc.
The world is better through immigration.

"Legitimate concern" is just a euphemism for "I hate n******"

That's unfair.

There are reasonable legitimate non-racist concerns about immigration.

e.g. if increased immigration means our population grows faster than before then how will our already stretched public services cope with the extra demand at a time when their budgets are being squeezed?

Or, if large numbers of unskilled workers from poorer countries enter our job market then won't that drive down the wages at the lower end of the market and increase the percentage of people on low incomes?

@GRAHAMS 180K peak immigration, at the same time unemployment was falling. As a comparison Oz issued over 200k working holiday visa's last year with 1/3 of the population.

There are reasonable legitimate non-racist concerns about immigration.

As before - reasonable to have concerns, racist to elevate those concerns to headline level.

As a comparison Oz issued over 200k working holiday visa's last year with 1/3 of the population.

But... but... are you suggesting that an Australian Style Points System wasn't/isn't a magic bullet that will mean that 'nice' foreign people can move here to contribute, while brown people/ones that are the wrong religion/ and Turks/rapists can all **** off back to where they came from?

Next you'll be telling me that the Leave campaign were fully aware of this, but carried on parrotting it anyway, offering ludicrously simple solutions to complex problems, having built the 'immigration problem' up to mean the end of civilisation as we know it?

@GRAHAMS 180K peak immigration, at the same time unemployment was falling. As a comparison Oz issued over 200k working holiday visa's last year with 1/3 of the population.

Yep, didn't mean to imply I agreed with those concerns, just trying to illustrate that people can be concerned about immigration without being racist.

Apparently Leadsom's CV might not be entirely accurate - who'd have thought a leaver might be a bit of a fibber?

I'm gob-smacked.

Not to defend the little Englanders, but the Aus working holiday visa thing is a bit of a red herring. They are only valid for a year (I think). Japan also gets probably 250,000 immigrants a year too, but almost all of them get kicked out after 3 years at most, the total immigrant population is stable at around 1 mill (plus 1 mill 3rd-gen Koreans, but that's another story entirely). Short-term visa holders are not immigrants, they are visitors.

Whereas 300,000 EU immigrants per year are potentially staying as long as they want.

if increased immigration means our population grows faster than before then how will our already stretched public services cope with the extra demand at a time when their budgets are being squeezed

Well then don't squeeze the damn budgets.

If the people who come generate wealth then the taxation pays for the public services.

By moaning about strain on public services you seem to be implicitly assuming that they won't be contributing in proportion. Not all immigrants are benefit scroungers, as we have already established. In fact - by arriving at working age and starting work straight away it would be better for the economy than people being born here.

Whereas 300,000 EU immigrants per year

184,000 a year, according to Migration Watch UK. (270,000 arriving and 85,000 leaving).

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics

Indeed and I agree that most of the concern over immigration seems to be aimed at the Muslim population, despite the fact that has nothing to do with the EU and many (or most by now?) of the Muslim population are British born anyway.

Gilliam Duffy was complaining about eastern European migration, she lives in Rochdale which has a high Asian population, deep social divides based on ethnic origin and the grooming Scandal at its worst at the time

She was the canary in the mine, and should have been heeded by labour who dominate the local political establishment

But, no need to let facts get in the way of a political campaign eh?

I voted remain, but the "bigoted woman" commentary about leave voters isn't going to tackle the issues, rather it will just increase division and us and them politics

indeed it will but they started the us and them and tbh my desire to appeal to racists and pander to their ill educated biases is extremely low indeed.
We will remain divided on this issue as will remain divided from those who oppose equal rights and those who opposed same sex marriage

There are reasonable legitimate non-racist concerns about immigration.

In theory perhaps. But in practice your two examples do not hold up to scrutiny despite their widespread usage. Hence one is left to the alternative explanation.

Plus we have heard on here that the main problem with the latest EU entrants is that they are poorer. So we have a combination of xenophobia and discrimination against those less well off than us. Neither make me proud to be British at the moment

Sorry, yeah I was thinking of the total not just EU (actually more like 350k IIRC). Same principle though.

Many of the towns and villages with the least amount of exposure to actual immigrants were the ones that voted remain and have higher levels of racism - as they think that their quaint little English villages are going to be descended on by a horde of spear chucking brown people.

Those towns and cities where the local whites have been more exposed to brown people tend to be less afraid of them.

That phenomena has also be proven time and time again in the psychology world.

"Legitimate concern" is just a euphemism for "I hate n******"

Hmm, its always dangerous to generalise, but perhaps you could explain why Maidenhead and Windsor (77% White British) voted to remain, while Slough (35% White British) voted to leave?

I found another 700k a year who will be a drain on society for the next 20 years and can also stay as long as they want.

There were 695,233 live births in England and Wales in 2014

Plus some in Scotland and Ireland.

As the Asian taxi driver said in the Guardian piece he voted leave as there where too many immigrants. He (or his ancestors) had to come here with a visa. They (generalisation) don't see why their relatives have a hard time getting a visa whilst any old bod from the EU can just turn up. I can see why Slough voted leave.

Sorry, yeah I was thinking of the total not just EU (actually more like 350k IIRC). Same principle though.

Yeah from the same figures Total Net Immigration was 333k for 2015.

But the majority of that (188k) was non-EU, so presumably unaffected by us leaving the EU and "taking our borders back".

Though the 123k Brits emigrating each year probably will be hit.

"There are reasonable legitimate non-racist concerns about immigration."

No there aren't. Nobody is entitled to something over someone else, simply by accident of birth/nationality. **** borders. They were invented to divide and rule people.

If it weren't for immigration, Britain would be inhabited by one bloke chewing a turnip.

Jamba - you bring up an interesting point. Non-EU citizens who have been in Britain for a long time will have tended to get citizenship so therefore got to vote. However an EU citizen in a similar situation would probably not have because they didn't need to, and therefore got no vote. So did the voting rules discriminate against the EU long term residents?
I think perhaps they did.

Question from Ninfan:

Slough (35% White British) voted to leave?

Answer from Jamba:

As the Asian taxi driver said in the Guardian piece he voted leave as there where too many immigrants.

Racism isn't restricted to white folks.

Actually jambas post DOES point to an actual point that DOES withstand scrutiny ie, immigration has been proven to have a negative impact on the wages of previous immigrants. Hence past immigrants often resent new ones.

Dr J - though that argument undermines Toms point that:

Many of the towns and villages with the least amount of exposure to actual immigrants were the ones that voted remain and have higher levels of racism - as they think that their quaint little English villages are going to be descended on by a horde of spear chucking brown people.

Those towns and cities where the local whites have been more exposed to brown people tend to be less afraid of them.

Actually jambas post DOES point to an actual point that DOES withstand scrutiny ie, immigration has been proven to have a negative impact on the wages of previous immigrants. Hence past immigrants often resent new ones.

Could be. Or could be that dark brown people get swept up in the general negative sentiments about slightly brown people.

Dr J - though that argument undermines Toms point that:

Strictly speaking not, as Tom did not claim that the effect he describes is universal. I would guess there are many factors in play, but the net results ain't pretty.

Oh the irony, some of you are going to accuse me of being horrifically racist for saying this - but predominantly Muslim areas often voted leave because poorer white catholics from southern Europe and Eastern Europeans quite often have to move into "their" areas - due to the lower cost of housing.

Which again, kind of backs my point that brexit was about tribalism and racism.

It's all a little bit "Walking Dead" isn't it? Anyway, Britain has managed to utterly cement my misanthropy.

I hope that I live to see the day when western civilisation finally eats itself in a repeat of the 20th century, just so that I can tell my friends - "I told you so."

No there aren't. Nobody is entitled to something over someone else, simply by accident of birth/nationality. **** borders.

Blimey....thats a viewpoint Ive not heard before! 😯

Isn't that how wars start?

Nobody is entitled to something over someone else, simply by accident of birth/nationality

I disagree. When I tried to get a game of football with the Brazil national squad, they told me to **** off.

Apparently you need to be a "Brazilian" 🙁

No, wars usually started because of disputes between the elites of a country. Borders used to suit them as it defined the lands that they could appropriate wealth from - they don't have to do that these days.

My grandfather was a 2nd generation Hungarian (likely Jew but hid it well) who fought the Nazis. One grandmother is half Icelandic half Spanish Roma, none of them had proper papers - if you had the means, emigrating was actually easier back then. You forged a name, papers and pretended that you were British.

I'm the grandchild of illegal pikies and Jews who fought their own country. 😀

"Apparently you need to be a "Brazilian"

So get a razor out then. 🙄

Some sense from Dan the Man

That'll be a first then.

However the civil service used to have an acronym for that sort of thing - LOWSOD, long on words, short on deliverables.

Or in other words, lovely rhetoric, but what did it actually say?

Apart perhaps from, please don't be too nasty to us, we love you really.

Well I suppose he speaks French quite well.

Regarding the 245-2 vote on EU nationals:

[quote=binners ]Probably my MP was one of them. He's a horrible nasty, bigoted, rabidly anti-EU, racist, homophobic Tory ****!!!

I don't think this has been done - I've only skimmed the thread today. The division information is available - if he's a Tory he didn't vote against, he probably abstained like most of them. 5 voted for the motion:
Richard Fuller Zac Goldsmith Philip Hollobone Boris Johnson Tania Mathias

The two who voted against were both Labour MPs:
Holly Lynch Halifax
Conor McGinn St Helens North
- not sure what significance there is in those constituencies

As previously noted, Carswell voted for the motion

Tim Farron and Nick Clegg were both absent - in fact half the Lib Dems were 😉

Oh and Alex Salmond either abstained or wasn't there (it doesn't seem possible to tell the difference - effectively they're the same thing)

http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2016-07-06&number=36&display=allpossible

This is entirely coincidental you understand? [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36746763 ]Nothing to see here, move along...[/url]

Hannan talking sense? I thought he'd finally been exposed for the fraud he is

.

Here's some actual sense

Did Daniel Hannah ever say we would never sign up to freedom of movement ? I recall him being a stronger speaker on law making and other constitutional issues, I personally would rather have no trade deal at all than one wifh freedom of movement and an EU budget contribution but within Leave there are clearly other views.

Most of my constituents will accept a measure of legal immigration, provided they feel that we have some rough control over who arrives and in what numbers. Outside the EU, we could have a skills-based immigration policy that does not discriminate against Commonwealth nationals, and makes space for asylum seekers. Both left and right could live with it. But not until we recover the right to decide for ourselves who can enter Britain.

For pity's sake, we must shut the borders: DANIEL HANNAN says the only way to control who comes here is to leave the EU

tbh it was when the tea party/American healthcare industry paid him to go to america and slag off the NHS, in their attempts to stop Obamacare that he was exposed as a complete idiot, his comments about prostate cancer UK vs US were laughable

[img] ?oh=797adf6db4eca5497655eed63e7bfbb2&oe=57E9E29F[/img]

Loathsome loves Alec

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/andrea-leadsom-tea-party?CMP=fb_gu

Vive la France! Let's do this 😀

LOL @klunk.

[img] [/img]
-- http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/the-daily-mail-has-found-a-reason-holidays-are-now-more-expensive-conveniently-forgets-to-mention-one-thing--Zkg8pxP1tBW

Bloody foreigners charging us more for their currency eh? Cheeky blighters. This is why we should be glad we are leaving Europe. Or something....

🙄

Is that the DM trying to make out, its not the Leave vote that has tanked the pound??

So after Cameron was booed at Wimbledon, is he set to become as unpopular as Tony Blair, when/if recession really bites?

"Taking advantage of the public's lack of financial knowledge"

Nasty money changers, not like when those nice Brexiters took advantage of the public's lack of knowledge. No, no, no.

I'm OK with this - I'm treating it as the next generation of reality TV.

A kind of reality satire.

Actually that's not a bad description of what's happening.

The Daily mail standard line of its everyone else's fault.

Original article is [url= http://www.****/news/article-3681503/Fury-holiday-money-sharks-Exchange-rate-rip-offs-greedy-currency-firms-cash-falling-pound.html ]here[/url] if you [i]really[/i] want to read it for a laugh.

It's fairly desperate - they seem to admit that it [i]might[/i] have something to do with Brexit, but mostly they imply it's those nasty rip-off exchanges profiteering from some kind of unavoidable natural disaster. 🙄

A quick browse suggests the paper is clearly in some kind of editorial turmoil - torn between revelling in all the doom and gloom about markets and house prices, while being vaguely aware that they were staunchly pro-Leave.

As mike says they seem to have fallen back on tried and trusted methods: blame other people.

Once the shit hits the fan they will explain how we were all duped by an elite...only a matter of time before they round on Boris and Gove

Looks like May is the next PM. The other one is giving up.

Looks like May is the next PM. The other one is giving up.

That's democracy for you.

Hurrah for Tory unity

May has said she wont hold another vote and she hates immigration more than she loves trade

Must be the hardest choice that for any Tory to make
Do you like money more than you hate foreigners

Jamby whats your view?

So is Gove back in the running, will he choose to go forward knowing that so few MP's voted for him?

she hates immigration more than she loves trade

You do have to wonder just what the **** she's been doing over the last six years as Home Secretary then don't you?

Elite: couldn't have had a campaign or election more elitist than Remain, Leave weren't even allowed basic access to the civil service.

Tories know how to win, May is the clear favourite and I suspect Leadsom has been advised its too early for her to be PM. Gove won't be back either.

May is the unity candidate and well known amongst Brexiteers for being very much a sceptic, I was a little surprised she didn't come out for Leave. She was pretty clear about no election/no Ref 2 and Article 50 when best for UK. Those lefties / Remainers hoping for Tory implosion / infighting to gift them ammunition are going to be very dissapointed

Osbourne off to China, Singapore and US on a global trade tour. More doors opening than closing, a bright future ahead

BTW China has been devaluing its currency to help boost its economy

appears the 1922 committee has a duty to provide a choice of candidate but who knows