Everything you need to know about gaining respect:
1) do stuff that's worthy of respect
2) don't do stuff that's worthy of disrespect
3) don't go around stamping your feet and demanding respect
And that's it. Pretty sure most people figure this out some time in primary school.
Binners - apart from that report is rubbish from the anti corbyn grauniad. Starmer flatly denied it.
Corbyn and co are not the deluded idiots of the ERG. Try actually reading what they have to say rather than what the anti corbyn propaganda disseminates as myths. Yes corbyn is lukewarm on the EU. But he is no rabid hard brexiteer idiot.
When you actually read his and McDonnells stuff on the EU / second referendum its a very different tone from the editorials in the papers and remember Corbyn has reintroduced a bit of democracy into the party - one outcome of which is thatthere will be a debate on brexit and a second referendum at conference despite his wishes.
I find myself wondering if there is some great master plan and that repeatedly suggesting options that the EU have told you will not be acceptable is luring them in to some sort of trap.
Well boris may have been right about the suicide vest. May has run into the middle of the EU threatening to take us as well as them down.
As they have spent two years protecting themselves and we still down have any plan A B or C... she is gambling on them blinking because she only has two cards left thanks to the red lines and bad politics. Capitulation or suicide.
My thinking is very much in line with Binners. Salzburg, and indeed the strop at No 10 yesterday really laid bare that the Brexiteers really do not understand the balance of power in these negotiations.
There is no plan and a bizarre belief that the EU is going to agree to an arrangement which makes the very existence of the EU pointless ie all the benefits without membership.
Beautiful Stephen Rea piece Deadlydarcy.
The customs posts will be burned. Police will be sent in to protect them. They will be shot at. The army will then be sent in to protect the police and customs officers then off we go again. My kids get to endure what I endured 1971 - 1998. Thanks Boris and Jacob.
My kids get to endure what I endured 1971 – 1998.
Well according to JRM it won’t be so bad. Perhaps like if one of your servants forgets to pack the foie gras for the picnic.
i hope a border in the sea can allow Ireland to flourish. Dublin can take the English speaking banks and Belfast can be the gateway to Europe for the UK...
I really think people want this sorted. That means negotiating a deal that will meet people’s objectives. So you don’t get hung up on the semantics; you do the deal that will protect their jobs, and address some of the concerns that they had during the referendum.”
He underlined his scepticism about the idea of a vote on the final deal, which will be discussed in Liverpool after more than a hundred constituency Labour parties, and the Labour-supporting unions, called for it to be put on the agenda.
“The debate around the next manifesto will go on, but I really worry about another referendum,” he said.
“I’m desperately trying to avoid any rise of xenophobia that happened last time around; I’m desperately trying to avoid giving any opportunity to Ukip or the far right. I think there’s the real risk of that. We’re not ruling out a people’s vote, but there’s a real risk, and I think people need to take that into account when we’re arguing for one.”
McDonnell - does that really sound like the ERG? Or a thoughtfaul man with a principled position?
<div class="bbp-reply-author">tjagain
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<div class="bbp-reply-content">Pure Pish Mooman. 16 yr olds were given the vote in the Scottish referendum and they added a lot to the debate and looked into the issues at least as much as the average voter.
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I dont doubt there are some very informed 16 year olds - but judging by some of the comments that children are posting on this thread to argue for Remain - it would seem the majority are delusional and have an over inflated sense of entitlement that what they want should happen regardless to how the majority have voted ... and I guess that is typical of children in general; they stamp their feet .. they cry .. and start calling those disagreeing with them names.
A consequence of becoming an adult is the knowledge of experience that you dont always get what you want - that sometimes you have got to accept that the world does not revolve around you ... and no matter how many names you call those that disagree with you - you wont get your own way.
I watched a TV program lastnight; Stacey Dooley meeting a group of wacko people in USA preparing for the end of the world. One family on there were obsessed with stories in the media of impending doom .. North Korea, nuclear war etc ... it consumed them, and pretty much pickled their brains to getting on with their lives instead of stressing about the imagined big catastrophe that was gonna turn their world upside down .. they were pretty much seen as loons; but because they were within small communities who all felt the same, they merely fed off each others wacky take on things ... and that program has a lot of similarities with the people who are obsessing and contributing so much on this thread.
In Scotland you are an adult at 16 and once again you show your cant and ignorance. the scottish referendum showed exactly how well 16 and 17 year old young adults can engage in a political process.
and that program has a lot of similarities with the people who are obsessing and contributing so much on this thread.
Only on the brexshitters side. Living in a small bubble reinforcing their predjudices and all agreeing with each other.
I'm spending my last few minutes on the mainland. I have a RIGHT to be here.
To those who have taken that away from me.
**** you.
Where have I mentioned Scotland? it seems you not paying attention kiddo
We should be obsessed with politics, with industry, education and growth of our society.
This thread has shown people have different approaches. Some are inward looking and others outward.
Neither approach really mattered in the past but one group of people are now stopping another group from moving and experiencing on outward looking life.
The highly skilled few will not be impacted severely but the masses will lose out.
Probably I am lacking imagination, but what COULD a NI "backstop" look like? It seems to me that the possibilities all cross some red lines:
No border at all? Obviously the EU can't accept that US-origin chlorinated chicken can enter via Ireland
Border at the Irish Sea - the Unionists will not accept that and probably a lot of the rest of us wouldn't either.
Technological unicorns - don't exist.
What alternative is there? That we say we'll check stuff at the factory, whatever, and the rest don't matter? Hard to see a way forward. And this would apply equally to Corbyn/Starmer etc, no matter what they say now about negotiating better. We dealt ourselves a shit hand of cards when we voted to leave, and that can't change whoever plays the game.
There are two answers. All of the UK stays in " full regulatory alignment" ie Norway option or an administrative border in the irish sea. ( or a united ireland)
May painted herself into this position.
There was talk about creating free trade areas like Jebal Ali to boost trade with the rest of the world.
You could designate NI as one of these. It would have a unique type of border with RoI and the UK which although it might not be soft could be different enough from the past that could be workable.
I don’t think there is an option to satisfy the EU, WTO and the DUP. I know which one of those three I would be prepared to dump...
There are two answers. All of the UK stays in ” full regulatory alignment” ie Norway option or an administrative border in the irish sea. ( or a united ireland)
May painted herself into this position.
This is the way I see it, and both are unacceptable. To be fair, I don't think it was May who painted herself into this, it was the Brexit voters.
I don’t think there is an option to satisfy the EU, WTO and the DUP. I know which one of those three I would be prepared to dump…
It all comes back to May's disastrous early election call.
The Brexiters were so convinced that it would increase their mandate they'd walk it.
Funnily enough I think Corbyn has lost momentum 😂, as it were & if the Tories called one now they might well have a chance.
It may be the only way to fix the mess that brexit has got the country into.
A second referendum is a terrible idea IMO. Why would we compound the original cluster* of having a referendum in the first place by repeating it? I’m convinced a new referendum will be even more pro-brexit than the last. Does anyone think the nutters will somehow not lie and misrepresent like they did last time? And next time they’ll have the whole ‘we told you they’d try and reverse it’ argument. I see absolutely no evidence that the outcome would be any different.
This is my concern also.
I believe that Remain is now the majority view. Even ignoring those who have changed their mind (and there is surely considerably more Leave -> Remain than the other way around), the shift in electorate demographics due to people coming of age or dying off would probably be sufficient to secure a Remain victory in a fair vote.
But. We've already demonstrated that it's trivial to build a campaign on lies and then get away with it scott free. We've proven that appeals to the heart are more effective than appeals to the head. "The people" aren't interested in facts, they want empty promises of impossible ideals with a side order of xenophobia. They have a vastly over-inflated sense of the UK's importance and power rather than seeing us for what we are: a small, arrogant, rainy archipelago at the end of a French cul-de-sac. Two world wars and one world cup doo-dah.
I have no faith at all that another referendum wouldn't go the same way as the last one. Aaron Banks gets out his chequebook, Russia unleashes its social media botnet, The Express and Mail go into overdrive about bureaucrats, foreigners and bendy bananas, and it's 2016 all over again. And if we were to lose another referendum we are properly, catastrophically, irrevocably *ed.
What worries me greatly is that the way this is playing out another referendum might be inevitable, and may the only choice we have in putting a stop to this insanity. And even if if that were to happen and Remain were to secure a landslide victory it wouldn't be over, not by a long chalk. Aside from the fact that we've annihilated our international reputation and influence which will take decades to repair, the gammons have now had a taste of blood and they're not gonna just do a Cameron and walk off into the sunset humming a jaunty tune.
I grew up in the 80s. We had Ronald Regan sabre-rattling with Russia, a washed-up actor with his finger on the nuclear button at an age where most men can't be trusted with the TV remote; Thatcher decimating swathes of industry; adverts on TV showing tombstones reading "AIDS" and warning us not to die of ignorance; wars going on over the ownership of islands; I could go on. And for all the Leavers may cry "project fear!" I have never, ever been as scared for my future and the future of my country as I am right now.
But. We’ve already demonstrated that it’s trivial to build a campaign on lies and then get away with it scott free.
At this point to government has to set out its leave plan and explain it. Writing on the wall no cop outs no bullshit.
The thing with a second referendum is that now the lies of leave are exposed for what they are. Surely enough good political operators on remain side to make that stick
Both tory and labour plans are unicorn fantasies.
Its either a second referendum, someone has the political ability to say - this is a clusterflip ad revoke article 50 ( leading to cries of death of democracy) or a no deal cliff edge brexit in march with no transition.
Those are the choices
delusional and have an over inflated sense of entitlement that what they want should happen
a description of May or Brexies in general?
At this point to government has to set out its leave plan and explain it. Writing on the wall no cop outs no bullshit.
They will not set out the plan until it is “agreed” with the EU. By which time it will be this plan or nothing. This seemed to be the plan all along. Do not formalise anything, do not publish anything, do not have reasonable debates then people will have to take what they are given because the timeline is fixed and the cliff edge is coming.
It will be voted through on the “promise” that certain clauses can be renegotiated or refined later. It will take years to unpick the monumental f ups and even more to fix them.
No one will be happy with the deal...,
No one will be happy with the deal…,
I've said this before. The least-worst case Leave scenario is one that literally no-one wants. It gives us all the downsides of leaving but with none of the perceived benefits that the quitlings want so badly. The only viable options both from a practical point of view and cowtowing to "the will of the people" is either remaining or a no-deal leave. If we're going to end up with BINO then we'd be better off remaining, it'll give us no more "freedoms" than we already have and it'll mean that we will no longer have any control or influence within the EU. As counter-intuitive as it sounds, BINO makes even less sense than hard brexit (though of course it's considerably less destructive at least), it's a compromise which pleases nobody.
Yes corbyn is lukewarm on the EU. But he is no rabid hard brexiteer idiot.
You are raving.
Corbyn has failed to even come close to adequately challenging the Tories over their incompetence. Labour has not presented any meaningful alternative to the current plans or even daring to suggest that it's a bad idea to leave in the first place.
It's pretty obvious that he's hoping for a hard Brexit along with Rees-Mogg etc. Remember that London will *probably* be all right as their local funding won't be cut, but the rest of the country will suffer the consequences. While I'd be delighted if every person who voted Brexit on ignorant and racist grounds lost their jobs and their homes, the wasteland that would be the UK afterward is a pretty big negative.
Utter pish. corbyn is not hoping for a hard brexit. Do you actually read what he says or just rely on the anti Corbyn propaganda? If you actually listen to what he says it is a very different thing to what the media report.
Remember the party is as split as the Tories with rightwingers like hoey voting with the tories. His only option was to take the line he has done. If Labour had taken either a second referendum line or a remain line after the referendum it would have given the tories an open goal to aim at. " Anti democrats" Obstructing the will of the people"
I would much rather he was a lot more pro Europe - but to say he wants a hard brexit is just wrong. Read what he actually has to say and learn something
It’s pretty obvious that he’s hoping for a hard Brexit along with Rees-Mogg etc.
I think what you have there is what's known as a non-sequitur.
You may be right that Corbyn is hoping for a hard brexit, but I don't see it as "pretty obvious" at all. You can't infer that simply because he's not putting up a decent fight. There could be any number of motivations for Labour's (in)actions.
Partisan thinking isn't helpful to the discussion. As much as anyone may love / hate Corbyn or love / hate Labour, it's best to at least try and be impartial here I feel.
Some bloke on R4 yesterday saying that amongst non-voters last time remainers outnumber leaves by two to one. So it will depend heavily on turnout And in 2 years a lot of old people have died and a lot of young people turned 18.
The Labour conference will be interesting. Even if Corbyn is a leaver he's set himself up as a democrat so if the party votes on pro- 2nd ref lines he'll have to listen.
While I’d be delighted if every person who voted Brexit on ignorant and racist grounds lost their jobs and their homes
I'm happy to blame people for being racist, less so for being ignorant. Asking big questions of ignorant people, the mistake here is the fault of those doing the asking.
People who are wilfully ignorant or refuse to allow themselves to become better informed however, **** those guys.
Molgrips - I wouldn't be at all suprised if thats policy after the conference. Its now time to get off that fence
And yes - Corbyn has restored a lot of democracy to the party even knowing that means he will not get everything his way.
and that program has a lot of similarities with the people who are obsessing and contributing so much on this thread.
Blah blah blah, "people on the other side just throw insults and don't bring anything to the debate", says someone slinging insults and bringing nothing to the debate. Try pinning a leaver down on what they're looking forward to when we leave and it almost always goes silent these days - nothing promised is looking likely to be delivered, and the consequences of leaving look equally likely to be disasterous.
Farage says no deal is not a problem , not really a surprise though is it?.
ION,
Corbyn is not playing a long game, and he will not drop his support for Brexit just because the vast majority of Labour supporters want him to.
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Both tory and labour plans are unicorn fantasies.
True. The difference is that the Tories are saying "It's either our unicorn fantasy or it's a disorderly disastrous hard brexit and anyone who says otherwise smells", whereas for Labour it's aspirational and they're not making stupid ultimatums.
And it comes back to the same thing as ever- we're still in fantasy brexit land. You can't really blame Labour for playing fantasy brexit when that's the game their opponents are playing. If they keep doing so once/if the Tories ever start playing actual brexit then that's very different
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Corbyn is complicit in this mess by his inaction.
He's supposed to be a leader but Labour, like the Conservatives, have said and done nothing of any relevance over the last two years.
“You can’t really blame Labour for playing fantasy brexit when that’s the game their opponents are playing.”
Thats a really poor excuse for Labour’s ineffectiveness!
I’m liking the UKIP, Farage mugshot condoms.
Presumably the message is “if you really want to **** it up, get yourself a Farage” 😳
He’s supposed to be a leader
Moreover, he's supposed to be the leader of the opposition. Not really seeing much opposing of late.
Labour ceased to be a genuine opposition party with the death of the "great" John Smith in 94, there has been no leader since who has had even a sliver of John's integrity and honesty.
Thats a really poor excuse for Labour’s ineffectiveness!
You do actually know that they are a political party with aspirations of governing don't you? Ignoring the 'will of the people', when it's been expressed as emphatically and unarguably as it has, is political suicide, especially when many of the people voting out are your core voters! It's amusing cos I bet the very same people who criticise labour for not being a serious party of government, are the same people who want them to oppose the result of the referendum.
Like others, I also would like them to be more anti and lead the case against brexit, but they're doing the only thing they can do. This is the tories mess, it's simple political common sense to keep it that way as long as possible. It's fairly unlikely there'll be an election before March, I'm pretty sure labour's strategy is to play the 'cleaning up the tories mess' card, just like the tories did after the financial crash. This could not only keep labour in power for a long time, but they'll be able to use the crisis to bring in some transformative if not revolutionary policies (UBI for example).
Look I know leave won but by no stretch can 52:48, more than two years ago and under the circumstances that it took place, be considered emphatic and unarguable.
If labour’s policy really is to enable a shit Tory Brexit in the hope that they will then get to win an election or two off the back of it then they are actually worse than the Tories in my book.
then they are actually worse than the Tories in my book.
The alternate way of looking at it is that they do bail the tories out before the shit hits the fan there is doubt the tories would use that against them. The Labour heartlands were pro brexit and would be vulnerable to the hard right liars pretending to give a **** about them. No point dodging Brexit if the rabid right are allowed free reign over the country and the Labour "moderates" regain the party power to drag it ever rightwards in the dim hope the traditional voters wont notice.
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If labour’s policy really is to enable a shit Tory Brexit in the hope that they will then get to win an election or two off the back of it then they are actually worse than the Tories in my book.
I think their policy is to wait in the wings til it becomes obvious to everyone that there's going to be a shit Tory Brexit and then stop it. Could be wrong but that's basically how you crack the "will of the people" problem, you need to wait til there's a solid, shitty brexit on the table before you can oppose it.
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But then I also think they thought this would have happened a year ago, the fact that the Tories haven't even managed to deliver a shit brexit at this point is pretty much incredible.