[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Look at the people involved FFS! You expected better from them? You didn't see it coming? Seriously?

I have. No. Yes. Seriously.

The only surprise was the fact that they got away with it. Surprise and disappointment as it exposed a side to our society that I thought had been largely eradicated. I was wrong, badly wrong.

TMH appreciate the sentiment but let's just let it go, its more a sign to step back and let people get on with agreeing with each other.

Still waiting for answers (along with Godot) and your arguments were flawed - but you won!! Ends and means, ends and means 😉

Perhaps we could have some sort of'vote' whereby we decide which side is in the majority?

If the UK is being flooded by immigrants then why has unemployment been falling steadily?

dont forget wages recovering. Ironically, most strongly since the admission of Romania and Bulgaria - not that there is a causal link in either direction 😉

Sounds like a good argument for Scottish independence.

We offered them that, remember? Interestingly they decided against it. Maybe they were feart of the consequences of independence?

Unlike the brave English and Welsh 😀

but you don't get to be SIO of Invesco Perpetual by being either dull or stupid.

I don't really care that she was high up in Banking TBH, Having seen and heard bankers over the last few years, none have massively impressed me with their stunning intellect.

I asked a potential MP about AV and she literally didn't have a clue what I was taking about, had no views on the recent referendum that had taken place, and didn't seem to appreciate that she may well be in a coalition govt. For a prospective MP not to understand her wider environment hints at the way her brain works. (ie not very well) when I said dull, I meant not sharp...not boring...

Think that one was [u]just about[/u] a draw...

But it turns out it wasn't, was it? 😆

If the UK is being flooded by immigrants then why has unemployment been falling steadily?

tenuous linkage there/

[img] [/img]

So there is no link between immigration and employment levels? How strange people have been banging on like there was, like importing people was keeping people out of work? If you could explain the maths of an increasing population and falling unemployment can't be linked.

That chart doesn't seem to have been updated since 2009. Most likely the correlation no longer holds.

That chart doesn't seem to have been updated since 2009. Most likely the correlation no longer holds.

Heavy winter snowfall in 2010 increased the popularity of duvets. Double whammy!

Frankly I'm amazed anyone died from becoming tangled in their bedsheets!

Frankly I'm amazed anyone died from becoming tangled in their bedsheets!

And it would be wrong to speculate on which way they would have voted in the referendum, should they have lived

So there is no link between immigration and employment levels?

because of regional factors, employment sectors, etc, things are not as simple as you want to make out.

The point is that the government will have a lot more control over how it wants to manage the country - if it wants to effectively carry on with high levels of immigration then it can, if it decides it only needs baristas for Costa and Starbucks, then it can also do that by only issueing appropriate visas, etc.

If it decides it wants to let capitilisaton and globalisation run riot and lay waste to areas of the country and the workers there, then it can.

If the people of the UK decide that they don't like living in that sort of society, perhaps they want to move to a high taxation environment like Sweden, then they can vote out that government and install one that has the power to change things without being hampered by the EUs vision of how things should work.

If the people of the UK decide that they don't like living in that sort of society, perhaps they want to move to a high taxation environment like Sweden, then they can vote out that government and install one that has the power to change things without being hampered by the EUs vision of how things should work.

I can't really think of much the UK tried to do that the eu stopped, any ideas? Lots of things that could be done to improve the lot of people but they chose not to rather than being stopped.

I don't really care that she was high up in Banking TBH, Having seen and heard bankers over the last few years, none have massively impressed me with their stunning intellect.

Perhaps you should widen your sample. I met many bankers with very high intellectual and commercial/financial skills including those who have advised and supported my business. I wouldn't have chosen them otherwise

I asked a potential MP about AV and she literally didn't have a clue what I was taking about, had no views on the recent referendum that had taken place, and didn't seem to appreciate that she may well be in a coalition govt. For a prospective MP not to understand her wider environment hints at the way her brain works. (ie not very well) when I said dull, I meant not sharp...not boring...

I agree that her experience and knowledge in some areas does appear to rule her out of the job. But we are now in the world of #posttruthpolitics and not understanding or at least pretending not to understand basic macro and monetary economics, for example, didn't hold Salmon back. Indeed his bllx on £ seemed to enhance his standing among the great unwashed.

TurnerGuy - Member

As it stands even if they voted a Corbynesque labour in, he can't renationalise the railways, for example, as it is against the EUs goals.

You mean like when the east coast line was renationalised in 2009? (then quickly reprivatised because it was doing too well)

NW - there was nothing quick about it. Ran until last year as a very profitable government backed ltd company. Outside of SeaContainer's ownership it was the happiest I'd seen the staff.

pretending not to understand basic macro and monetary economics, for example, didn't hold Salmon back

Nothin can hold Salmon back.

The instinct to return to the ancestral breeding grounds is irresistible.

Waterfalls, bears or economics are no barrier to the mighty Salmon.

Perhaps you should widen your sample. I met many bankers with very high intellectual and commercial/financial skills including those who have advised and supported my business

Please say you do still dine with MPs as surely not everything was [s] you just telling porkies[/s] you trolling?

if it decides it only needs baristas for Costa and Starbucks, then it can also do that by only issueing appropriate visas, etc.

Do you think it likely that people will want to apply for visas, pay, wait and so on to do jobs like that?

If the people of the UK decide that they don't like living in that sort of society, perhaps they want to move to a high taxation environment like Sweden

Well WE COULD UNTIL THE LEAVERS STOPPED US! FFS!

My sample of bankers is probably wider than you'd imagine TBH. but that's not really relevant.

I tend to agree, "post-politics" seems to be a world where people involved in politics don't seem to understand the wider philosophy of politics beyond the narrow scope of their chosen Parliamentary Party's "current manifesto" There doesn't seem to be an appreciation that "the others" may have an equally valid POV...You end up with the shit storm we currently find ourselves in.

, perhaps they want to move to a high taxation environment like Sweden, then they can vote out that government and install one that has the power to change things without being hampered by the EUs vision of how things should work.

WE COULD UNTIL THE LEAVERS STOPPED US! FFS!

Strange use of past tense there - I think what you meant to say was

"well, theres a possibility that we might not be able to in the future, but nobody really knows as the outcome of future negotiations over our relationship with the EU remains unpredictable! FFS!"

Or even if we're actually going to leave, eh Ninfan?

Strange use of past tense there

Yes, it was a hypothetical 2 years in the future post. But I find it tragically ironic that anti-immigration people and leavers suggest we move to a different EU country... 🙄

Sweden is in the EU.

That was a test to see if anyone was paying attention...

They are for now, but who knows...

[url= http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/swedes-tell-britain-if-you-leave-the-eu-well-follow/ ]Swedes tell Britain: if you leave the EU, we’ll follow[/url]

Just start a petition

or actually mount a legal challenge

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-law-idUSKCN0ZK0HX?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_content=577a1fb504d301652e39abaf&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

@TurnerGuy thank you for posting those utube vids.

[b]Some Swedes when polled[/b], tell Britain: if you leave the EU, we’ll [s]follow[/s] [b]think about doing the same[/b]

FTFY

Reformers in Sweden are aghast at the prospect of Brexit, seeing Britain as their main ally in trying to fight off protectionism

Wait.. is the EU protectionist or anti-protectionist?

Wait.. is the EU protectionist or anti-protectionist?

And he was from an EU country.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/wales-has-changed-its-mind-over-brexit-and-would-now-vote-to-stay-in-the-eu-poll-finds-a7120246.html ]Wales regrets...?[/url]

Wales regrets...?

you'd probably get the same thing in England.

No a big surprise that the southern hick countries that ****ed themselves over due to their own ineptitude like Italy and Greece hate the EU. Austria is no surprise, my Spanish friends wake up in Linz half expecting a Nazi banner to be draped from the balcony of the Altes Rathaus.

Wales regrets?

90% of respondents thought the question was about remaining in Euro 2016 not the European Union.

I honestly wonder if people seeing Europeans being nice to them at the Euros has had a small effect?

Wales regrets...?

It may well do, but at least they've got a decent football team. What have we got? eh?[b] WHAT?!!!![/b]

Frankly I'm amazed anyone died from becoming tangled in their bedsheets!

And he was from an EU country.

Wales regrets...?

Because those same pollsters sucessfully predicted the outcome of the referendum so well over the past months 😆

Not at the time Shirley?

He was from Austria all his life.

But was Austria in the EU when he was pontificating over pussy?

No that was in the 1920s or something 🙂

I note that George O has declared economic warfare on the EU with a cut in the company tax rate. Fiscal dumping at its crudest. Or how to really p off the people you will soon be negotiating with.

Right so we've had pages & months of Brexiteers spouting forth about a brighter future...
can anyone please explain what this so-called brighter future looks like and how they can guarantee it in the medium to long term.

'Cos so far all the @£$3w193$ politico's who promised it have left the building... a bit like Elvis.

Right so we've had pages & months of Brexiteers spouting forth about a brighter future...
can anyone please explain what this so-called brighter future looks like

My wife just texted me that she's just met someone who was glad he voted out as the UK Coal mines will all re-open as we'll stop importing coal from Europe....

can anyone please explain what this so-called brighter future looks like

This royal throne of kings, this scepter’d isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall,
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England

note that George O has declared economic warfare on the EU with a cut in the company tax rate. Fiscal dumping at its crudest. Or how to really p off the people you will soon be negotiating with

except those companies will be thinking about higher operating costs from potential tarrifs, currency devaluation, whatever, and considering what to do - so it's possibly sensible to try and pre-empt with positive action.

Or he could wait for companies to relocate ?

when the summer finally kicks in people on this thread will be complaining that it is too hot...

Grim 🙁

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=EUR&view=1M

Even better for my upcoming holiday...

Is it that grim, I'm not convinced. If it plunges below levels seen previously then that is grim, but right now it is only where it bobbed around between 2009 and 2013.

so it's possibly sensible to try and pre-empt with positive action.

+1

But why worry too much about negotiations, we've stuck 2 fingers up, so lets look to the future and just get on with it. If the economy is holding up, while the EU continues to struggle then we'll be in a better position to negotiate. Right now the EU zone isn't looking great, look at the row yesterday between Italy and the ECB over state aid to failing banks.

just get on with it

Get on with what, exactly?

Get on with what, exactly?

Get on with sitting around watching the Conservative party try to find someone with half a clue to sort this mess out.

Is it that grim,

I'd say an 11% drop in less than 10 days is grim

Get on with what, exactly?

Article 50, obviously.

Make all the assumptions that we are going to have to work to WTO rules, and anything better than that will be a bonus.

But we're not actually a standalone WTO member that can work to WTO rules. We'd need to re-join or at least have a change in our membership ratified by the other members.

can anyone please explain what this so-called brighter future looks like and how they can guarantee it in the medium to long term.

[b]Michael Gove MP ?@Gove2016 8h8 hours ago
We need to renegotiate a new relationship with the EU, based on free trade and friendly cooperation. #Gove2016[/b]

This sounds like a top idea. Wouldn't it be great if someone started a group of European countries based on free trade and friendly cooperation. I can't believe it doesn't exist already... 😉

it did, but got hijacked by 'ever closer union'

But we're not actually a standalone WTO member that can work to WTO rules. We'd need to re-join or at least have a change in our membership ratified by the other members

well we'll have to do that then, after article 50. We cannot article 50, wait for it to expire, then join the WTO. With a limbo period in between.

I think a 31 year low in USGBP is significant.

As is three property funds suspending trading.

And Mark Carney saying that the effects of Brexit are 'crystallizing'.

This sounds like a great idea. Michael Gove is a genius. Wouldn't it be a great idea if someone started a group of European countries based on free trade and friendly cooperation. I can't believe it doesn't exist already...

You could say they did a while back, it was called the EEC. After a while it went a bit pear shaped, ended up calling itself first the EC, then the EU, got a flag and an anthem, and the people of the UK decided, for better or worse, to get out. 😉

well we'll have to do that then, after article 50. We cannot article 50, wait for it to expire, then join the WTO. With a limbo period in between.

I wonder if the leavers thought this was what they might get: Nigel Lawson

to finish, in a word, the job which Margaret Thatcher started,

And Nigel Lamont says Brexit is a chance to finish Thatcher's work.

Any comments Ernie?

Edit: too slow again!

By the way, £ at lowest since about 1985 and going down, property funds starting to suspend, BoE saying Britexit issues are [b]starting[/b] to crystallise - not a glowing vote of confidence in the country.

What was the glorious future the leavers promised, where is their plan, can they even agree on what it was the 51.9% voted for (as opposed to voted against - we all know what they voted against - at least I think I do, I'm not even sure of that now)?

Was it a workers paradise free from immigrants stealing jobs, was it a libertarian capitalist paradise free from regulation, was it democratic paradise where you get to choose you leader (how is the election of the be PM going), or was it just for chaos as Nigel Farage suggested today (at least he said he thought chaos was good)?

As we'll still be members of the EU and will be forbidden from negotiating.

Just join the WTO immediately at the end of EU membership, surely we don't have to negotiate to join ?

I think a 31 year low in USGBP is significant.

I thought you lefties were all for it:

We get our WTO membership as part of our EU membership - to use the National Trust analogy its a bit like getting discounted access to joint managed English Heritage sites. As full EU members we are precluded from requesting a change to our membership until we leave the EU. This would have to be ratified by the other WTO members, including the 27+1 EU members which we'd just p$$ed off.

You'd think somebody would've made a plan.

I thought you lefties were all for it:

yeah but we could buy our bike bits from raleigh in thoses days 15% on the price of a groupset now is not to be sniffed at 😉

Nigel Lawson? Finishing Thatchers work? Hang on a minute! You mean that this isn't going to usher in a socialist workers republic, after all?

[img] [/img]

In fact, it'll mean the complete opposite of that? A sort of neoliberal theme park?

Well I never saw that one coming!

At some point the powers that be will work out its easier to cook up a deal that pleases most of the 48% and a decent number of the 52% than it is to work something out to please the 52%.

I wonder what happens then?

I wonder what happens then?

Well that would answer the question as to why Boris wanted to buy a load of water canons

TurnerGuy - Member
Just join the WTO immediately at the end of EU membership, surely we don't have to negotiate to join ?

It's that simple? Why didn't anyone think about that before?

I think a 31 year low in USGBP is significant.

As is three property funds suspending trading.

And Mark Carney saying that the effects of Brexit are 'crystallizing'.

As I'm 53 I can remember the last time the £/$ was here, clearly the world didn't end or we wouldn't all be here today. £/€ relatively stronger of course.

These retail targetted property funds are fundamentally poorly designed. Daily liquidity offered to investors but how do you value property of a daily basis and as it takes months to sell a property the liquidity offered is materially mismatched to the underlying asset. Thus suspending trading is inevitable from time to time.

I am a little bit lost as to how the effects of Brexit are crystalising as we haven't left the EU. What the market and business is doing is trying to work out what might happen foing forward. As our plans become clearer I would expect a recovery in Sterling.

Why did no one have a full working plan in order? Winging it with a countries economy doesn't sound like a good fiscal plan.

Jamba - I can also remember the shed that was Britain in the mid-80s. Makes today's austerity look minor.

Also my suspicion is that the reason the stock market is doing better than the pound is that crafty foreign based types are buying on the cheap. If the pound rises the market will be exposed to the underlying realities of an economy that is about to test its ABS systems.

Could be wrong - I am after all a simple engineer not a financial seer and visionary.

financial seer and visionary

What sourcery do you speak of?

As I'm 53 I can remember the last time the £/$ was here, clearly the world didn't end or we wouldn't all be here today. £/€ relatively stronger of course.

So it was all ok then? Is it all ok now?

What sourcery do you speak of?

Why did no one have a full working plan in order?

Because [u]nobody[/u] expected Leave to win.

So it was all ok then? Is it all ok now?

<Checks out window> Sky is still where its supposed to be, no plumes of smoke evident... In my lifetime I've heard nothing but constant predictions of imminent disaster via everything from bird flu to nuclear war, amazingly we're still here, as no doubt most of us will be tomorrow...