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Interesting piece on C4 news just now - Lloyds of London aren't waiting for the politicians.
And are doing what?
grass roots anti-establishment vote was Leave.
If you think Boris, Farage, IDS & Gove are "Men of the People" then you are in for one F of a shock!
Rightly or wrongly, they feel they've got nothing to lose:
So the deprived state of Doncaster is solely because of the EU, eh?
I do love how people failed to realise that the depravity of their local area doesn't solely or probably even a tad lay at the fault of the EU but by UK governments over the years failing to address the issues at hand i.e. helping growth of alternate industries to replace those that were lost.
Now they've likely just increased or prolonged the depravity due to this "hey UK government, here's a big F U vote".
So the deprived state of Doncaster is solely because of the EU, eh?
No, but it was probably their only chance to say FU and screw up everyone else's lives....
Now they've likely just increased or prolonged the depravity due to this "hey UK government, here's a big F U vote".
Turkeys voting for xmas etc...
I'm all for building a wall and moving all the outers North of it and they can sort themselves out....
People associate the political elite of the UK with the political elite of the EU - they're all the same faceless lot who don't give a toss about them, who seem to prosper while they get left behind. General Elections don't seem to make a difference no matter who is voted in. They want a change from the norm and the political elite of the last 20 years of governments that they feel have failed them.
But they just got the same elite this time drawn from the [s]bastard[/s]tough love end of the scale.
They cannot possibly think this just ushered in an era of change other than more so only worse.
What I find rather saddening is why it took Brexit to happen before those in the EU started asking questions. Juncker and his un-elected cronies are clear evidence of everything that is wrong with the EU.
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/03/angela-merkel-to-oust-jean-claude-juncker-as-europe-splits-deepe/ ]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/03/angela-merkel-to-oust-jean-claude-juncker-as-europe-splits-deepe/[/url]
I suspect Juncker will be forced out within a month or so.
[quote=ninfan ][s]Rightly or[/s] wrongly, they feel they've got nothing to lose:
There, that was easy and should save time
[quote=jambalaya ]@ninfan indeed, those Remainers here don't seem able to understand these people's logic. They don't care about what's on the side of a bus. Many Remainers here could not appreciate theirs was the establishment campaign and that the grass roots anti-establishment vote was Leave.
You seem to be having trouble comprehending. Yes, we get why lots of people voted to Leave - clearly there were all sorts of reasons, most of them wrong (as in the people aren't going to get what they voted for). Some people might not care what's on the side of a bus, but I've seen enough reports of people saying they voted because of that extra £350m for the NHS. Don't claim this as some sort of mandate to leave and screw those people even more.
[quote=flanagaj ]What I find rather saddening is why it took Brexit to happen before those in the EU started asking questions. Juncker and his un-elected cronies are clear evidence of everything that is wrong with the EU.
Which is where I'm really conflicted. I really dislike Juncker - because he doesn't care about the individual countries, let alone the people, simply about the project. Hence (well not just him, but the rest of it) why I was very tempted to vote Leave - it just wasn't the pragmatic thing to do, and I suspect a 52/48 vote for Remain would have exerted sufficient pressure to change things - albeit somewhat slower.
the poor and disenfranchised who have just voted to be kicked in the nuts with an even bigger boot..
Rightly or wrongly, they feel they've got nothing to lose:
Can I blame fatcha yet?
Even worse for the disenfranchised outers the next few years of Brexit induced recession will hit them the hardest,
Does anyone actually believe that our new rightwing government hobbled by the cost of Brexit will start funding libraries and Surestart again, let alone investing in high wage jobs for the poorest towns?
As ninfans video nicely highlights, austerity has been the icing on the turdcake legacy of 30 years of rightwing government and the ludicrous myth of trickledown prosperity.
...... Just waiting until the next shite pedaling jisweasel demagogue comes along, with a new bogeyman to blame and society & politics gets ever more divisive.
kimbers - MemberCan I blame fatcha yet?
Not really, about a week ago on this thread you posted a picture of rubbish piled up high in a street to emphasis just how bad things were in the UK in the 1970s.
Thatcher sorted all that out, don't you know ?
Although the point you were making was how awful life was in the UK before we joined the EEC.
No, Ernie , my point was that the EU saved us from that....... 😆
My point was that people saying that life in the UK pre-EU was a rose tinted utopia of peace and prosperity were wrong
Thank you for telling me what I really think though
Which is exactly what I said your point was.
Actually that came across rather aggressive ernie, sorry
What I'm trying to say is that we could have joined the EU and [u]not[/u] spent the next 40 years channelling the fruits of free movement and the single market away from the post industrial areas and into the London property uberbubble
next 40 years channelling the fruits of free movement and the single market away from the post industrial areas and into the London property uberbubble
@kimbers there is a massive tax transfer from London/SE to the rest of the country. London property is as it is due to foreign buyers, people love London, our democracy rule of law and open and welcoming society. We are far more open than many (most) other countries. We do have a North/South issue which is particularly stubborn given the move to kore technology and service based industries.
As an aside have a very smart friend (leader in cognitive behavioural therapy - invited to be a member of the Royal Society) say Farage would be unemployed now. He had no understanding that as we are still full members of the EU and would be for years yet Farage was still a fully paid up MEP along with all our representatives.
jambalaya - Member
people love London, our democracy rule of law and open and [b]welcoming society[/b]
😆
Newsnight reporting that investment funds pulling money out of the UK economy 'exactly mirrors the start of the banking crisis'
Brilliant! Just ****ing brilliant, you cockwombles! 🙄
But we got our country back!
Actually that came across rather aggressive ernie, sorry
No worries, I have a Corbyn-like ability to shrug off that sort of stuff.
London property is as it is due to foreign buyers, people love London, our democracy rule of law
Especially the Russian oligarchy/mafia.
Especially the Russian oligarchy/mafia.
Damm EU-Ski's at least getting out means we can stop them coming in 😉
I don't think jambalaya wants to stop these foreign buyers who love our democracy and rule of law from coming to London.
He wants to be open and welcoming to the Russian oligarchy and Saudis who push up London property prices.
In or out of the EU we can still guarantee that.
Newsnight reporting that investment funds pulling money out of the UK economy 'exactly mirrors the start of the banking crisis'
As someone who saw that up close from July 2007 onwards I can tell you our current situation is nothing like that at all. Add to that the banks are materially better capitalised than they where back then.
We've had a retail orientated UK property fund closed, I thought everyone wanted such "buy to let" investment vehicles closed anyway ?
A little short term volatility is a price worth paying for a brighter future
Yeah! Stick it to the man! Putin the homo-erotic shark wrestler and his corrupt gangster mates are going to be absolutely gutted that we're going to be out of the EU, aren't they?
Hahahaaaaaaaaa! Brilliant!
Oh..... hang on a minute..... just thinking about it, they're going to be bloody ecstatic instead, arent they? For all manner of reasons.
Cheers for that too, you cockwombles! 😕
A 'price worth paying' Eh Jammers?
From his masters voice. Funny how all the people, from that bitch onwards, who say that things are a 'price worth paying' are never actually the ones picking up the cheque
A little short term volatility is a price worth paying for a brighter future
Ah yes the brighter future, will there be free cake, I like cake, tell me there will be cake...
Of course the brighter future is not available to everyone, and many will probably suffer along the way but it's worth it. Anyone told us what the brighter future actually looks like and hasn't changed their mind or run so far from it they are nowhere to be seen?
Hahahaaaaaaaaa! Brilliant!
Oh..... hang on a minute..... just thinking about it, they're going to be bloody ecstatic instead, arent they? For all manner of reasons.
Not to mention Murdoch, who's behind the scenes orchestrating this whole affair: he's got exactly what he wanted.
A little short term volatility is a price worth paying for a brighter future
A little?!
You obviously have a talent for understatement! Take a look around you Jamba - there's a lot of grief already & worse to come!
open and welcoming society.
Mmmm, yes I'm sure it seems REALLY welcoming in the current atmosphere....
FFS..
And so the frightfully amusing game continues. Is it all simply super fun?
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/04/boris-johnson-backs-andrea-leadsom-for-prime-minister/ ]Boris back whtasername[/url]
Does anyone seriously care what this spineless idiot thinks any more? Surely to christ you can't lend this buffoons words a single solitary scrap of credibility. But the parlour game at the top of the Tory party continues. Its all a jolly wheeze isn't it. Its a good job theres nothing important at stake eh?
And as for his preferred [s]method to stab Gove in the back[/s] candidate? [url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/that-andrea-leadsom-sounds-like-a-right-****g-nightmare-says-britain-20160703110101 ]Well....[/url]
Does anyone seriously care what this spineless idiot thinks any more?
I would have thought by now people would have stopped underestimating Boris, getting out of this race is a win. He will return.
There's already an amusing effort for Brexiters to boycott Easyjet as they are looking to relocate to a new HQ within the EU
I like the concept that a true outer can only buy truly British, hope, renthal and orange only an an outies bike
Leadsom was my constituency MP when I lived in Brackley. I went to a hustings and asked her views on AV. she didn't know how AV worked (but didn't like it) and dismissed working with any other party as unworkable Seemed to be a "toe the line" Tory, mind you, in Brackley you could pin a blue rosette on a turd and it would win. She's not leader material. Shes far too dull and stupid for that.
I can't believe that some Remainers appear to be not very nice people :
[url= https://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/nigel-farage-is-receiving-online-death-threats-in-the-wake-o?utm_term=.nlB500DQK#.to32775X8 ]Nigel Farage Is Receiving Online Death Threats In The Wake Of The Brexit Result[/url]
Kimbers was that you ?
I can't believe that some Remainers appear to be not very nice people
U OK HUN? XX
She's not leader material. Shes far too dull and stupid for that.
You may be correct on the first bit but you don't get to be SIO of Invesco Perpetual by being either dull or stupid.
A little short term volatility is a price worth paying for a brighter future
What an utterly heartless thing to say.
It's not your job that's at risk due to short term volatility, is it? You've put OTHER people's jobs at risk for your ideology.
Nigel Farage Is Receiving Online Death Threats In The Wake Of The Brexit Result
144 Characters would only be the introduction of what the odious little shit of a racist prick would deserve. Rewatching some game of thrones, it's reminded me of a few things
Kimbers - no, they just have to be non-EU. So SRAM / Shimano = OK, Campagnolo = baaaad
Ernie - Farage should not be getting dead threats (if fact he should be forcibly made to live on to see what a disaster he and his kind have caused), but given a leave sympathiser did actually kill a remain campaigner I can understand (though not justify) those threats. This is a horrible situation and tension is running high on the bad of this split decision for leaving.
molgrips - Member
A little short term volatility is a price worth paying for a brighter future
What an utterly heartless thing to say.It's not your job that's at risk due to short term volatility, is it? You've put OTHER people's jobs at risk for your ideology.
Wow - take some breaths and pause in the Jamba baiting.
"A little short term volatility" - clues, "little"....."short term"...."volatility" - we accept each of these things often and in many cases as a matter of course. Lets take the weaker currency and its impact on our trade deficit as an example. In the short term, a weaker currency actually makes things worse (J curve affect) before it makes the better (time taken for Q to adjust while P adjusts immediately). So in essence, nothing wrong with what Jambas says, other than....
The impact may be/will be longer than short term - indeed we may face considerable (and unnecessary) uncertainty for some period. Utter folly.
The better future - it will either be (1) slightly worse or (2) much the same depending on the out come of the negotiations. Unlikely to be better. How can making trade and investment harder and less attractive produce a better future.
Apart from that, nothing exceptional about the point - just the idea of a trade off between ST and longer term effects. Ease off tigers.....
Wow - take some breaths and pause in the Jamba baiting.
It wasn't Jamba baiting. It's not personal, even though it sounds like it.
Point is that leavers have potentially jeopardised everyone's currently fragile security, on a mostly ideological basis. Don't you agree?
As you say, things may not get better or may not return to normal, but in the process whilst the headline GDP figures may go up and down a bit, actual individual lives could quickly be thrown into all sorts of turmoil and difficulty.
It's not your job that's at risk due to short term volatility, is it? You've put OTHER people's jobs at risk for your ideology.
indeed. If you look at this whole sorry debacle, from start to finish, all the main protagonists have just been able to view it as a big game. Its not real. Not for them. insulated as they are from the fallout by wealth and power.
Consequence are for little people.
But then what do we expect? These same people are from the caste who caused the last financial meltdown, devastating the lives of millions, before shrugging, and walking away from it, their fortunes intact and untouched by the chaos they brought down on others
Now, with the same casual disregard, they bring you Financial Armageddon Part 2! The Sequel! Also a Price Worth Paying!
.... for you, not me..... obviously...
David Lammy also reporting 'thousands upon thousands' of abusive emails, tweets etc. I'm not saying most Leavers are racists but most racists are Leavers...
indeed. If you look at this whole sorry debacle, from start to finish, all the main protagonists have just been able to view it as a big game. Its not real. Not for them. insulated as they are from the fallout by wealth and power.
Or in Jamba's case by living outside the UK, safe in an EU country. For now.
Have I got that wrong Jamba?
But we got our country back!
Not yet we haven't. It ain't over until the fat lady sings, and she ain't been elected yet.
take some breaths and pause in the Jamba baiting
Was it different when you spent pages and pages reminding him and mocking him for not having answered your basic questions?
Its not even fair to call it baiting either
Its not unreasonable to point out he is unaffected by the decision and he has gambled with other people livelihoods for his political gain
Not only that but he will remain an EU citizen.
But we got our country back!
Quite the reverse I'd say. We handed it over to a very dubious collective of racists and profiteers.
the Pound is going south again!
My main concern is that there will suddenly be a fall in the amount of sexy southern European women to oggle in the capital.
Now, if I'm ever single again, I'm either going to have to choose between the result of centuries of inbreeding among the descendants of rodents (upper classes) or fat, alcoholic, barely comprehensible chavs.
[b]1)[/b] It's not your job that's at risk due to short term volatility, is it? [b]2)[/b] You've put OTHER people's jobs at risk for your ideology.
1) To the contrary
2) You really need to look at the medium and long term prospects and the risks of being in the EU to answer that question.
Merkel, Hollande seem to have effectively kicked the eurozone debt crises into the long grass out of sight of the majority and here in the UK there isn't an appreciation of how sick the European economies are with 25-50% youth unemployment.
You are also ignoring the fact that eurosceptism is higher in many parts of Europe than it is in the UK. We are not alone is being fed up with this failing political project
Wanting to live in a democracy where we have control of our own destiny and not be part of a political Union project unlike any anywhere else in the world, if thats an ideology then yes please.
Wanting to live in a democracy where we have control of our own destiny
...is a pipedream.
the Pound is going south again!
Market comment that this is quite possibly due to negative sentiment on Italian Banks and the German stock market (still down since 23rd but FTSE is higher). Very hard to decipher these day to day moves. Quite possibly short term profit taking ahead of BoE statement of trades just squaring positions.
It wasn't Jamba baiting. It's not personal, even though it sounds like it.
It does and is now over-stepping the mark
Point is that leavers have potentially jeopardised everyone's currently fragile security, on a mostly ideological basis. Don't you agree?
Wholeheartedly.
As you say, things may not get better or may not return to normal, but in the process whilst the headline GDP figures may go up and down a bit, actual individual lives could quickly be thrown into all sorts of turmoil and difficulty.
In my case, Brexit will create meaningfully negative consequences, hence I am unhappy about it. And the basis was fundamentally flawed, which makes me angry. I also unleashed an undercurrent of xenophobia which makes me disappointed/ashamed.
Yes, I disagreed strongly with nearly every point Jambas and VL made - but hopefully without being personal and rude to him. He knows what I think about the arguments but that is different.
Time for some perspective and less personal stuff - leave that for the chief
...is a pipedream.
Its one that the rest of the World seems to believe in
Wanting to live in a democracy where we have control of our own destiny and not be part of a political Union project unlike any anywhere else in the world, if thats an ideology then yes please.
Europe needs to integrate, to resist the other two great empires of the world - America and China.
You are a zebra Jamby.
Wanting to live in a democracy where we have control of our own destiny
Can/will you please explain to me the idea of sovereignty that has been bandied around by the Leave campaign? Please don't resort to Jambafacts or Jambaspeak just try and explain it is plain English.
Wanting to live in a democracy where we have control of our own destiny and not be part of a political Union project
"Scotland looks on with interest as Giant Mess is created to allow Tories to squabble over party leadership"
Wanting to live in a democracy where we have control of our own destiny and not be part of a political Union project unlike any anywhere else in the world, if thats an ideology then yes please.
True... Though the UK is a democracy and has control of its destiny. As for unlike other parts of the world there is trouble in the south china sea as territory disputes rage on, Russia still bullies it neighbours and has invaded them, war broke out, n Africa is a mess, the middle east is a mess huge areas of the planet where increased cooperation and a pm on goal would improve the lives of everyone living there. Which has one are we striving to be part of.
You are also ignoring the fact that eurosceptism is higher in many parts of Europe than it is in the UK
Superb you called it a fact[ so its not your opinion]so lets see your evidence as its not like you just made something up that is factually wrong
Ps What constitutes the term "higher Eurosceptic" ? as we just voted to leave I thin you ay be being a little OTT with that description.
It does and is now over-stepping the mark
its not and if you think it is then report it. Nothing will happen.
Its no worse than what you were saying to him pages ago before you remembered you love him still 😉
I disagreed strongly with nearly every point Jambas and VL made - but hopefully without being personal and rude to him.
Yes THM you are never personal nor rude- TJ can ouch for that or AA or Duckman ...oh the irony oh the irony.
It always makes me laugh that the same uber-right wing free-markateers piddle their nickers with furious indignation about 'surrendering sovereignty' to a bigger parliament and grouping of countries, but don't bat an eye-lid at handing the real power over to tax avoiding multinational companies, dodgy media moguls, and blood-stained oligarchs
because they trust them its those with a social conscience they fear and distrust
also unleashed an undercurrent of xenophobia which makes me disappointed/ashamed.
This!
also unleashed an undercurrent of xenophobia which makes me disappointed/ashamed.
Look at the people involved FFS! You expected better from them? You didn't see it coming? Seriously?
It always makes me laugh that the same uber-right wing free-markateers piddle their nickers with furious indignation about 'surrendering sovereignty' to a bigger parliament and grouping of countries, but don't bat an eye-lid at handing the real power over to tax avoiding multinational companies, dodgy media moguls, and blood-stained oligarchs
They aren't proper capitalists, that's why. Genghis Khan is a capitalist hero, the fact that he set about empire building seems to be lost on them when it comes to the EU.
Can/will you please explain to me the idea of sovereignty that has been bandied around by the Leave campaign?
You really need to look at the medium and long term prospects and the risks of being in the EU to answer that question.
Ok but what good is that to someone (say, me) who loses their job in the short term and can't find another? I'm just trying to make a point here. Sure, if you want long term restructuring, then work on that - but [i]simply pulling the plug like this can't be the best way to do it[/i], due to the potenital fallout and impact on individual lives.
Re the baiting - I apoligise for appearing personal or causing offence, but what I actually said was 'that was a heartless thing to say'. Because I believe that he is overlooking the direct human consequences of this vote - hence my comment. I didn't call HIM heartless or insult him and I was not rude. If I had said 'you heartless bastard' then you would have a point but I didn't, because I don't believe he is such.
But let's move on from that, the debate is much too interesting.
You really need to look at the medium and long term prospects
More importantly, these look no better out than in.
We joined the EU on our knees in '75 and have benefited massively ever since. This is a case of biting the hand that feeds you, rather than leaving an oppressive master.
You are also ignoring the fact that eurosceptism is higher in many parts of Europe than it is in the UK
Very good point. A large number of people who voted to leave were voting against economic hardship that they were led to believe was caused by immigrants (either EU or non EU) or were more directly were voting against the Tories.
We won't ever know what the true level of euroscepticism was among voters. It was certainly nowhere near 52% of those who voted, never mind those who didn't.
Turnerguy
Cant watch youtube vids from here, so will see what you have got when I get home.
You really need to look at the medium and long term prospects
How is this possible? Has someone suddenly taken control and told us exactly how we are going to "leave the EU" so we can all work out what's going to happen?
Last I heard, no-one really had any idea, other than repeating nonsense-isms.
The only person who actually genuinely seemed to want to go through with this quit yesterday.
Ok but what good is that to someone (say, me) who loses their job in the short term and can't find another?
why can't you find another - there's free movement so just pack your bags, leave the family, and go and look for work elsewhere. You might have to retrain but that's the way it goes.
That's the way of the EU, and we are currently still in it...
Cant watch youtube vids from here, so will see what you have got when I get home.
no matter what your politics the rees-mogg ones are worth watching for the humor at the least. look for the best of one.
That's the way of the [s]EU[/s]Life, and we are currently still in it...
FIFY
How will it be different out of the EU? Jobs will magically appear next to you. The UK could fix some of those problems without leaving the EU.
TMH appreciate the sentiment but let's just let it go, its more a sign to step back and let people get on with agreeing with each other.
Horatio Farage didn't quit as an MEP and Tories have made it pretty clear any cross party involvement will focus on MPs so Carswell. Farage can do as much if not ore without being leader of UKIP as he can as leader. I suspect he will actaully do more around Brexit and Euroscpetism in Europe now he has a freer hand and more time. There is also some internal UKIP stuff going on between Carswell and Farage - Farage has dropped Carswell right in it as he can't avoid the limelight so much now and will have more distractions. Suzanne Evans mess too with her being suspended.
Just when you thought things were scary enough!
How will it be different out of the EU? Jobs will magically appear next to you. The UK could fix some of those problems without leaving the EU.
less competition because we are not flooded by as many EU migrants that want to come here, the government can choose to manage the supply of skilled and unskilled workers as it needs to to satisfy both the neeeds of business and the needs of society.
simply pulling the plug like this can't be the best way to do it, due to the potenital fallout and impact on individual lives
Jesus wept, have we already left?
I though that there was this process whereby we decided end when to activate article 50, which then led to at least another two year long transition phase till we were out.
Slowest "simply pulling the plug" *ever*
Just when you thought things were scary enough!
but the point is that the UK people can now say 'enough of this' and vote them out. As it stands even if they voted a Corbynesque labour in, he can't renationalise the railways, for example, as it is against the EUs goals.
less competition because we are not flooded by as many EU migrants that want to come here,
[img]
?s=ukueilor&v=201607041830n[/img]If the UK is being flooded by immigrants then why has unemployment been falling steadily?
both the neeeds of business and the needs of society.
What if the needs are not the same, what if there are multiple needs of society? For instance the side that sees immigration as flooding the place and the side that doesn't
I though that there was this process whereby we decided end when to activate article 50
[img] 
[/img]
Whats the STW collectives thoughts on, for one (stated) reason or another, that never actually happening?
For instance the side that sees immigration as flooding the place and the side that doesn't
Perhaps we could have some sort of'vote' whereby we decide which side is in the majority?
but the point is that the UK people can now say 'enough of this' and vote them out. As it stands even if they voted a Corbynesque labour in, he can't renationalise the railways, for example, as it is against the EUs goals.
Sounds like a good argument for Scottish independence.