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The thing about the £350m is that's before the rebate. To get the £350m back, you need the EU to keep paying us the rebate after we've left.
Good luck with that 😀
TMH by the time we leave the EU late 2019/2020 the budget contribution will be much more than £350m a week, mark my words.
Brexit plan: Answer me this, how where Leave suposed to come up with a plan when we where prevented from having any access to the civil service or other government machinery ? We know what plan Cameron made, I lose I quit.
And there you have the Brexit plan in a nutshell: always blame someone else.
And there you have the Brexit plan in a nutshell: always blame someone else.
Or the longer version
Promise Everything
Remind people they can't make promises if any one asks tough questions
Promise more good stuff
Repeat
And another thing. I really don't think losing our right to freedom of movement is all that great either. I'm just about the only person in my family that hasn't worked in Europe at some point
Tremendous logic fail makes drunken sbob happy. 😀
Then sad. 🙁
[quote=jambalaya ]Cameron said he'd execute Article 50 immediately but unfortunately I knew he wouldn't
Well it would be odd if only one side lied.
[quote=ninfan ]Its odd - the '£350m was a lie' is still getting thrown about by Remainers, but at the same time they are saying "what are the farmers going to do without their grants" and "what is going to happen to Cornwall and Wales without EU money" - when all of that money was, of course, paid for out of that £350m
Shall we try starting with £250m which I think is about the right gross post-rebate figure? Then I'm not sure how you think there is a contradiction - the point being made is that if you maintain the levels of grants you get far less back. I don't think we have any problem working out the difference between gross and net, and that if you want the gross back to spend on other things then you don't get to pay those grants.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36700468
Boris Johnson has accused the government of failing to explain how the vote to leave the EU can be made to work in the UK's interests.
Writing in the Daily Telegraph, he said this could not wait until there was a new prime minister in September.
He also said the Leave vote had led to "a kind of hysteria, a contagious mourning" among part of the population.
It's amazing that as he shouted a lot of them, is a member of the government and had a huge list already he can't help out here!!
If anything you have to admire his almost mercenary like skills at being able to position himself on the side that benefits Boris the most for his Saviour/Resurrection leadership bid once the next winner(loser) strikes out.
And another thing. How can the vote have been democratic when people who would ordinarily have been allowed to vote in a General Election weren't allowed to vote?
My friend, married to a UK national for 5 years, works, owns a house here. German passport.
My friend's dad, has lived here and was widowed after 40+ years of marriage to a UK national. Owns a house, has two grown up daughters with UK nationality and grandchildren. Has been a local councillor. Disenfranchised.
I didn't realise this until after, why was that never challenged?
So this workers revolution, and it's march towards the sunny uplands of a fairer, more accountable, more representative democracy begins with.....
*drumroll please.....*
Reducing corporation tax to 15%
Well we sure 'took back control' there!
you mean cut red tape and vibrant and dynamic economy meant t tax cuts for the rich and reduced rights for the workers...i can hardly believe it
jamba quote
I could go back and dig up all the p.ss taking posts from when I revealed I was campaigning, but I won't.
You also said Boris would be leader of conservatives by September can we extract the urine about that blunder as well?
My friend, married to a UK national for 5 years, works, owns a house here. German passport.My friend's dad, has lived here and was widowed after 40+ years of marriage to a UK national. Owns a house, has two grown up daughters with UK nationality and grandchildren. Has been a local councillor. Disenfranchised.
Owning property doesn't give you a vote anymore, not even in NI. You have to be a British national to vote in UK general elections.
and to lighten things up a bit
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you mean cut red tape and vibrant and dynamic economy meant t tax cuts for the rich and reduced rights for the workers...i can hardly believe it
the tax cut is for corporations and is to try and offset the fact that they will probbly have increased operating costs under brexit, seems pretty sensible to me, and probably to any right minded individual considering the current situation.
You also said Boris would be leader of conservatives by September can we extract the urine about that blunder as well?
Feel free 🙂
@Clover as Ernie says they are not entitled to vote in a GE. You can vote in local elections and be a local councillor. Personally I would extend voting to UK passport holders living abroad as the French, Australians, US do.
or like one bad idea after another... less profitable, higher costs, less tax revenue less to spendthe tax cut is for corporations and is to try and offset the fact that they will probbly have increased operating costs under brexit, seems pretty sensible to me,
Jamba - I'm still just getting my head around what I think is the case that you were part of the quit Europe campaign, and on here at least spoke out quite strongly against freedom of movement, all the time from a safe position inside the EU. A position where the frankly quite ugly reaction to "foreigners" that has been released won't affect your French wife? Unless of course as you predict the French vote to leave and release a similar reaction that comes looking for you - but I guess you take that chance.
Have I got that right?
If so, there's a word for that - and it's not a vey nice one.
Anyway that aside, I'm going to be alright whether we exit or not, so I've decided to laugh about it. Mainly I'm going to laugh at the quit monkey Brexiters.
Brexit plan: Answer me this, how where Leave suposed to come up with a plan when we where prevented from having any access to the civil service or other government machinery
You can start throwing excuses around now if you like, but it doesn't avoid the fact that if you fail to plan, you should plan to fail.
Ok here goes, Jamba knows nothing, Jamba knows nothing; duh stupid Jamba 😆
oldnpastit - Memberit doesn't avoid the fact that if you fail to plan, you should plan to fail.
That's literally what the Leave campaign's leaders were doing, planning to fail. But they failed at it.
Yep it sure is one unholy mess! Every day brings new surprises though, which gives us something to talk about instead of our shite summer! 😥
bencooper - Member
And there you have the Brexit plan in a nutshell: always blame someone else
Yeah I'm already groaning at the excuses from the Leavers 2 years after TAKING POWER BACK , after 2years of recession, the phenomenal legal bill for our disastrous negotiations that look set to deliver a worse version of the Norway deal*
It will all be Cameron/Osborne/Johnson/Corbyn/the EU bogeyman/the BBCs fault
* Of course it might not happen like that -farige might get on the negotiation team and we'll end up flooding Europe with Brefugees astje country really tanks.
Farage has just stepped down as leader of UKIP
So there we have it. Just Gove to go now. I'll give him 2 days, tops! So a jolly amusing parlour game between a bunch of posh boys has led to them all walking away, there lives unaffected, having caused all manner of damage
How very Bullingdon
I knew I'd heard take the power back and anti-euro views somewhere previously.
Who'd have thought Leadsom, Farage et al were fans? Boris, yes, I could see Boris dad dancing to this.
- Rage Against The Machine
The present curriculum
I put my fist in 'em
Eurocentric every last one of 'em
See right through the red, white and blue disguise
With lecture I puncture the structure of lies
Installed in our minds and attempting
To hold us back
We've got to take it back
Holes in our spirit causin' tears and fears
One-sided stories for years and years and years
I'm inferior? Who's inferior?
Yeah, we need to check the interior
Of the system that cares about only one culture
And that is why
We gotta take the power back
Well done Leavers...
Look at your leaders now 👿
Boris, yes, I could see Boris dad dancing to this.
Boris's dad was a remainer and critized his son for being on the leave side, so what is your point ?
instead of our shite summer!
I fitted some mudguards to my bike yesterday to tempt fate. The weather is great today so it might be working - and I am buying a new umbrella later...
TurnerGuy - Member
Boris, yes, I could see Boris dad dancing to this.
Boris's dad was a remainer and critized his son for being on the leave side, so what is your point ?
[url= http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boris-johnson-video-watch-london-1258790 ]Boris Dad Dancing[/url]
extend voting to UK passport holders living abroad as the French, Australians, US do.
Like already exists? I'm a Brit living in Oz, voted in the referendum, voted in GEs, and can for 15 years since date of departure from the UK.
Another "fact" brought to you by Jamby...
inigomontoya has it - Boris dad-dancing, not Boris's dad dancing.
Not sure what my point is, except perhaps that ideas come from strange places sometimes, but it was just Leadsom repeating endlessly about taking power (or was it control, I forget) back reminded me of something and I just remembered what.
That said someone with more IT skills than me could do an excellent Brexiter -v- RATM mashup.
That album, RATM by RATM, was excellent actually.
binners - MemberFarage has just stepped down as leader of UKIP
What, [i]again?[/i]
Brexit plan: Answer me this, how where Leave suposed to come up with a plan when we where prevented from having any access to the civil service or other government machinery ?
As said above - having an excuse for not having a plan still means you don't have a plan.
Well it has started, the main beneficiaries of Brexit would always be big business, as their influence would increase (which is pretty much what Murdoch said)...
So, they'll contribute even less to UK PLC...
We'll be in a race to the bottom with Eire....
We'll be in a race to the bottom with Eire....
We always where with and with Luxembourg too. If we exit the EU we have a chance to fight back. Maybe we can make it a requirement that Apple, Google, Facebook, Starbucks are legally domiciled and taxed here in the UK. Personally I doubt the politicans have the b@lls
Maybe we can make it a requirement that Apple, Google, Facebook, Starbucks are legally domiciled and taxed here in the UK. Personally I doubt the politicans have the b@lls
As it's not really working out for the rest of the world I'm not sure it's a likely outcome.
Its the government's job to have a plan. I can volunteer and shout all I like but I am not the government. Cameron could have made the Referendum binding and laid out an outline plan which we then voted on but he did not
As it's not really working out for the rest of the world I'm not sure it's a likely outcome.
I think you'll find the next US government is going to address this too. 60% of Apple's global profits go throigh Ireland where they are taxed at 1% - that's criminal.
From what I can tell something like £50bn a year ish comes from corporation tax receipts. So we'd be losing £12bn ish. which is extremely roughly £200-250m a week we'd be out of pocket.
First Brexiter to counter this by mentioning future investment gets a slap.
Its the government's job to have a plan.
The government had a plan! It was to remain in the ****ing EU!
The government set out exactly what they thought brexit would look like before the vote, now it's their job to implement that vision and bring about economic catrastophe.
The massive corporations seem to pretty much choose what corp tax they pay, a cut would benefit smaller firms maybe allowing more investment, wages rises etc.
It's funny when you talk to Brexiters, actually getting one to acknowledge the reality of where we are and admit it might be a mistake is virtually impossible. I think it's because in general they're "a bit thick".
I think you'll find the next US government is going to address this too. 60% of Apple's global profits go throigh Ireland where they are taxed at 1% - that's criminal.
Are you scratching your crystal balls again? Which government they start their election in November, and also require a cooperative congress to pass anything.
It also might not be criminal, perfectly legal just not moral but in many ways it requires more cooperation not less to get tax reform
[i]The massive corporations seem to pretty much choose what corp tax they pay, a cut would benefit smaller firms maybe allowing more investment, wages rises etc.[/i]
+1 It'll be the UK-based SME's that will benefit and those business that have predominately UK-based income. It may also bring back some head quarters, but only 'letter-box' ones, probably few jobs.
Whether it will provide an increase in the total tax take, no idea.
Jambas - you have been arguing that the EU was the cause or at least a contributor towards corporate tax avoidance.
And yet, a few days after Brexit we are competing on tax and of course this was a big part of yS's plans for an independent Scotland.
I think you case has been unproven.
think you'll find the next US government is going to address this too. 60% of Apple's global profits go throigh Ireland where they are taxed at 1% - that's criminal.
I thought Ireland's corp tax was 12.5%
Don't be confused as tax percentage on earnings.
Besides the commission are leaning on them.
I have a feeling you remainers are worrying over nothing. My conspiracy theory mind has been doing overtime and I have come to the conclusion that Theresa May was setup to be the next PM in the event of an exit vote. Given she was a quiet remain voter effectively means she can come in and do the brexit voters over and cosy back up to the EU dictators.
It's just all to coincidental that the leave camp do not have a credible candidate and Cameron knew when he resigned that May would be the next tory PM.
I am hoping I will be proven wrong, but I have a sneaky suspicion that is what is going to happen.
I have a feeling you remainers are worrying over nothing
Nope, this pretty much sums up what we're in for now....
We always where with and with Luxembourg too. If we exit the EU we have a chance to fight back. Maybe we can make it a requirement that Apple, Google, Facebook, Starbucks are legally domiciled and taxed here in the UK.
It would also conflict with our international tax treaty obligations which as I have stated ad nauseam* would still be in place.
* you seem incapable of gaining even a scintilla of an understanding of how international tax works hence the need to continually repeat.
Jamba would vote for that I think footflaps
Never let a good crisis go to waste.
George set the ball rolling this morning
Given she was a quiet remain voter effectively means she can come in and do the brexit voters over and cosy back up to the EU dictators.
Didn't she say she'd trigger A50 though?
Jamba would vote for that I think footflaps
Sadly yes, but I don't think the rest of the 52% realise quite what they have unleashed...
Esp the poor and disenfranchised who have just voted to be kicked in the nuts with an even bigger boot..
I have a feeling you remainers are worrying over nothing. My conspiracy theory mind has been doing overtime and I have come to the conclusion that Theresa May was setup to be the next PM in the event of an exit vote. Given she was a quiet remain voter effectively means she can come in and do the brexit voters over and cosy back up to the EU dictators.It's just all to coincidental that the leave camp do not have a credible candidate and Cameron knew when he resigned that May would be the next tory PM.
I am hoping I will be proven wrong, but I have a sneaky suspicion that is what is going to happen.
The problem with conspiracy theories is that they credit governments/politicians with a level of skill and control that they are incapable of fulfilling.
This is just a simple unprepared bit of a mess
Esp the poor and disenfranchised who have just voted to be kicked in the nuts with an even bigger boot..
They were warned.
They were warned
🙂
To be fair if there was some way only the 52% suffered and the other 48% were unaffected, I'd be quite happy with it....
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The government had a plan! It was to remain in the **** EU!
I don't think they'd even got that far.
I think Cameron hoped we'd have a nice quiet referendum where no-one really gave a shit, Remain would win by a country mile, then he could appease the hard-right/UKIP defectors within his party, tell them all was well with the world and get back to screwing the NHS.
I don't think even he thought that it would take on an unholy life of it's own with his supposed mate Boris openly fighting him.
It's the worst possible outcome of all of it. A very finely balanced Leave/Remain, both major parties in complete meltdown, catastrophic economic fallout already (apart from the big investors who've done very well out of trading currency thank you very much) and now they're all just walking off as though nothing had happened.
Seriously, none of them have even the faintest ****ing clue what to do to resolve this!
Cameron should have stayed in power, offered a month or so of "reflection", of analysis, settling down (and waiting for Farage to bugger off thinking he'd achieved his goal) and then said that the referendum was non-binding and he'd be ignoring it.
That would trigger it's own power struggle within the Tory party but at least we'd not be left with the complete total shitpile of uncertainty we have now. 52% of the country would be pissed off about it but they were already so pissed off with the Government that they ignored every single bit of advice coming from every single expert around and voted against it - it (mostly) wasn't a protest vote against the EU, it was a protest vote against the Government.
The problem is with Cameron that he's spent so long lying to everyone that on the one occasion he told the truth, no-one listened.
pretty difficult to argue with that analysis crazy-legs.
The trouble is that now the right wing of the Tory party (The Bill Cashes and John Redwoods) will take this as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity (cheers to the utterly ****ing useless Labour party!) to dismantle the welfare state, privatise the NHS, abolish workers rights.
They're going to make Dave and George, with their austerity program look like santa and the tooth fairy
pretty difficult to argue with that analysis crazy-legs.
The only problem after that is trying to appease all the people who thought they were getting everything....
[b]"Theresa May is a Tory shocker"[/b]
Theresa May's voting record is very much what you would expect it to be for a Tory politician, it's certainly not very different to David Cameron's voting record.
David Cameron opposed repeal of Section 28, he voted against gay couples adopting, and he opposed giving lesbians the right to VF treatment.
Theresa May supported civil partnerships and it was her who pushed that same-sex marriage should be in the Tory 2010 election manifesto.
Theresa May's position on gay issues has been in line with Tory policy, she has followed the Tory whip, as you expect a senior Tory politician to do.
Although if you want to judge the candidates in the Tory leadership contest solely on their commitment to gay rights then Michael Gove is probably your man.
[quote=molgrips ]Didn't she say she'd trigger A50 though?
You have to bear in mind who her current electorate are. Of course she has to avoid getting complacent because it certainly wouldn't be impossible for her not to finish in the top 2 of the MPs' vote, but realistically she is currently appealing to the ordinary members of the Tory party. I don't think they've been polled, but given the way Tory voters voted in the referendum you'd have to assume a majority in favour of Leave.
Maybe she is telling the truth, but it would be a fairly unusual position regarding leaving the EU.
she is currently appealing to the ordinary members of the Tory party
Hence the photo op of her biting the head of a new born (poor) baby and hunting homeless people in Newark...
Her leadership bid statement basically said: Leaving, leaving, definitely leaving. But. Until we've agreed on a coherent negotiating strategy we won't be going anywhere near the Article 50 button.
Plenty of scope to end up saying in 9 months' time that they've had a really good look into this, had a proper think and there is no coherent exit strategy that will give anything like what the various leave campaigns promised without making sacrifices that would, on balance, be unacceptably detrimental to the economy of the UK, and the lives of the majority of people living here.
Until we've agreed on a coherent negotiating strategy we won't be going anywhere near the Article 50 button.
[url= https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7590/27802826570_592be31274.jp g" target="_blank">https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7590/27802826570_592be31274.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/JmQKGN ]Untitled[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
Early days yet but it appears that Merkel is distancing herself a bit from Junker and Tusk with regards to trade talks. We are simply too big a market for both France and Germany to Sh@ft us as much as Junker and co would like.
No need for any shafting, just applying the normal rules leaves us no better off (arguably, worse, as we lose our voice in the EU).
Like already exists? I'm a Brit living in Oz, voted in the referendum, voted in GEs, and can for 15 years since date of departure from the UK.
No @zokes like exists in those countries where there is no time limit
@Inbred yes agreed. She has an election to win and Germany losing preferential access to it's third largest car market is not a vote winner.
TMH not sure how Osbourne is allowed to make such a statement ahead of a leadership election, its up to the new leadsr and his/her Chancellor to determine bidget etc. Personally I think he's sh.t stirring
@Rond no Apple doesn't even pay Irish Corp tax, they have other elaborate and government approved swerves
The government had a plan! It was to remain in the **** EU!
🙂 However, it is generally prudent to have a plan for more than just your preferred outcome.
the poor and disenfranchised who have just voted to be kicked in the nuts with an even bigger boot..
Rightly or wrongly, they feel they've got nothing to lose:
Let's be really clear Osbourne is making a proposal on corporation tax, it has no policy weight particualry as its not clear he will even be Chancellor under the new PM
@ninfan indeed, those Remainers here don't seem able to understand these people's logic. They don't care about what's on the side of a bus. Many Remainers here could not appreciate theirs was the establishment campaign and that the grass roots anti-establishment vote was Leave.
I'm confused Jamba, THM - how come corporation tax cuts are now being portrayed as some sort of ultra right wing conspiracy? wasn't cutting corporation tax to stimulate business one of the key pledges of Alex Salmond and the SNP during the indyref?
TheCaptain normal trade rules may not apply in this case. I think Germany is very worried that it may lose more than it gains by imposing tariffs. Tariffs work both ways and we like our German goods but if we think our BMW's and Audi's are going to cost us more because of punitive measures by Brussels we could easily go for Jags and Lexus. There is more to this and certainly I think we may be surprised as to the direction that the negotiations go. Early days.
There won't be tariffs, there will be a single market with free movement of labour, though there may be some token restriction on immigration.
Anyway, Standard Life just shut off sales in their property fund. I doubt they will be the last. Surprised it took so long, to be honest.
Interesting piece on C4 news just now - Lloyds of London aren't waiting for the politicians.
Tariffs work both ways and we like our German goods but if we think our BMW's and Audi's are going to cost us more because of punitive measures by Brussels we could easily go for Jags and Lexus.
Assuming we're still making Jags in the UK, JLR are making more and more production overseas now, most of China's sales are made in China.