Horrendous. That’s quite an understatement. Do you not have faith Woppit?
Just been hearing about someone's son who is going abroad to live and work for a year. Sounds brilliant. However he's only able to do it because he's a dual citizen. Makes me sick to think that my kids will be denied the opportunity to do that on their own terms.
Sure, there might be some kind of temporary work program to get you work as a dogsbody for some company enrolled in the scheme, or some agency looking g to exploit kids, but that's hardly the same thing.
THM opined
Fear doesn’t work
I beg to differ. It’s just fear of immigrants, trumps fear of economic downturns.
Just need to pick the right scary story kid.
People think the immigrants are an economic downturn.
Yeah, but, because Cameron/Blair/whoever couldn't/didn't persuade them that the opposite was the case, we need to now pretend to agree with them. Or something. According to THM. Or we keep at painting a positive future, either inside, or via a close relationship with, the EU/EEA. Fortress Britain willl be worse than Britain in Europe… to avoid it, keep making the case. Hard Brexit will only happen if the lies claiming it is now inevitable take hold. It isn't. It's a political decision, and has not been, and will not be, backed by the people of the UK.
Yeah, but, because Cameron/Blair/whoever couldn’t/didn’t persuade them that the opposite was the case
Or actually do something about the problem...
Blair (who I never voted for) brought in the minimum wage, increased investment in deprived regions, increased spending on the NHS… etc. Probably a better record when it comes to doing something about the problems that people mistakenly blame immigrants for than Cameron (or whoever I did happen to have voted for).
He also renegotiated the EU rebate, which France especially wanted stopped or at least reduced.
Blair and brown spent a shed load of money which made people happy but with the following global situation created a sizeable deficit.
Cameron cut back on services but still spent a shed load of cash and everyone got sad...
neither were bothered about the influx of net contributiors from Europe because they were net contributors. The trouble is people need someone or something to focus their blame on. Pro Brexit people gave a handy vehicle for this.
one of the guys at work was talking about American healthcare said that things will only get better once the situation is so bad that there is s revolt and people demand a solution. The biggest jumps come after horrible conditions that force people to come together and work for better lives. Often these are wars or other disasters... Brexit could be that for the UK. 10 to 15 years of hell where every service fails or falls down and then the establishment of a new system.
Not going to happen.
It'll be shitter than it otherwise would have been… but the money and effort to prevent "years of hell" will be found…
…of course if you find yourself in a difficult position that could have been alleviated with that redirected money and effort… well… blame immigrants or something.
Mol. Why is someone not able to go overseas for a year?
How do you get a work visa THM?
Apply for one
And if you're refused?
You're being a smartarse here, you know full well there are restrictions on who can get them in most countries.
Whose fault is that? Personally I do not doubt that my kids will be able to work overseas if they want to. I certainly hope they do as I enjoyed it very much. I won’t be telling them they can’t.
Whose fault is what? This conversation will go quicker if you make your point 🙂
If countries refuse access - as you claim - whose fault is that.
THM in an I'll be alright shocker ....
I'm sure the people doing bike guiding or manual jobs will be just fine applying for a visa or heading out to travel for a bit.
If countries refuse access – as you claim – whose fault is that.
It's a consequence of the visa restrictions of that country. Where are you going with this? That it's my own fault if I don't meet the requirements?
You do exaggerate mike.
mol it’s not me pretending that kids won’t be able to work or travel abroad
Remember rich people get to be ex-pats and float around the world as they wish. Only the poor are immigrants.
He wants you to say it's the other country's fault, the EU's fault, not the fault of the UK for precipitating this situation.
You do exaggerate
Today I can get on a plane in the morning and start work in any eu country tomorrow. Know my rights and have some kind of health care provision.
It won't be that easy and will probably reflect how shitty the UK plans to treat immigrants.
Of course the comical Ali meme would have been quicker to post
mol it’s not me pretending that kids won’t be able to work or travel abroad
I've explained this to you several times before. They won't have the RIGHT to do it. That means that they only get to do it if they're lucky. Some people will be able to do it, but not everyone. I write as someone who's tried to work in a non-EU country and failed, despite being a skilled worker.
We will get the crumbs, whilst others eat at the table. Mobility for us will be worse, you know it will be, so why pretend otherwise? What point are you trying to even make?
If they think it’s down to luck then you are correct.i hope your kids don’t believe your second para ^.three hours ago
I think his point is shut up and stop complaining
aka "talking down the clock"
i hope your kids don’t believe your second para ^.three hours ago
The old Tory self-reliance thing? Ah yes.. everything you do is down to you, right? The fact we've had free movement rights stripped from us doesn't make a difference at all, does it? If you fail it's always your own fault isn't it?
Yep who are you going to employ in Europe, an EU citizen with zero paperwork or the UK one who needs a visa.
Nobody is saying it's impossible it's just got harder, more restricted and rights have been lost.
That is not exaggeration, that is fact.
If you are currently working out there you have to be questioning what your future holds now. Same as migrants doing a lot of good work in the UK.
But of course the problem is we are not all cheering it* on.
*We will let you know what it was later, but please keep cheering
Not at all I am fully in favour of freedom of movement. Always have been, always will.
I have just employed two non EU citizens despite the visa requirements and I lost one person to somebody else who had to sort out his visa. No dogsbodies, no abuse, no crappy agencies, no crumbs.
Well done, but as you cheer on Brexit it's one of the things that can go easily. You seem to be missing the link there.
If Freedom of Movement is off the table come the deal will you still support it?
Edit - What was the salary range for these 2? Ball park will do? How close to minimum wage was it?
Not at all I am fully in favour of freedom of movement.
How is that achieved post-Brexit?
You are exagerating again. I voted remain. I do not cheer on Brexit. But I know it’s going to happen and I don’t believe in BSing about what will happen
FoM was always off the table - but in truth it doesn’t exist properly in Europe anyway. Shame
No way near I pay people very well. Try to pay above average to get better people. Always have, always will.
It wont SoM. We lost the vote and FoM
No way near I pay people very well. Try to pay above average to get better people. Always have, always will.
Right, explains a bit, your dealing with ex pats not immigrants looking for work who FoM actually really benefited. I wouldn't expect you to understand how average people manage or deal with this sort of stuff or how the freedom has enriched a lot more people.
Untrue. You do exaggerate. To repeat I fully suppprt FoM. But that puts me in a minority, even among remainers. If you want to keep making things up, then so be it. Your perogative.
find one post anywhere here where I have been against FOM - good luck
I have just employed two non EU citizens despite the visa requirements
But how many people from their countries wishing to come to the UK did NOT get visas?
You're really missing the point here.
I voted remain. I do not cheer on Brexit. But I know it’s going to happen and I don’t believe in BSing about what will happen
Simply put you have given in. Plenty of other have not. Plenty of us expect that no meaningful deal will be reached, nothing that satisfies anybody. That is when the fat lady starts to sing. Not now.
7 months to go and then we will know things for certain about what we all lose. But every scenario is lose for people.
Lets see how support for remain changes, lets see what the people are thinking by Christmas.
Yes I am mol.- your point is to massively exaggerate what will happen. Look at your second para earlier on - dogsbody and exploitation etc 😳
I am very happy to miss this point. More than that. Reject it totally
Given in!! Brilliant.
Look at your second para earlier on – dogsbody and exploitation etc
I was a young software engineer when I was trying to get work in the USA. I searched for jobs all the time, every single advert said 'we will not sponsor visas'. I think the only possibilty I had was BUNAC, which is not really a substitute for a career in software engineering. Like I said, crumbs.
The point is that whilst my kids MAY have opportunities to do some job overseas, they will be far more restrictive than what's possible now. They might be able to clean chalets for a year, but a good job in say, project management, is pretty unlikely.
Well let’s hope you are wrong mol because apparently lots of bankers are going to have to up roots and move to Europe to do their jobs. Thousands and thousands of them. The city is going to be empty, so im told.
the French, Germans Irish and Dutch are bending over backwards to accommodate them - Wilkommen nach Frankfurt, Bienvenue a Paris...
You're only trolling yourself now. Have fun.
You’re really missing the point here.
Not missing it. Pretending it doesn't exist. Of course it's possible to hire non-EU people. We have many in our team. One has not seen her daughter for months because she was not able to get a visa. Will the same rules apply in future to workers from France and Romania? Who knows!
the French, Germans Irish and Dutch are bending over backwards to accommodate them
Ok so will they bend over backwards to accommodate me, or my kids? No, because they are only after a small group of people.
As I keep saying - you'll have to rely on luck in the future, rather than having a right. But you know this, you know we will have fewer opportunities to work abroad without FoM, that's the whole point. You're being deliberately contrary. You're apparently trying to show me that there will still be opportunities after Brexit. And of course there will - but FAR FAR FEWER. Like I said, crumbs.
