Aside from the notion "what deal?" there's a third option you're overlooking there.
Given the level of dishonesty or if we are being generous misunderstanding being posted then it’s clear not much thinking has been done. The same old tired excuses and fear are all we come up with.
The only thing differed from your previous incarnation is that you have dropped the "clever people are fixing everything behind the scenes" charade. This may be an improvement or not, depending on the reader's sense of humour.
The contents of the deal are really unimportant to my analysis as I can't imagine any deal which would not get the approval of Parliament in this context. There are lots other possible scenarios but I struggle to see how they can happen without government support, which I think is unlikely to be forthcoming hence my use of likely in the original post.
Kimbers I think it's idisingenuous to argue that 16 voted for the same thing while 17 didn't - but a convenient one for those who persist with the "but miss, it didn't say that on the ballot form so it's not fair 😢"
Among the 16 there are those who still would like the UK to be part of the the folly that is the Euro, the are those who want to be part of th EU but only if it's reformed, there are those who are happy to members without reform (or understand that this is not possible at least in a meaningful way) some like me thought what Dave bought back was about as good as it gets and where happy with that. All very different proposals with very different outcomes (ok not the reform as that's impossible) for the UK economically and politically. So even here there is a very wide range of views and aspirations.
does anyone complain that this granularity was not on the remain side of the ballot form? No, because by confusing the issue of membership of the EU with the terms of our future acces, they have a weak and clearly unsustainable argument for denying responsibility for delivering on the result. And they then witter on about democracy...
A brexit snapshot.
Friends of friends situation.
Her daughter”s in laws live in Spain . Their house is on a 75% empty development and it has been on the market for 3 years at £100000 with no interest.
It”s too hot in the summer so the son has them to stay for a month , where they can also see their new grandchild.
This trip however he felt ill and on a trip to the doctors was found to be riddled with cancer.
Next year I assume he won’t be eligible for Spanish healthcare and no hope of getting insured.
They will have to return and live off the state. Problem is that their unsaleable house is deemed as an asset and they are not eligible for help.
They will have to end up living with their son. My friend’s daughter absolutely hates them as they are typical Tory racists and moved to Spain to get away from the immigrants in this country.
She will not put up with them and will return home with her 2 kids to live with my friend.
This is the story as was told to me by my friend. I haven’t checked facts.
Let the lion roar etc.
Cool story bro but on three readings I haven't worked out who is related to who and where they all live 🙂
But I probably got the gist of it.
But I probably got the gist of it.
Yep, families can be a pain in the arse. This one just has a Brexit angle.
does anyone complain that this granularity was not on the remain side of the ballot form?
No, because we know what Remaining is.
Gloss or Matt for the painting over of reality? Forget Italy and Greece, have you been following the (nice) Swedish election??
yes cool Brexit story zippy: Euro created mass property bubble, the rights of UK citizens abroad need thinking about, oh and the DiL doesn't sound the nice caring sort does she?
nothign to do with Brexit but horrible story. Hope the son recovers/gets good treatment
THM, yes, I am following the Swedish election. What's happening in it?
Everything to do with brexit.
If he is able to receive care in Spain , life will carry on pretty much as normal as can be for those involved.
If he can’t , then the fall out will be huge.
Well rather than a united vision, we see a rapid rise in Euro scepticism (you will be aware of the polls FWIW), strong opinions on migration from a domestic and x-Europe perspective and associated violence.
So it's false to argue that people know what remain means or that there even a semblance of unity. Major political shifts are occurring within the EZ, the EU and nion members.
Convenient, but false
No, people KNOW what not leaving the EU means. For the millionth time, everyone acknowledges that there are differences of opinion about how it should be run, and it's not currently perfect, but I can tell you right now what remaining looks like. Your post above is whataboutery of the highest order.
The EU is always changing, so, yes, keeping EU membership is not, and can not be, a "no change" decision. That is not the same as actively unilaterally forcing major change, with no plan or consensus on how to deal with that self forced change.
Current theme while talking to my Brexit voting relatives is that they can't believe how badly our politicians are handling the Leave process. I can't find an answer as to what a good outcome would be at this stage though. These are highly intelligent, well read, politically and legally knowledgable people, but even they are reduced to a "not the Brexit we voted for" position, without any clarity as to what it is precisely they voted for… beyond regaining a more British, less European form of democracy.
Oh, one suggestion is to "let the civil service get on with it"… I think this is very much akin to THMs "grown ups" approach/hope… but that then moves the conversation on to timescales… tick tock.
It isn't (what's they voted for) correct. May is seeking to deliver a fudge. Will she get away with it from either side? Possibly/probably not.
the EU is hardly changing. Macrons attempts at reform are stalled while populism and euroscepticism is risng.. as others say, going back to page 2, it was alway silly having a vote when we don't know what the EU will look like in 5 years time. They have no plan for making the Euro work, preferring internal fights among themselves, while the poor get poorer and the rich get richer. Crazy isn't it?
Does she have a mandate for her "fudge"?
Why is she wasting all our time and effort seeking to deliver it?
She's running the clock down, but to what ends? To force a deal unpalatable to her hard Brexit MPs at the final minute? To force a no deal exit past her soft Brexit MPs at the final minute? Or to sneak an extension or transition period to enable still more can kicking on the close/distant relationship decision that has to at some point be made. When and how do "the people" get involved?
Tick, tock.
Crazy isn’t it?
We don't have a government, or opposition, seeking to take us into the Euro. So…
> shrugs <
Good question. But tbf pretty hard to have a unilateral negotiation - an oxymoron if ever there was one.
tick tick tock - the EU strategy from the outset. We were warned so can only blame ourselves - an unpopular concept these days as we know
By "ourselves", who do you mean?
So??? Really???
The future of our relationship with the rest of the Euro area is fundamentally related to how the structural failings of the Euro are addressed. They have not been planned for yet, so we cannot negtionate about them - sound familiar? I wish they would hurry up, the clock is ticking.
But you understand what not leaving looks like, yes?
the daily star of all papers finally nails it!
🙂
No not yet. It's quite unclear
Can kicking into implementation period incorporating some unpalatable wording for the ERG, but will still be approved by Parliament.
Well as reported today the "People's Vote" group are going to try and get motions passed at the Labour conference to force a meaningful vote on the deal.
Sounds fair, given nobody knows what we are heading for or what it looks like.
Sounds like sensible democracy rather than the No Deal/Whatever Deal option currently being touted.
That's most likely @Mefty, agreed. Messy for the country, and completely gives the EU the upper hand, but that's the corner she's boxing her party and Parliament into, it seems.
Too late I feel @mikewsmith, but would be wise for Labour to say/do something.
Only fair if they also define what the EU is going to look like too
Only fair if they also define what the EU is going to look like too
Prompt to change your country… you need to agree and plan that change. Responding to changes prompted by other countries is a different matter.
Also, staying a member now, or taking an EEA style stance, does not preclude moving further away in even the near future. Rule out those options now, and who really thinks they will be on offer again, with sensible terms, within our lifetimes?
Only fair if they also define what the EU is going to look like too
You know what it looks like.
Well they have a very long time to plan for the introduction of the Euro and still haven't got there.
No I don't, only that it cannot exist in its current form. Hard to engage with people who have no plan on the core element of their preferred option.
Only fair if they also define what the EU is going to look like too
Like the deal we can look at it at that point in time or make a decision.
At the moment the choice could be £8bn/Year payments for access, accept FoM, accept ECJ etc with no say or No Deal which the WTO keep popping up and blowing holes in peoples fantasies.
That sounds like some options that will please nobody really
I understand why it's easier if the great unwashed keep quiet and accept what TM says without questions but that ain't going to happen.
I'd also support the introduction of electric shock collars for the final debate where MP's get an increasing voltage for each lie they tell.
Who is proposing the UK joining the Euro?
I understand why it’s easier if the great unwashed keep quiet and accept what TM says without questions but that ain’t going to happen.
Everyone can have a say, they just need to armour themselves against accusations of being a blocker, a traitor, enemy of democracy, or whatever, if their say isn't wrapped up in hard Brexit rhetoric, or if they suggest any kind of, heaven forfend, "vote".
thm is, as it's a useful distraction from the cluster**** that the tories are currently managing.
Quite a few, albeit and fortunately only a minority.
But as above, the fate of the Euro affects us too
cmon captain don't make things up - only leavers do that apparently.
The fate of the dollar also effects us.
Loook!!! A squirrel!!!
We're talking about disruptive unilateral action by our government, based on a narrowly fought referendum that was not backed up with a plan of action.
The fate of the dollar also effects us.
Not once we put up the walls, brick up the tunnel and explain to the rest of the world how much they need us
The world will rejoice as it accepts Pounds Shillings and Pence as the currency we should all be using, managed by the only bank that matters.
Or we shall continue to be part of a global market which means things like Trump having a hissy fit impacts us harder.
But we should see what TM and her mandate can deliver before deciding what to do, who knows she might find the unicorn farm
Someone is proposing joining the dollar???
Squirrel !!!!
The government was clearly behind remain. They spent money on it - tut, tut. Both parties multilaterally campaigned to respect the result subsequently and increased their share of the vote too. As remainders we campaigned to remain part of something that has still to have a plan and is full of internal battles. It creates significant inequalities and major players break the rules consistently. So we should at least be "consistent" ourselves. To be otherwise is hypocritical.
So we have respected the result, TM has had over 2 years to sort out her plan and deal.
There is nothing hypocritical about checking what she has delivered is acceptable to the people is it?
If the people vote to accept a deal then that confirms their intent.
If the people vote not to accept the deal then it means the majority didn't want it and more problems are prevented.
It's almost as if some people have a lot riding on brexit happening and the dips/crash it will deliver.
As remainders we campaigned to remain part of something that has still to have a plan and is full of internal battles. It creates significant inequalities and major players break the rules consistently. So we should at least be “consistent” ourselves. To be otherwise is hypocritical.
No it isn't. At no point was there any question of Remain bringing about any change in the way the EU is run, or our dealings with it.
Respect the result! You are kidding. The elites and many here are yet to pass through denial yet alone acceptance and have vowed to do everything they can to ensure that the result is not respected.
Current theme while talking to my Brexit voting relatives is that they can’t believe how badly our politicians are handling the Leave process
It was never going to work; they have put themselves in an impossible position. Article 50 was written to make it so. There's no leverage to negotiate with once we've said we're leaving. If you walk into a car dealer and say, I'll definitely buy that car, lets negotiate a price, how well do you think that negotiation is going to go?
The elites and many here are yet to pass through denial yet alone acceptance and have vowed to do everything they can to ensure that the result is not respected.
Who are the elites?
Many people wanted to ensure that all steps were legal and constitutional, while respecting a parliamentary democracy. That is a noble effort in these current times.
The vote has been respected. TM has been able to negotiate her brexit deal (well she has just collapsed at every tough bit and given in as predicted)
Next step examine the deal in the same way any other bill through parliament would be.
What do you have riding on Brexit going ahead THM? You seem to have a lot of skin in the game
