So the dick finally zeroes in on what really froths him up - foreigners. Especially those who want to actually live in Ruritania, for some bizarre reason.
Typical troll. Complete failure to deal with the actual problems of Brexshit that were raised before his sneering, patronising return to the debate.
Hmmm well catching up what’s been going on here took more longer than expected 🙂
Everyone enjoying Brexit then ;-p
What do we reckon then as a possible scenario.
a)Extension of A50.
b)Mays chequers farce (2 years in the making) rebooted to get some deal thru.
c)Blind deal whereby we pay 40bn(ish) and sort something out later.
d)(Die)Hard Brexit - (full shits and giggles mode).
e)Intervention from House of Lords.
f)Alien Invasion.
g)Trump flees USA and gets made emergency PM after May is ousted.
Whatever it is, almost no one will be happy with it unless they’re able to protect themselves financially and invest in the economy once it’s bottomed out.
“Not slowly enough, try around one word per day and your English should be perfect.”....
is the kind of thing one would expect a true white van driving, EDL supporting, express reading, intellectually challenged, racist, Brexiteer might say.
The thread that keeps giving and ...
”so the dick”...
true colours come out under the pressure of Brexit
Except while you were sitting on the bench thm chewkw managed to let the act slip and posted some really clear posts in the world cup thread. The posts here are part of the act. But no matter the language his posts in here are generally incoherent
But anyway pick your favourite option for brexit.
Sauce for the gander...
If a contributor insists on treating those on the other side of the argument as if they are inferior beings who can’t think to the lofty heights of their oppo’s mighty curled lip, it’s no surprise that snappy little terriers like me take a bite.
Delicious.
Not my favourite, but what I consider most likely…
c)Blind deal whereby we pay 40bn(ish) and sort something out later.
…something to get us into a transition period.
this is very confusing
Sure is…
An “omission” in guidance issued in 2008 and not corrected until 2014 meant families from several eastern European countries were not asked for full documentation when applying for British passports for their children.
As a result, hundreds of parents have seen their children’s passport renewals rejected because necessary details had not been provided during initial applications.
Wait 'till after Brexit to see what real confusion looks like for mixed EEA/UK families.
= :87(
I'm sure it will all be fine and the Home Office will get it sorted - after all, Windrush families are all OK, right?
Yes the government will sort it all out just pop it on the list. Not sure if the problem is we don't have a list or we have run out of paper.
GDP down 7.7%. Borrowing up £80bn a year.
Roberto Azevedo, the director-general of the WTO, said there would be an impact from a "no-deal" Brexit, with the possibility of trade "barriers" at the borders and tariffs between the UK and the EU almost certain.
"The EU cannot discriminate amongst the WTO members, so the UK will have to be treated as all the other members, and the other members pay tariffs so the UK will have to pay tariffs as well," he said.
He was also asked whether the UK could unilaterally remove its trade tariffs.
"Technically, yes," he replied. "But not only to the EU, to everybody, so you cannot pick and choose to whom you lower your tariffs.
"If you decide that a particular product, let's say glasses, that they go down to zero, that's perfectly right, any member of the WTO can do that. But that zero applies to everyone else."
Take you facts and file them with the experts.
It's getting in the way of hopes and dreams, the brexit version of thoughts and prayers
At some point in the last 3 pages, our new/returned contributor accused someone of having rose-tinted glasses. Yet a large part of his argument is that the UK has the best democracy and the best justice system in the world. That would be the democracy and justice system that the Tories are currently systematically undermining. Can't get much more rose-tinted than that.
But then he outed him (or her)self with his cut and pasted list of lies about immigration, showing that his position is based on the Flanders and Swann song
The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.The rottenest bits of these islands of ours
We've left in the hands of three unfriendly powers
Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot
You'll find he's a stinker, as likely as not.Och aye, awa' wi' yon Edinburgh Festival
The Scotsman is mean, as we're all well aware
And bony and blotchy and covered with hair
He eats salty porridge, he works all the day
And he hasn't got bishops to show him the way!The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.Ah hit me old mother over the head with a shillelagh
The Irishman now out contempt is beneath
He sleeps in his boots and he lies through his teeth
He blows up policemen, or so I have heard
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third!The English are noble, the English are nice,
And worth any other at double the priceAh, iechyd da
The Welshman's dishonest and cheats when he can
And little and dark, more like monkey than man
He works underground with a lamp in his hat
And he sings far too loud, far too often, and flat!And crossing the Channel, one cannot say much
Of French and the Spanish, the Danish or Dutch
The Germans are German, the Russians are red,
And the Greeks and Italians eat garlic in bed!The English are moral, the English are good
And clever and modest and misunderstood.And all the world over, each nation's the same
They've simply no notion of playing the game
They argue with umpires, they cheer when they've won
And they practice beforehand which ruins the fun!The English, the English, the English are best
So up with the English and down with the rest.It's not that they're wicked or natuarally bad
It's knowing they're foreign that makes them so mad!For the English are all that a nation should be,
And the flower of the English are Donald (Michael)
Donald (Michael) and Me!
Troll or not, I think he's really best ignored.
@dickens:
The uk population has grown by 8 million people since 2001....
Ok, I appreciate the UK is under population pressure, BUT perhaps leaving the EU was not the way to solve this?
1) Why is this many people causing problems? I would suggest that it is poor planning and management by successive governments. As has been said, large parts of the UK are not that busy.
2) The UK still had tools to control immigration and did not. So it cannot entirely be the fault of the EU, can it? Could the Leave campaign perhaps be blaming the EU for failings of the UK government?
To address your wider comments on the problems of the EU - yes, I don't doubt it's run badly, and probably has some corruption involved. But then, so is our government and probably most. It's not perfect at all, but the point is there are clear benefits as well as disadvantages. By leaving, we stand to lose the benefits, whilst most likely just re-implementing our own version of the disadvantages.
I have no idea why you think the shit-show of UK government can do better on its own.
if the Uk doesn’t use its current laws and available tools to monitor or control migration what makes you suspect leaving the EU will change anything?
cornholio - Its a fair point. At least we will have control and it becomes a voting issue. Right now the man in the street will never have any say in EU migration whatsoever. As the bloc expands this will only get worse.
you are highlighting a fundamental flaw in our economy, we simply dont pay enough especially at the bottom, despite our floods of immigrants unemployment is still falling, if we paid better then all would be raised up.
kimbers kimbers kimbers a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Mass immigration REDUCES PAY FOR LOW SKILLED WORKERS. Not my words but that of the bank of england.
It is a solution to our ageing demographic timebomb, until weve built enough robots to wipe your senile arse in the care home
kimbers - These stats have taken into account old people dying, the poor buggers are already dead and in the stats. Immigrants become old people too as well and so it becomes self perpetuating, even increasing in pace unless the unsustainable immigration continues for all eternity...
also Germany has seen a boost to GDP & construction boom because they Have built homes for their new immigrants
kimbers - and yet Germany have started closing the doors, in 2015 they took in 890,000, the following year it dropped to 280,000. If immigration is so good for the economy and the country as a whole why have dramatically reduced it?
UK gov skills shortage list is still huge
http://www.visabureau.com/uk/shortage-occupations-list.aspx
now obviously government should be training those here better, but Tory austerity has seen the opposite- apprenticeship numbers have collapsed
Yep fully agree with this statement, it beggars belief why we can't develop more doctors and nurses in this country and frankly I find it quite appalling that other countries train their doctors and nurses and then we go on to nick them.
It’s not about migration, it’s all about migration … repeat the bullshit again and again.
Well spotted kelvin, I did say that in the context of brexit, immigration isn't a big deal for me. I've got a pwoperdee portfolio see, so the greater the housing shortage the more lovely money I will make. But although I love money I'm an idealist as well and I also think there will be other more sexy opportunities in the event of Brexit. And also as cornhoilio pointed out there is no guarantee of immigration reducing after brexit anyway.
However immigration is a HUGE issue for most people. A large majority - two thirds - of the public want to see immigration reduced and this includes voters of all ethnicities.
Yep happy with that
You seem like a nice guy Mikewsmith the sort of guy where if I lent you a tenner and didn't pay you back you would probably still buy me a pint in the pub. Sadly some of us believe in give and take.
Most immigrants are over 18, they are net contributors to the society unlike some of the scrounging gits who just get born and do nothing.
Mikewsmith - there is admittedly some evidence to support this but also other evidence to refute it. The evidence is not clear. That said I do believe that historically the Non EU immigrants are a greater burden to the treasury however this gap is narrowing and the stats are old and haven't yet calculated the arrival of poles and romanians. Once more less well off eastern european nations join the party, countries like turkey, macedonia, albania, montenegro, serbia, then these figures are likely to change further.
At some point in the last 3 pages, our new/returned contributor accused someone of having rose-tinted glasses. Yet a large part of his argument is that the UK has the best democracy and the best justice system in the world. That would be the democracy and justice system that the Tories are currently systematically undermining. Can’t get much more rose-tinted than that.
But then he outed him (or her)self with his cut and pasted list of lies about immigration, showing that his position is based on the Flanders and Swann song
onewheelgood - feel free to ignore. I'll admit to being facetious, perhaps even obnoxious, but I am still genuinely contributing to the debate. You have just rocked up after not posting anything for over a month on this topic. Yes I have borrowed stats, but I have just invested in a 100 storey office block with teams of people and dozens of departments all working towards supplying me with my own personal brexit statistics and data, but in the meantime I will have to muddle on through and borrow other peoples.
so you cannot pick and choose to whom you lower your tariffs
Ah, I didn't know this. Interesting!
At least we will have control and it becomes a voting issue. Right now the man in the street will never have any say in EU migration whatsoever.
But didn't we have some control anyway that we didn't exercise? Therefore it was already a voting issue, in theory?
I also think there will be other more sexy opportunities in the event of Brexit.
1) Why do you think this?
2) What opportunities do you think there might be?
As if one Walter Mitty on the thread wasn’t enough, we have another now.
You have just rocked up after not posting anything for over a month on this topic.
This is utterly irrelevant but a very clever way of ensuring that I get irritated enough to respond. Chapeau.
kimbers kimbers kimbers a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Mass immigration REDUCES PAY FOR LOW SKILLED WORKERS. Not my words but that of the bank of england
You keep repeating this, but it's not anywhere near as black and white as you imply. The effect is small (less than 1%), short term, and the effects are likely to be greatest for resident workers who are immigrants themselves. This issue has been done to death somewhere (probably many places) in the last 1218 pages, but you can look at:
https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-jobs-labour-market-effects-immigration/
At least we will have control and it becomes a voting issue.
...
Germany have started closing the doors, in 2015 they took in 890,000, the following year it dropped to 280,000. If immigration is so good for the economy and the country as a whole why have dramatically reduced it?
Can you explain how Germany - an EU member, lest we forget - is seemingly perfectly able to reduce it's immigration, yet we need to leave the EU in order to "take back control" and do the same?
A large majority – two thirds – of the public want to see immigration reduced and this includes voters of all ethnicities.
Can you think why non-EU migrants might want to reduce EU immigration?
The uncomfortable truth here is that the UK needs migrant workers, from doctors to fruit-pickers. Even assuming it to be true that we need to leave the EU to 'control are boarders' (spoiler: it isn't), this would only apply to EU immigration. We're not about to brick up the Channel Tunnel post-Brexit, quite the opposite. And if net EU immigration goes down, non-EU migration will almost certainly go up.
Where would you prefer your immigrants to be coming from, Poland or ****stan?
and yet Germany have started closing the doors, in 2015 they took in 890,000, the following year it dropped to 280,000. If immigration is so good for the economy and the country as a whole why have dramatically reduced it?
Please don't confuse immigration with mass refugees. The bulk of those 890000 were fleeing conflict in Syria and arrived in Europe en masse in that year (almost 500k applications for asylum were made). Germany was the only country prepared/able to take such large numbers. That their economy has been able to absorb them is commendable. And why did the numbers drop so dramatically afterwards? Maybe because the worst of the Syrian refugee crisis was by then over.
So, what, if anything, has this got to do with the EU and inter European workers moving around to take up employment?
And why is a Polish plumber in the UK an immigrant, while the British owner of a bar on the Costa del Sol is an Ex Pat?
But didn’t we have some control anyway that we didn’t exercise? Therefore it was already a voting issue, in theory?
We can limit non eu immigration but not EU, freedom of movement innit. Unless there is some loophole that I am not aware of. But the EU is still using its powers to force eu nations to take non eu immigrants as well.
1) Why do you think this?
2) What opportunities do you think there might be?
I dabble with a bit of share dealing too. World trade will boom for many uk businesses after brexit. Some may not adapt and find themselves struggling or even out of business but for those that do apapt and have the right products and services, they have a great opportunity. Much depends on how the UK sets its stall out on tariffs and taxation and what level the pound settles at in relation to the euro. Tech companies like Arm that export stand out but I'm not investing in anything yet til I see the lie of the land post brexit.
You keep repeating this, but it’s not anywhere near as black and white as you imply. The effect is small (less than 1%), short term, and the effects are likely to be greatest for resident workers who are immigrants themselves. This issue has been done to death somewhere (probably many places) in the last 1218 pages, but you can look at:
onewheelgood - yes you are right. Its not significant but its still a downward pressure on low paid wages which has been denied elsewhere hence why I brought it up.
Can you explain how Germany – an EU member, lest we forget – is seemingly perfectly able to reduce it’s immigration, yet we need to leave the EU in order to “take back control” and do the same?
cougar - germany are slowing non eu immigration, as far as I am aware they have no control over eu immigration. But we are talking about Brexit I here you cry! Yes we are but outlining the scale of the problem gives it context.
The uncomfortable truth here is that the UK needs migrant workers, from doctors to fruit-pickers. Even assuming it to be true that we need to leave the EU to ‘control are boarders’ (spoiler: it isn’t), this would only apply to EU immigration. We’re not about to brick up the Channel Tunnel post-Brexit, quite the opposite. And if net EU immigration goes down, non-EU migration will almost certainly go up.
cougar - for me that's a comfortable truth, I agree. Why shouldn't we bring in the skills that we need, whether that be doctors or fruit pickers. But currently the UK has no strategy for identfying skills shortages and promoting them and preventing those that don't complement them. EU migration doesn't necessarily need to go up if non eu immigration comes down, its down to the government of the day lay out their plans in a manifesto and for the public to decide what they read.
Where would you prefer your immigrants to be coming from, Poland or ****stan?
I don't give a shit if they come from mars as long as they are contributing to the economy and society as a whole including integrating with mainstream british society..
100 storey office blocks for your own stats ?
You should send them to the UK government.
Now the more I read the more I'm landing on dear old Jamby but it could just be somebody recycling his material. The inability to accept being proved wrong is strong here.
Anyway 3 choices
Stay
Go
Cut our heads off to prove a point.
We can limit non eu immigration but not EU, freedom of movement innit. Unless there is some loophole that I am not aware of.
http://lawyers-inforbritain.uk/b-m-a/can-the-uk-control-its-borders-if-it-remains-in-the-eu/
Some points from that article and the linked-to EU document:
1) Immigration can be subject to 'public policy' whatever that means
2) Immigration from non-EU countries is higher. This we have control over already. So if it's such a big deal why do we not control what we ARE able to anyway? Don't you get the feeling you are being played, dickens?
Another one:
Why shouldn’t we bring in the skills that we need, whether that be doctors or fruit pickers.
You have to appreciate (and Jamba never did) that coming to a country under strict visa obligations is pretty different to having the right to seek work there. How can you settle properly when your right to be in a country hangs on a job? Lose your job, get sent home. Not that attractive of a proposition, is it?
But Singapore does it (for high flying people who can afford the sudden change in circumstances)
People who dislike the idea will never be swayed from the facts, they will also compartmentalise "Good Immigrants" as the ones that they talk to or are friends partners etc. with the "Bad ones" who they never meet.
The more they try and explain it the worse it gets.
My daughters have become best friends with a kid on our street, her parents are Romanian. One drives a bus, the other works in McDonalds part time. The kids are white and don't have an accent. Are they the good kind of immigrant or the bad kind?
The McDonalds still has a vacancies sign in the window, and the bus company - well, it's a new company just starting up to try and take some of the near monopoly of Cardiff Bus. Not sure if he's taken someone's job or not.
A q for Mike - why did you return to the UK? Just curious.
We can limit non eu immigration but not EU, freedom of movement innit. Unless there is some loophole that I am not aware of.
We have powers at our disposal to further restrict migration but choose not to use them. That's a UK issue, not an EU one.
But the EU is still using its powers to force eu nations to take non eu immigrants as well.
Is it? How so?
currently the UK has no strategy for identfying skills shortages and promoting them and preventing those that don’t complement them.
Again - how is this the UK not having a strategy the fault of the EU?
the more I read the more I’m landing on dear old Jamby
Can't be, he's answering questions rather than stating "facts" and then changing the subject.
A q for Mike – why did you return to the UK? Just curious.
Job offer, couldn't get the job to work and live in Hobart over there and had no interest in moving the the mainland cities.
Life is full of chances to push yourself - except some people want to cut those chances off for people 🙁
Can’t be, he’s answering questions rather than stating “facts” and then changing the subject.
It was the immigration lines for me, sounded exactly like the mistruths often spoken, it also looks like someone has been stockpiling posts for a while!! Or check the being made redundant threads
Thank you Mike. Are the mainland cities much different to ours, it's Manchester you're in isn't it? Did NZ not appeal?
Some points from that article and the linked-to EU document:
1) Immigration can be subject to ‘public policy’ whatever that means
2) Immigration from non-EU countries is higher. This we have control over already. So if it’s such a big deal why do we not control what we ARE able to anyway? Don’t you get the feeling you are being played, dickens?
Interesting article and site that molgrips thanks. Yes absolutely we should be controlling migrants from non eu countries. As I've said previously I think there should be an aussie points system.
I am aware of the 'brake' system on benefits but wasn't aware that the UK could halt residence of eu citizens based on 'a genuine, present, serious threat..'. so thats new for me. But realistically if the government tried to use that in meaningful numbers the EU would use all their power to stop it, so it sounds to me like during the negotiations this has been put in as a concession but one that probably won't get used.
No I don't personally get the feeling I've been played, why would I? I am well aware that the government has done virtually nothing to reduce immigration (which has profited me personally) and Fox has even indicated that pre brexit targets will be ripped up post brexit.
Would other brexiteers have the right to feel like they've been played? I don't think so, the article doesn't change anything, everyone with half a brain knows the difference between eu and non eu migration. And anyway, the EU has been using legal means to force EU member states to take non eu migrants (refugees call it what you will).
We all need to look beyond the headlines, if you only read the guardian (insert other crap news source here) you will have a very one dimensional view of the world. To get a balanced view I try to read all news sources time permitting, even the guardian sometimes as well as 'alternative' news sites. And I'm on here debating with you lot, not because I like you (bunch of insufferable whingers) but I'm learning as well.
Tech companies like Arm
I didn't think that they exported anything but licensed their designs, and now that they're wholly owned by SoftBank Group, the profits now go abroad.
Personally, I see little to interest me professionally in the UK after 29th March 2019 beyond the projects that I have ongoing, several of which are 2-3 year timescale. Instead I'm focusing my interest on the US, Canada, Africa and South America where there are infrastructure projects in the pipeline. Australia is a bust flush, and Malaysia seems to be worried about the level of Chinese inward investment and is reducing its reliance.
I just want to correct an error I made the other day, Oldmanmtb wrote this:
The EU supplies us with a whole range of goods that we do not produce or have limited capabilty including Pharma equipment, robot milking machines, bacon, machine tools, tractors etc etc etc we dont have a *ing choice you stupid * the EU on the other hand actually do.
The stupidity is breathtakingly impressive.
And I wrote this:
Oldmanmtb – And? Why can we not still buy this stuff from the EU? Average tariffs range from 1.5% to 2.5% depending on which source you read. Yes cars (10%) and bikes (14%) have high tariffs but most products do not.
But I was getting muddled up with imports and exports (I think I'd answered about 30 posts by that time). The tariffs I quoted were on exports, WE set the tariffs on imports (subject to some bureaucracy and maximum levels). So oldmanmtb we could set a zero tarrif on all of those items if it suited us so it needn't cost us a penny more (apart from the cost of customs handling).
So yes the stupidity is breathtakingly impressive...
World trade will boom for many uk businesses after brexit.
Can anyone give me an example of where and why this might happen, apart from reasons of "necessity being the mother of invention" or stastically because trade with EU will become part of Britain's "world trade" after Brexit.
Excuse my ignorance but exactly how is britains world trade be unshackled by leaving the EU?
I didn’t think that they exported anything but licensed their designs, and now that they’re wholly owned by SoftBank Group, the profits now go abroad.
Thanks if that's the case I didn't know that.
Thank you Mike. Are the mainland cities much different to ours, it’s Manchester you’re in isn’t it? Did NZ not appeal?
I work in the niche end of a niche industry so I'm not just roaming the world picking up work.
Cheers for explaining Mike.
France has restricted immigration from countries which joined last like Romania.
So oldmanmtb we could set a zero tarrif on all of those items if it suited us so it needn’t cost us a penny more
Zero tariffs on imports? But we have tariffs for a reason on those things. I suspect there'd be significant issues if we did that - but of course I'm not an expert on international trade. I wouldn't be glibly touting it as a solution though.
But realistically if the government tried to use that in meaningful numbers the EU would use all their power to stop it
You're condemning the EU on the basis of things it hasn't done, because it supports your pre-existing position. This is why I am accusing you of confirmation bias.
No I don’t personally get the feeling I’ve been played, why would I?
See above. Those promoting leave are appealing to people such as you, who are predisposed to the leave side, and presenting things that they know will reinforce your beliefs. It's how campaigning works.
everyone with half a brain knows the difference between eu and non eu migration
Indeed but sadly that does not cover everyone. Plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest that people did not think through their vote in the least.
And anyway, the EU has been using legal means to force EU member states to take non eu migrants (refugees call it what you will).
Oh now come on! There is a MASSIVE difference between refugees and immigrants! All the difference in the world. You MUST be able to see that surely?!
