The system has not worked for the majority the last 40 years, and things were looking to get worse
Hmm not sure about the last 40 years but certainly the last 10, I agree. But, a few points I have to make:
1. Being an EU member is no barrier to a more egalitarian society. Nordic social democratic countries often praised for their quality of life and equality are EU members.
2. One of the reasons I liked being an EU member is that they kept giving us legislation for things like the environment and workers rights. And been involved with non-legislative good ideas like the Euro NCAP system which has improved car safety.
3. If you think leaving the EU is going to make the UK into a social democratic provided land you're off your rocker. It's going to get worse, not better. Tories will slash our rights and standards in an effort to stay competitive, which brings me onto
4. To spend money for public benefit you need to be making it, you need a strong economy so you can tax it without stifling growth. The EU removes barriers for trade and for the labour market to enable economic growth. By suddenly sticking a load of barriers in the way of trade we're about to make it way harder to deal with the UK which is going to make companies in the rest of the EU want to shop elsewhere.
I'd like to see you address each of these points mooman. If you are serious and not trolling I'd like you to show me the courtesy of responding to this post.
The idea that all of the problems of this country are caused by the EU, and none by our successive governments is absurd.
I dont hear anyone claiming that "all of the problems" were. But as it happens, The damage was done for many of us when we witnessed the the folly of the ERM. In the Labour years under Blair you'll recall that the politicians of both sides told us that Britain was doomed if we didn't join the Euro (we weren't as it happened) Then Blair handed away half our rebate in return for CAP reform that never happened.
People aren't stupid, they watched UK factories closed and the same companies open new factories in Romania and Poland, shipping in the same goods at the same price, but paying the staff half as much.
Had the governments of the day sat up and listened, and re-negotiated the UK's membership terms, things may have been different, and in a much more positive way, but they didnt. Whether you like it or not, Under Blair, Brown and Cameron many people felt that the UK just surrendered to the EU on sovereign issue after sovereign issue. In particular, immigration control, primacy of EU laws (eg ECHR), and public services being swamped by "foreigners" of all hues, with the right to work in the UK. When they then saw them getting handed keys to council houses it was enough.
The bottom line is this, and I say it in all seriousness: for the citizens of Hartlepool, Grimsby, Seaham Harbour, Bolton, Boston, March, Downham Market, etc. The status quo has not been good for them and that is why they voted the way that they did.
Remain failed to mobilise the vote, because the campaign was arrogant/ignorant enough to think no-one could possibly be stupid enough to vote leave in any numbers that would count. 'Remains' complacency lost them the referendum. So we're in a situation where the political elite didn’t want brexit. It rocked the boat, and we’re now seeing every trick in the book to push for a U turn.
****em I say.
Finally ninfan attempts some sort of reasons, no benefits mind.
Plenty of contradictions & innacuracies though:
We didn't join the Euro, but everything was fine, inspite of the warnings, while at the same time e everything is terrible hence the brexit protest vote?
Chuck in some ill informed anti immigrant ranting, a bit of remoaner elite brexishambles scapegoating & ignorance about the ECHR & we have the ninfan brexit manifesto !
(Must be my narrow-mindedness)
no benefits mind.
I've told you already. The biggest benefit is watching you lot screaming.
you know, a bit like how one of the benefits of unrestricted EU immigration was the opportunity to "rub the right's nose in diversity"
The referendum was yours to lose.
public services being swamped by “foreigners” of all hues
…and we're back to immigration.
Ninfan loves a bit of "hue" based shit stirring. I'd say he is a nasty little racist, if I was allowed. He'd say he was speaking about the views of others though, or some other kind of smart pro-troll line to keep on the correct side of forum rules. Stupid he is not.
I’ve told you already. The biggest benefit is watching you lot screaming.
I don't know what to say about that, I really don't
you know, a bit like how one of the benefits of unrestricted EU immigration was the opportunity to “rub the right’s nose in diversity”
The benefit in our eyes was the diversity. The thought to rub your nose in diversity was furthest from our mind.
Its good that you admit trolling is your main motivation!
sorry that damn narrow-mindedness, meant i didnt pick up inyour post
anyway heres that fine brexishambles mess youve got us into (oh no wait, its the remoaner elites fault for losing the vote?)
https://twitter.com/Simon_Nixon/status/1023475369431773185
The benefit in our eyes was the diversity.
Did you ever think that some people might disagree with you?
What, in your opinion, gave you the right to impose diversity on other people without asking them first? Maybe in a referendum on expansion of EC membership or a referendum on acceptance of EC immigration laws?
Why wouldn't you want to do that? Afraid that people might vote against it?
(caveat here - I'm talking about the imposition of what amounts to enforced introduction of cultural diversity regardless of what other people might wish - I couldn't give a flying fig about race or colour)
So still you can't tell people what would be better out of the eu just that people didn't convince enough that leave was a good idea. Easy to see why brexit is such an omnishambles really. Nobody on the leave side planned on winning.
(caveat here – I’m talking about the imposition of what amounts to enforced introduction of cultural diversity regardless of what other people might wish – I couldn’t give a flying fig about race or colour)
And there we have the smart lie to cover for the racism.
so you dont mind different races or skin colours, just different cultures,-- meh, its all the same xenophobic bag
so you dont like immigrants, at least we have a benefit, your culturally pure britania, of yore!
And there we have the smart lie to cover for the racism.
No, wrong - I've said repeatedly that I'm more than happy to have people here from any colour or race you like.
Theres loads of Nigerian, Kenyan, Indian, ****stani, American, Australian, West Indian & all sorts of other people I would rather let into this country over and above giving a right of unrestricted immigration to anyone and everyone from Europe regardless of skills, history, culture or criminal past.
so you dont mind different races or skin colours, just different cultures
Yep, for starters I'd ban religious slaughter (Halal and Kosher) tomorrow. I'd refuse to recognise polygamous or polyandrous marriages within any system of government and I'd ban arranged marriages.
Do they not have "different cultures"?
Define who exactly you want to keep out… come on… be proud of who your hate is targeted at… why be coy?
The biggest benefit is watching you lot screaming.
Hang on a minute there. What about sovereignty, what about all those buccaneering trade deals, the taking back of control, fewer people talking foreign on the bus? What about the selling stuff by the pound, the aspiration to lower environmental protections, to reduce worker's rights, for Britain to have the most powerful, throbbingest vacuum cleaners in the world? Can the ultimate achievement of the Brexit dream really just come down to you being happy because somebody else isn't?
The paucity of your ambition is awfully disappointing.
Oh, they're all brilliant Johnners, just that none of them are quite as satisfying as watching you lot screaming
Ah, so pro-troll, or just doing it for kicks?
People aren’t stupid, they watched UK factories closed and the same companies open new factories in Romania and Poland, shipping in the same goods at the same price, but paying the staff half as much.
Leaving the EU will not being the factories back unless people are either prepared to pay more for the goods, the workers get paid less or are happy to see a lower return on investments and pensions.
If these conditions are not met then the goods will come from Asia most likely. Mind you once we leave the EU we will be free from all those import limits from China, India and turkey all the factories and low paid jobs will flood back...
the future for the UK is not trying to regain the past but looking to a higher tech more mobile population...
Yep, for starters I’d ban religious slaughter (Halal and Kosher) tomorrow. I’d refuse to recognise polygamous or polyandrous marriages within any system of government and I’d ban arranged marriages.
ah yes, I can see how Brexit will make all this happen
I think youre better off just admitting that trolling is your primary motivation, it makes you look less confused
anyway heres that fine brexishambles mess youve got us into (oh no wait, its the remoaner elites fault for losing the vote?)
So, we can't be told how to prepare for Brexit, because people might then get an idea of what Brexit actually means, before it's too late too stop it?
Just another successful day in a democracy.
Leaving the EU will not being the factories back
Then the companies won't sell anything will they (you know, given as how theres going to be no trade with the EU and we're all going to be living off ration cards because of "hard brexit")
As you know, theres nothing international companies like better than not selling things.
given as how theres going to be no trade with the EU
Said no one. Ever. No one. Ever.
So, we can’t be told how to prepare for Brexit, because people might then get an idea of what Brexit actually means, before it’s too late too stop it?
its even better than that, the plan was to put billboards up across the EU, to try & scare them! (even though EU produced their own regional impact assessments months ago & didnt try & hide them ala Davis)
https://twitter.com/Sime0nStylites/status/1023673522198138880
the plan was to put billboards up across the EU, to try & scare them!
I think that was just Baker's private view (smells like Bannon to me), not the gov's plan.
Said no one. Ever. No one. Ever.
just let him rant his ninsense Kelvin
And just for clarities sake that 'unrestricted EU immigration' you dislike isn't the EUs fault but the UK governments for failing to use any of the powers legally at its disposal....ever. Not that we haven't covered that in great detail numerous times already.
Id love to see these billboards, even if its is just Bakers plan, especially in light of the governments attempts to translate its white paper for EU heads of state
Did you ever think that some people might disagree with you?
(caveat here – I’m talking about the imposition of what amounts to enforced cultural diversity – I couldn’t give a flying fig about race or colour)
Yes I did, however 'some' is the operative word in your statement. There are many people up here in Scotland that have exactly the same opinion as you regarding enforced cultural diversity. They seek independence from Westminster and have no sense of affinity to Britain. The 'butchers apron' as they call it is no flag of theirs.
Your rhetoric is very similar to someone like epicyclo. Similarly, Mhari Black could listen to Jacob Rees Mogg all day, and Alex Salmond has expressed his admiration for Putin.
Similarities between you all revolve around your need to see the differences between peoples, and to look after number one, with an 'us' and 'them' rhetoric based on ethnicity. In 2014 I voted to keep Scotland in the UK, thinking we were all similar and wanted to be in a larger collection called the EU. On the back of this I voted remain in 2016. Having seen how the result panned out I feel badly let down, stupid at myself, and ashamed at current direction of the UK.
At the minute around the world there are too many politicians promising gold plated unicorns to their respective electorates, and no shortage of people believing gold plated unicorns will be delivered to them imminently. I look forward to your pro indy stance now ninfan, or a well reasoned response as to why your nationalism is different from theirs. How would you defend Nicola Sturgeon stockpiling medicine and processed food after an indy vote?
While I consider the people of these islands of any race or colour that deserve my respect, you can continue to consider the enforced cultural diversity you have had to endure over the last 40 years.
well said athegray
Its interesting how both mooman & ninfan are now blaming the remoaner elites for bexit being an absolute shitshow & not deliveing any of the (undeliverable) promises that were made (tho curiously not attacking the shysters who made them)
Then the companies won’t sell anything will they
If they moved as you say to a country where they can pay people less and increase their profits this is what they will continue to do.
if you honestly believe that moving the manufacturing supply chain from a low cost country (or community) can be replicated internally at the same or lower cost you have list you mind.
If it was cheaper to make the product here it would be made here.
Now if your arguments are that we will impose (we impose import tariffs) such high tariffs for the rest of the world (not just the EU) that it now becomes economic to manufacture in the UK you have a point about factories coming back.
obviously this would mean huge rises in the cost of many consumer goods which I am fine with as we all seem to have too much anyway.
there is only an upside on leaving if quality of living increases. So wages need to go up, cost of living down, higher social mobility, better services etc.
not 50 years from now before 2020.. my money is not on JRM et al to deliver this to anyone except themselves
Wealth takers V wealth makers...
Which camp you sat in Ninfan?
In the Labour years under Blair you’ll recall that the politicians of both sides told us that Britain was doomed if we didn’t join the Euro
But they put some bloody robust criteria in place to protect us. And we didn't go in.
Yes I did, however ‘some’ is the operative word in your statement.
Yeah... turns out that 'some' added up to 52% in the end.
isn’t the EUs fault but the UK governments for failing to use any of the powers legally at its disposal….ever. Not that we haven’t covered that in great detail numerous times already.
Wow, So pro-EU governments and the establishment who wanted to rub the rights nose in diversity didn't seek to restrict immigration... who knew?
Its interesting how both mooman & ninfan are now blaming the remoaner elites for bexit being an absolute shitshow
A remainer prime minister, in charge of an almost entirely remainer civil service failed to plan for the possibility that we might vote to leave, and was replaced by another remainer prime minister, in charge of the same remainer civil service, who again failed to seriously deal with the issues around doing something (leaving) that they didn't want to do in the first place.
Colour me shocked!
obviously this would mean huge rises in the cost of many consumer goods
Since when were any consumer goods priced on a multiple of the cost of manufacture rather than the cost that the market would bear? See Apple for the perfect example.
See Apple for the perfect example.
They are a perfect example of a lifestyle item and there is a reason they moved first component manufacturing and then assembly out of the US.
when a microwave or washing machine etc or items with a lower margin jump in price it won’t be pulling jobs back to the UK. It might be pulling smuggled items through NI...
we should not be trying to compete with Chinese assembly lines.
Not the civil services job to develop brexit policy, it's the government's. Perhaps the minister for brexit could have done that. And the issue isn't ", e, and was replaced by another remainer prime minister, in charge of the same remainer civil service, who again failed to seriously deal with the issues " it's a brexit government who have no idea what brexit will look like, or indeed what they wanted in th first place and no ability to negotiate with the Eu.
Yeah… turns out that ‘some’ added up to 52% in the end.
Actually, it turns out that 'some' added up to 52% of just 17% of the voting age population. That is to say, less than 10% of voters overall.
I note that those of poop's apparent persuasion demand, for instance, at least 50% participation in union strike votes.
On a matter of such profound and historical importance, with planet-wide ramifications, I suggest that this minimal attendance should have, by itself, triggered a rerun.
I note that poop says he is happy to accept immigrants into the UK from anywhere but the EU.
At least, I suppose, he recognises the need for immigrants to help maintain the economy and infrastructure in a country where the workforce would otherwise simply shrink. I wonder why he's racially prejudiced against eastern Europeans?
There is no unrestricted freedom of movement in the EU. It's movement of labour. And benefits? In-work benefits, not all benefits. So many of the things ninfan command about are our choices.
Btw, , does anyone else find the comment editor thing excruciatingly slow and awkward to use on a phone? As though there it's some messed up JavaScript going on.
Ninfan buying the is the remainer civil servants line wholesale I see.
Exactly as us remoaners predicted. The IFG report into brexit specifically noted that the problems lay with policy making, not civil service.
You'd think that the headless chicken dance in government & obvious incompetence of Davis, would have been enough to convince that brexit was an inevitable disaster
Oh look it has
https://twitter.com/SkyData/status/1023799409367244800?s=19
Ah, opinion polls. How quaint.
Do you remember back when the opinion polls reassured you all that remain was going to win, so you and your millennial mates didn't bother actually voting.
LOL, it warms the cockles of my heart it does.
You’re starting to sound worried, ninfan.
I suppose trying to wind people up is all you really have, though, so not surprising in the least.
Let’s just suppose you are genuine, but I have a strong suspicion you are also on the DM comments pages doing a passable impersonation of Lev Trotsky......
But, let’s pretend, just for now.
What is Brexit going to deliver for the ‘masses’ that have so unwisely been mobilized by implicit and explicit promises of a White Britain rolling in spare cash for the NHS?
A stab in the back myth will only get you so far and the clock is ticking.
We all know Ninfan doesn't like Poles.
Anyway, the polling proved to be pretty accurate. Late swing towards Leave, that corresponded perfectly with Cummings' stated plan as regards the DUP/LEAVE.EU/BeLeave/Mercer social media effort/spend. Clever chappy.
Do you remember back when the opinion polls reassured you all that remain was going to win
Presumably, poop would still decry the worth of polling, if this result showed the reverse...
Its interesting how both mooman & ninfan
Nothing they say is interesting but it is becoming even clearer by the day both of them are trolls who you lot are continuing to feed and giving them the pleasure they are after.
Interesting that they are so interested in seeing their claims shot down almost as soon as they make them.
Often, several times over, in their desperation.
Happy to help pull the trigger.
Presumably, poop would still decry the worth of polling, if this result showed the reverse…
In the words of his current hero: FAKE NEWS! Bigly...
