What are you expecting to hear
That Labour supports staying in the Single Market and Customs Union… i.e. that they have a plan that can be implemented, where the government do not. Additionally, that they will call for a referendum for "US" to choose between that deal and membership. I think that referendum could be won by the "outer ring" proposal, and we'd still leave. The alternative is, however we Leave, it will be sold as being "not the Brexit people voted for"… so it has to go back to the people. Most Labour supporters would support this clear two step approach… and so would many others, when it is compared to what the Tory/ERG/DUP/Hoey types are pushing on us.
Tory/ERG/DUP/Hoey types are pushing on us.
This is how it will happen.
There will be no deal.
In the years between leaving the EU and the next GE the rush will be on to completely tie us to the USA in attempt to set our future path in stone regardless of who wins the next GE.
You only need to look back a few years to see what the likes of David Davis, Liam fox were doing and who with, they were attending conferences in the US where the only talking point was how they could wrench the UK away from the EU and tie it to the US.
The type of conservatism you are seeing from Johnson, and Mogg etc, is not the British version, its the US version. The use of language, Johnson in his resignation letter calling us a Colony, or Davis recently blaming the French, or the Irish should shut their gobs over the border is all very deliberate. Some would say this is the leavers trying to absolve themselves of them blame for the coming sh*t storm, but it was always part of their plan.
Remember when people believed when the leavers said leaving the EU didn't mean leaving the SM or CU? I'm sure many people voted to leave on this premise, well now we see it wasn't true. All part of the plan.
Even this week when the Tories once again broke parliamentary conventions to achieve their goal of getting the country over the brexit line with no deal. The country has shifted to the right by a very long way, its not fascism as many are calling it, but we are on our way, and all it takes it 40% of the electorate to continue voting this way to achieve everything we are witnessing here.
And what of this glorious brexit?
Millions of jobs lost? Irrelevant.
Lower standards of living? Irrelevant.
NHS sucked up by US private health care companies? Excellent.
The intention was always to destroy it and rebuild it in their image. With quite a bit of disaster capitalism along the way.
Oh, I suppose I had better mention Corbyn and militan...I mean momentum, you ain't got a chance.
Have you heard May's speech?
Backstop is now dead.
Back to square one.
Nothing to show for last 2 years.
That Labour supports staying in the Single Market and Customs Union… i.e. that they have a plan that can be implemented, where the government do not.
Why would they support that though? When they are meant to be elected representatives of people who voted leave?
I'm playing devil's advocate here but tbh it's a fair question isn't it?
Because if you oppose people who do not have a workable plan, then you need to have a workable plan, or you are just expelling hot air, not showing you can do a better job.
SM&CU in an EEA+ manner means we are no longer members of the EU and allows future campaigns/politicians to push for cutting/replacing trade ties, if they wish. People have not voted yet to cut those trading ties, only the political ties. Any working replacement trading arrangement has yet to be spelt out, or agreed, within any party, or supported by any vote, by anyone.
Brexit is dead, just no-one realises yet. I'm still not sure how it's going to end, but I'm sure it will end. Politics can't trump reality.
Because if you oppose people who do not have a workable plan, then you need to have a workable plan, or you are just expelling hot air
No, you need to convince the public you have a workable plan. That's not the same as having one... Hot air isn't a problem in electoral terms as long as it's hot air people like.
And what happens to the UK when your bluff is called?
Just bullshit some more, isn't that standard practice?
I'm hoping that the end of that particular line is being reached though. But the problem is that leavers are always going to blame the EU if it goes tits up, and remainers are going to blame the government. That's confirmation bias, and it's human nature.
Brexit is dead, just no-one realises yet.
Reading the papers today, some of them seem convinced that it's not dead and that various EU countries are preparing for the UK to simply crash out with no deal.
Genuinely though - what happens? There's a realistaion that what is happening is criminal negligence of the highest order and they back down or they drive the bus off the edge and screw the consequences?
The “moderates” are the way ahead despite those idiots being the ones who helped UKIP and co gain ground when they dived rightwards after the tories to chase the “centre” ground.
No, that was May legitimizing the hatred of immigrants during her time in the Home Office. Most peoples lives, including the majority of the working classes - got better under the Blairites.
Her go to answer was “I don’t care” no discussion, no thought, no politely embarrassed murmur just “I don’t care”.
We are well and truly ****. I’ll add she seemed an intelligent young woman and fairly well off. The sort of person that would be all for striding forward but, well, she just doesn’t care.
That's the answer I get from even close friends who are brexiteers. You mention the food/dairy issue - the answer is "oh but I support more jobs being created for UK farmers", so the question then becomes "So are you happy for high tech jobs that bring money into the country being replaced by fruit picking jobs, how is regressing as economic power a positive? Do you see Japan attempting to build a cotton picking industry?". The answer is then somewhere along the lines of "Shut up, I don't care, this isn't a debate, you're talking down at me. I've heard all the arguments, I'm a doer not a moaner".
I'd add that these people, are people who think that they are intelligent, they may even be quite specialized in a tight technical field - but they tend to base their opinions on one or two opinion column writers that they choose to read. They rarely read outside of their technical field and when they do, it's the opinion of a limited amount of writers - as they either do not care or do not have the time to read around a lot of subjects and develop a more holistic view of the world around them. They tend hold people like Jacob Rees Mogg in veneration, as the ideal image of an "intelligent person", however as the Guardian has stated, Mogg is the stupid persons idea of a clever person.
Unfortunately, the age of the polymath is dead.
That Labour supports staying in the Single Market and Customs Union… i.e. that they have a plan that can be implemented, where the government do not.
What is the point of a plan when you are not the people putting the plan in place and what if that plan would require us to keep freedom of movement and what if the Labour voters that voted Leave didn't like that plan ? But mainly, how is the Labour plan going to be implemented ?
kelvin
Subscriber
Have you heard May’s speech?
Backstop is now dead.
Back to square one.
Nothing to show for last 2 years.
Has anyone got the actual quote. It sounds like she said something rather interesting - that the backstop should apply to the whole U.K.
I wonder what that means.
Barnier now:
Thanks for the paper, but how's any of this going to work?
He doesn't believe in unicorns then?
But mainly, how is the Labour plan going to be implemented ?
By being ready for, and forcing, a general election. This whole "not in power, don't need a plan" doesn't seem to apply to the NHS, taxation, pensions… etc… just to international trade and cooperation/coordination. You want votes? You want to be in power? You need policies that are better than the alternatives offered. You need to spell out how you will implement those policies.
This government is only winning votes in parliament with the support of DUP and Labour MPs… it is balanced on a knife edge… but will only falll if put under pressure by an opposition that has set out, and can win support for, a way out of our current stalemate.
How does not having a hard border fulfill the wishes of the WTO?
Do we need to stop talks with Brussels and try and get a better deal from Geneva?
Why certain politicians are so keen to bow down before an unelected foreign beauracracy I don't know.
Traitors.
I hope (but doubt) labour are silent because they have a bloody good plan that they don't want stealing or rubbishing before the next general election.
There won't be general election in time, unless they make a move… of course, many of us suspect that is the plan… to not make a move… to ensure any general election is too late… and then to assume power only after the damage is done.
I think this shares a lot in common with BoJo's plan.
Politics can’t trump reality.
Who's reality?
The people clamouring for no deal brexit view it as very real, they have an end game and its irrelevant who or what gets trampled on to achieve it.
Real reality. We can't do the borders, no time no plan no money, we can't survive without imported food, not for more than a few days. That's only the first bit. We can't fly planes either, well not legally. Nor nuclear power or radiation in medicine. All these things are immediate civilisation-threatening problems. There are others.
Kelvin - thanks for that link. I think I need a pint of what she’s having.
if I wrote something that convoluted, imprecise and indefinite at work they’d fire me.
Vacuous nonsense.
On the other hand, it had at least one sound bite for everyone.
@kelvin, disaster recovery is probably easier than disaster prevention right now.
I say easier from a standpoint that no one would get elected by just saying "let's just pretend all this Brexit stuff never happened and cary on as we were" even though they probably should.
So the Belfast agreement allows the Irish to choose to be Irish or British. Essentially a freedom of movement (of nationality)
How will that work going forward for someone in Derry who wants to be Irish any go live there, which they can do now under the EU and Belfast Agreement, but they're then told they can't because no FoM? Or will the Irish be given special allowance?
Basically the whole thing, as may and the Tories want it, can't happen.
We can leave the EU at the expense of the Belfast agreement. There is no fudged solution at all.
By being ready for, and forcing, a general election.
And again, what if the voters don't like the Labour plan or don't care about it and the tories win again with help from media. What sort of plan would bring people around to a majority agreement?
That's why they need to offer:
1) a plan for an achievable deal
2) a public vote on that plan
the time for fantasy politics is over
The Tories
1) don't have a plan
2) have ruled out a public vote
pair those two together, and they are ripe for being brought down and replaced
There is no realistic plan that can win in a vote, if the public are also offered a fantasy. Hence all that they (we) will be offered is a choice of fantasies.
Or will the Irish be given special allowance?
Still covered under the common travel area?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area
In all seriousness the major services will keep running money from the magic money tree will be thrown at the problems and a half arsed implementation of “standards” will be applied
shortly followed by austerity max...
1) a plan for an achievable deal
2) a public vote on that plan
And again, what if the public don't vote for the achievable deal (assuming you have a guarantee that it will be agreed and not just something that just looks achievable). Remember how the public are not very good at voting for the right thing....
We choose the deal, or we give up on Brexit.
At some point, that decision needs to be made, and it looks like it'll have to be made by "US"…
…a wise Labour Party would now say…
"Here is a proposal for a workable deal. If you want a Brexit like this, vote for us… or if you now think Brexit should be abandoned, also vote for us. The Tories are the party of no deal Brexit, we are not. We are the party of anything but no deal Brexit."
A shed load of people will still go for no deal because they don't understand the entire consequences, does anyone?.
They've been sold the idea that anything EU is bad, therefore everything not EU is good. Plus they are largely deluded and believe we have the upper hand because we're British and British is best. No deal means the EU will cave to our superiority and give us what we want.
Labour can offer two ways out:
- an achievable Brexit plan
- a public vote
Those who want maximum disruption, with no plan for the future, can vote for someone else.
Let those people vote Tory or UKIP.
I think most of them will anyway.
Let those people vote Tory or UKIP.
I think most of them will anyway
Yes, the same that are voting Tory or UKIP now. You are rating the average voter a lot more highly than I am.
You know most of the voters won't have a clue what you are on about and just want to know when the immigrants are going don't you?
Great Ben Jennings cartoon in today’s Guardian
You know most of the voters won’t have a clue what you are on about and just want to know when the immigrants are going don’t you?
Clearly I do think more highly of other voters than you do.
So, do you want a general election? Do you want another vote specifically about Brexit? Or do you want some remix of the current shower to sleepwalk us into a mess that'll take the rest of our working lives to clean up properly?
A shed load of people will still go for no deal because they don’t understand the entire consequences, does anyone?.
A lot of people will vote for no deal because
it is at least a tangible option where there are some established rules (wto)
Remainers who want to punish leavers (or vice versa)
Or for all the noise and bullshit inactivity to go away (from the news). I think people would like to be living in caves rather than watch one more tv show full of hot air.
That's the irony… you can't vote to "tear it all up" and then expect it to be quietly over by tea time.
The brexiteer mentality is laid bare when barnier points out the bleeding obvious fact that the white paper isn't a workable proposal and Rees mogg likens him to an aggressive mafia boss. Well let's hope nanny finds a horses head next to Teddy at bedtime tonight Jacob.
it is at least a tangible option where there are some established rules (wto)
It still doesn't seem to have sunk in yet that the WTO is a private members club, of which the UK is only currently a member through being in the EU. The US, Brazil and Australia have stated that they would block UK membership unless they get trade deals that benefit them. There is no automatic enrolment to trading under WTO and some countries have seen weakness and decided to go in for the kill. When brexiteers claim we can/will trade under WTO rules post brexit they are lying (who'd have funked it), it is another agreement that has to be reached quickly but current member will be able to dictate terms, so the UK will be royally rogered.
https://www.ft.com/content/92bb5636-a95b-11e7-ab55-27219df83c97
https://www.ictsd.org/opinion/nothing-simple-about-uk-regaining-wto-status-post-brexit
Anna Soubry on the last leg at 10.
That could be interesting
Currently sat in Zell Am See hospital waiting for my wife to come around from surgery after she broke her arm this morning.
Marvellous things these EHIC cards.
Nicer even than a blue passport though?
Hope your better half is ok Col
Can we expect a hike in European holiday insurance?
