It won't be another referendum but a G.E that solves* Brexit. May goes, Bojo or other in and then:
Bojo hard vs
Corbyn soft vs
Cable stay
*unlikely
@ctk; so a LibLab coalition then? Not the worst case scenario in fairness.
Surely there's no "soft brexit" that makes any sense whatsoever? If we're going to accept FoM we might as well stay in the EU. What do we gain?
What do we gain from any of it? vs what we lose?
The harder the Brexit, the more of our current benefits we lose, and the more hypothetical benefits we *might* gain according to a load of people I really don't trust in the least.
Surely there’s no “soft brexit” that makes any sense whatsoever? If we’re going to accept FoM we might as well stay in the EU. What do we gain?
I said this a couple of pages back. It's the "least worst" brexit option and looks at first glance like it might be a reasonable compromise, but it pleases literally no-one. The remainers don't want it and the leavers don't want it either. It achieves, as you allude to, absolutely nothing.
Yes but thats the point it has to be a compromise- the vote was 52-48.
I've just seen some mealy-mouthed Conservative spokesman, 'Bernard Jenkins' apparently, say that the changes made to the Chequers Brexit Agreement have not changed the Chequers Brexit Agreement.
For their 52% of the vote the Brexiteers get to leave the EU, for their 48% of the vote the remainers get a soft Brexit.
So we all get ****ed, but gently. Remind me why we are supposed to be doing this again?
It's a "cut the child in half, and give each parent half each" type of compromise. And then expect both parents to accept your wisdom.
So we all get ****, but gently
Not all of us. Some will make a pretty penny out of it.
Someone needs to put in an amendment to screw over Rees-Moggs business side step to Dublin and Lamont French residency (say MP salary needs to remain in UK or similar) amongst others.
And it isn't a "soft Brexit", nothing like it. But people suspect that it's something that will be modified towards that when negotiations get going. I think it's more likely to go nowhere.
Once again, returning from a trip to Europe, I'm reminded how utterly bonkers it is that we are leaving. Perhaps the remain campaign should have just paid for trips for all to some random part of Europe as a campaign tool....
The people closest to me that voted Leave have a house in France that they've visited several times a year for 40+ years. Plenty of regular visitors to other EU countries that are convinced we're better off out.
Yes but thats the point it has to be a compromise- the vote was 52-48.
a) It doesn't have to be anything of the sort, it was an advisory referendum.
b) It's not a compromise at all, as @kelvin eloquently explained it a few posts back.
c) The "compromise" here, as I've said multiple times, is to address the concerns of those who voted leave. The #1 reason for voting leave was our immigration policy, we can shore that up without leaving the EU. Reform, not remain.
Not all of us. Some will make a pretty penny out of it.
It's not even that that's their main motivation. Just because the Brexiteers won't vocalise a coherent vision, don't be fooled into thinking they don't have one. They do. They always have. But its unlikely many people would vote for it. This they know full well. Just look at the people who we're talking about here, and look at their general opinions on pretty much anything.
They're all free-market fundamentalist zeaolts
They want to turn the UK into a sweatshop/tax haven economy, using freedom from the EU to tear up workers rights, environmental controls, slash tax for corporations and the rich, dismantle the welfare state, and privatise everything in sight, but most of all the NHS.
They're quite coy about saying this publically, but be in no doubt what the long term goal is. The fact that they got the working classes, who are going to be absolutely ****ed over if they get their way, is one of the greatest political deceptions ever pulled
ION, Robert Peston earlier today:
"So as I suggested earlier looked likely to happen, Theresa May seems to have capitulated and accepted all the rebel Brexiter ERG amendments to the Customs Bill.
Or at least that is what well-placed sources tell me.
If so, Theresa May has "swallowed something designed [by the ERG] to be indigestible" - and has thus shown herself to have become their hostage.
Her Chequers Brexit deal seems to be history only days after the ink on its associated white paper has dried: it is difficult to see the EU agreeing to levy the UK's tariffs, as the ERG amendment demands; and absent that implausible agreement from the EU, there is no longer a credible customs plan that would keep open the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic (or at least not one that the EU would recognise).
This implies the UK no longer has a credible plan for its future trading relationship with the EU.
Which feels like crisis territory. And it's only Monday."
The people closest to me that voted Leave have a house in France that they’ve visited several times a year for 40+ years.
I know now similar people in Spain who did the same. The expectations are that they get to keep everything they already have but also get more.
there is never any mention of sacrifice in the leave campaign. This is why a second referendum would turn out the same. The options are be a rule taker (sacrifice) or be a world leader in WTO...
There have been no consequences as the event has not happened. All these aircraft and car manufacturers need to do is make their parts in the UK then there is no customs issue. Simple jobs all round. The stock markets are up but these mean nothing to people in general.
I do like the idea of all MPs being required to onshore not just their salary but all of their money and investments...
That's the "they need us more than we need them mentally" they think we can still do what we like while stopping everyone else doing similar.
So Cougar you're unwilling to compromise nor are the RW media backed hard Brexit brigade. I wonder who will win?
Just to be clear Idont see the Chequers paper as a soft Brexit.
So Cougar you’re unwilling to compromise nor are the RW media backed hard Brexit brigade. I wonder who will win?
The RW media have already won to a large extent. All they need is no workable deal to be offered and they can blame the EU
the time for compromise and reform was after the referendum and then no article 50.
No politicians will stand up and say this is madness we need to stop and take a step back. It has gone too far
There was never impetus for a plan or a deal so there is none.
Make no mistake the RW papers will blame the EU for not accepting the deal or giving us options. The LW papers will blame incompetent ministers. Ministers will resign and that revenue will disappear but the EU will remain as a focus for hate... at some point remainers will start hating the EU as it reminds them of what they lost...
at some point remainers will start hating the EU as it reminds them of what they lost
I know where my hate is going to be directed, and it isn't the EU. It's at the lying, scheming, self-serving, mendacious bastards who got us this far.
I'd happily serve time to be left alone in a room with Boris Johnson
I know where my hate is going to be directed
How much of it should be directed towards the idiots who voted for it? I'm about as leftwing as they come but I really struggle to have much sympathy for the white working class who have allowed their ignorant prejudices to override their own interests.
How much of it should be directed towards the idiots who voted for it? I’m about as leftwing as they come but I really struggle to have much sympathy for the white working class who have allowed their ignorant prejudices to override their own interests.
Yessir massah
how dare the savage proletariat attempt to undermine your bourgeois lifestyle at the risk of their own servitude
how dare the savage proletariat attempt to undermine your bourgeois lifestyle at the risk of their own servitude
Is that what you think has happened here?
You think that somehow, post-Brexit, the country's going to become more left wing and egalitarian? Really?
how dare the savage proletariat attempt to undermine your bourgeois lifestyle at the risk of their own servitude
and how is it going to get better?
How much of it should be directed towards the idiots who voted for it?
I have to admit when I see people in Cornwall and Wales, in particular, saying they hope they will keep being handed bundles of cash and getting worried it wont happen my sympathy levels are rather low.
I just hope they dont fall for the lies again and this time hold the right set of elites to blame. Although admittedly most of them would be hard to find since they are busy off shoring everything.
You think that somehow, post-Brexit, the country’s going to become more left wing and egalitarian? Really?
Its already become more democratic.
and how is it going to get better?
Lefties like you have spent years paying lip service to ‘inequality’ while not giving a flying **** about the factories and jobs lost to the EU. You think the people in northern mill towns really care if you find it more difficult to spend a week in Provence?
Its already become more democratic.
Lolz. Is your ideal democracy where the people get to vote on every major issue? You think that's going to be better? Answer this please.
But also answer the original question - do you think the UK is going to become more egalitarian and equal after Brexit? If so, why?
Lolz. Is your ideal democracy where the people get to vote on every major issue? You think that’s going to be better? Answer this please.
Nah Ninfan's ideal place is where the people who agree with him make sure that their point of view is protected from those who are not the same. The way he belittles opponents as lefties etc. tells you he doesn't like to be challenged or have his views confronted. It's a shame debate is now at the point of name calling rather than engaging over facts.
You think the people in northern mill towns really care if you find it more difficult to spend a week in Provence?
How much time do you spend in northern mill towns?
You think the people in northern mill towns really care if you find it more difficult to spend a week in Provence?
What the **** has Provence got to do with it? Going abroad is a middle class thing is it?
Working class people go on ****ing holiday too you ****.
Working class people go on * holiday too you *.
Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth.
liberty equality fraternity
How does Brexit deliver that to the people??
Erm I live in a northern Mill town and I enjoy my European holidays.
I also have to work for a living so that makes me a working class Northern mill Town dweller.
My parents emigrated to mainland Europe too, so it's nice to be able to flit over for a visit and it's nice for them to have reciprocal health care agreements in place so they don't have to pay crippling private insurance costs.
Maybe they'll get booted out of Spain and forced to repatriate into the UK.if all this nonsense goes ahead.
Ninfan once again demonstrates what a troll he is.
Ninfan once again demonstrates what a troll he is.
Once Rabb and Rees-Mogg get in charge and wipe out those tedious regulations which protect workers to some degree then he will be right. Be no time for holidays in the brave new world. A day trip to Blackpool or another seaside town was good enough for the commoners in Victorian times and so will be good enough again.
I live in a northern mill town. How are things going to improve for me and my friends ninfan? I’m especially thinking about the ones who work for a gym equipment importer who’s prices went up after brexit but who’s customers won’t stand the increase so the company is now working at a loss?
Mooman
Most of the remainers are not ignorant. Pretty much everything predicted by remain has happened. Leave still cannot come up with a coherent plan and all their prediction have been shown to be bogus
You think the people in northern mill towns really care if you find it more difficult to spend a week in Provence?
I live in a northern milltown, and grew up on a council estate in an ex-mining village in Newcastle, and yet I managed to see past the dog-whistle politics of the right and their media collaborators. Clearly I am a class traitor. If that's the case then I have no shame in being a bourgeoise bastard.
I live in a northern mill town. How are things going to improve for me and my friends ninfan?
Do you earn more than, or less than, the median wage?
how dare the savage proletariat attempt to undermine your bourgeois lifestyle at the risk of their own servitude
Voting themselves deeper into servitude doesn't help them.
how dare the savage proletariat attempt to undermine your bourgeois lifestyle at the risk of their own servitude
It's pretty miserable being poor. Voting to make yourself even more poor doesn't exactly help matters
wait a minute did the EU close down the mills?
those cotton embargoing bastards!!!
Ninfan talking absolute grade A dog poop, please show us a single bit of evidence that UK manufacturing has declined because of EU membership?
Manufacturing output in real terms has been pretty good since we joined the EU (since 2008 not so much), productivity growth better than service sector even, but of course jobs have declined, its almost as if technology has completely changed the industry! (well that & st maggie turning us into a service economy)
https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/7617/economics/economic-growth-during-great-moderation/
In a way Ninfan highlights brilliantly the ignorance of brexiters, yearning to turn back the clock to a fantasy version of the world that can never exist again
& ironically its the manufacturers based in the former mill towns warning that they will be less competitive if we leave.
round of applause for ninny!
Do you earn more than, or less than, the median wage?
African or European?
and who loves Brexit and why?
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