I don’t want to keep the status quo. I want us to reform, to address the concerns which caused that divide.
This is the sensible, pragmatic approach and the one which a sensible government should have taken.
labour with a 2 point lead over tories in latest yougov
Tories were 3-4 points up a few months ago, will that cow brexies to be more loyal for fear of a corbyn victory or will they use it to wreck May plans?
Voting Intention: Conservatives 39%, Labour 39% (8-9 July)
Latest I could find..
The only question voted on was should the UK leave the EU, you’ve no idea what “the people” voted for beyond that
Yeah, he seems to pop up once in a while, with not a hint of irony accuse those who voted remain of being brain-dead, then promptly tell us that the voting slips actually had an entirely different question. He's best ignored really.
It's coming home, it's coming home, geo-political reality is coming home.
So FT is reporting that "May has abandoned plans for a tight new relationship between the UK's financial services industry and the EU".
Love it or loathe it, this is the sector that provides 11% of government tax receipts. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!
My last post seems to have disappeared into the forum black hole… so I apologise if this ends up being a double post… the article linked to is worth posting twice anyway…
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/10/opinion/boris-johnson-resignation-brexit.html
Blame "remainers" all you want for our current situation, but when you promise the undeliverable, and then blame others for not having a plan to deliver it, it's your responsibility.
Interesting study here :
basically says remains are a bunch of neurotic losers and leavers are, interestly, more conscientious.
Conscientiousness is the personality trait of being careful, or vigilant. Conscientiousness implies a desire to do a task well, and to take obligations to others seriously. Conscientious people tend to be efficient and organized as opposed to easy-going and disorderly.
Mooman, for.ypu to post that means you don't really understand the magnitude of what you've done.
I don't want to be an arsehole about any of this but it's a MASSIVE deal. Aside from potentially trashing the economy and Britain's status as a competent stable country, you've taken away a big part of my own personal identity. You've withdrawn me and my kids from our European community.
And we still cannot see any plausible positive reason for it. Remainers do not see ANY good reasons being put forward by leavers. I don't want to feel superior, but how can I give credit to leavers when all I see is misunderstandings, reactionary emotions and incompetence from government?
I feel depressed and fearful for all our futures every day because of this. We are being told by major industries that they will leave if they have to. But all we ever had from Leavers was vague promises. So please give me positive news. Tell me what's going to be good.
It's like someone burning your house down and then complaining you're in a bad mood all day 😉
Another question for mooman. Why do you think we care so much that we lost?
and leavers are, interestly, more conscientious.
Conscientiousness is the personality trait of being careful, or vigilant. Conscientiousness implies a desire to do a task well, and to take obligations to others seriously. Conscientious people tend to be efficient and organized as opposed to easy-going and disorderly.
Glad I didn't have any tea when I read that.... Would have covered the keyboard.
Glad your still looking for things online to reassure yourself there, is it any less bull shit than most of your links?
True, but it also shows that brexit voters are massively authoritarian and that remainers have more ability for deductive reasoning.
I would rather be a little neurotic and able to think well than be a conscientious authoritarian. Which feels like a bit of an oxymoron
Not entirely surprising neuroticism has been strongly linked to higher intelligence
Yeah it also said the leave voters aren't very smart, which might explain why they voted for brexit & trusted Boris Johnson & Farage 😀
When compared to Leave voters, Remain voters had higher levels of numerical risk literacy, were more likely to engage in analytical System 2 thinking, and tended to perform better in deductive reasoning tasks.
It's ok remoaners our smug superiority remainers intact
Conscientiousness is the personality trait of being careful, or vigilant. Conscientiousness implies a desire to do a task well, and to take obligations to others seriously. Conscientious people tend to be efficient and organized as opposed to easy-going and disorderly.
Let us all take a moment to just bask in the conscientiousness of Boris Johnson… go on… soak it all in…
Boris is very conscientious....... About himself. No one else mind
I'm in a bus being driven off a cliff that's approaching at an ever increasing speed.
I think I've got every right to be a bit 'neurotic'
(Neurosis: chronic distress with the absence of delusions)
Shame this is in a US newspaper and not plastered all over the front pages in the UK:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/10/opinion/boris-johnson-resignation-brexit.html
Shame this is in a US newspaper and not plastered all over the front pages in the UK:
It's probably behind the Times paywall, as that's who she writes for normally.
Conscientiousness is the personality trait of being careful, or vigilant. Conscientiousness implies a desire to do a task well, and to take obligations to others seriously. Conscientious people tend to be efficient and organized as opposed to easy-going and disorderly.
Whoever wrote this definition clearly had BoJo and David Davis in mind.
I mean obviously putting those two in charge was a remainer plot. The real talent was always err...
....
....
Liam Fox
It’s like someone burning your house down and then complaining you’re in a bad mood all day
I've come to dislike analogies, they are often used as a misleading way of avoiding thinking about the real issue under discussion. But this is a really good one.
Talking of Fox, why hasn't he resigned yet? Any theories?
Cowardice
And we still cannot see any plausible positive reason for it.
This.
There's plenty of propaganda and rhetoric, sure. We're "taking back control" (of something we already have control of, and achieving it by, uh, relinquishing any control we had in in Europe), regaining sovereignty (which we never lost) and we'll be able to "make our own laws" (which we already do). We can tighten immigration laws (which we already could and chose not to) and can have blue passports (which we can anyway, and also whoopdy ****ing doo). Erm, something about bananas?
Brexit is an idea, an emotion. We want to be free, like Mel Gibson in Braveheart. But there's no tangible, practical reason for it beyond that emotion, other than a few very rich people wanting to be even richer and to hell with everyone else. The Express readers and the bottom half of the Internet have been duped.
A pretty spot on summary Cougar.
Yet, when nothing is delivered and the country is in a mess. It will be the fault of the people who didn't vote for it.
Any one know if there is any substance to the rumour that Boris has got personal financial issues (a comment on a German newspaper website)?
We want to be free, like Mel Gibson in Braveheart.
Yes. In that movie and in countless others, they were fighting against oppression and subjugation, which is laudable. But parts of the UK have transferred that concept to the EU, but it's really not like that.
The EU is for the benefit of all its members, in all sorts of areas. That's why they have stuff like air quality legislation and fire safety regs. That stuff costs big businesses money, but the EU makes them do it because it benefits everyone, down to the very poorest. Freedom of movement enables people to get jobs where there's work and crucially for me it enables people to broaden their horizons if they want to. The single market makes business co-operation easier and enables EU companies to compete with US by giving economies of scale. It slashes the amount of red tape involved in business cooperation.
Of course it ****s up from time to time, everyone does. But overall it's well worth it for the benefits. We've evolved the modern UK as a key part of the modern Europe. Trying to unpick all that in a couple of years is going to be an absolute shit show. We're having to do a mountain of work and spend a shitload of money to reproduce everything the EU does, that we've already contributed to. And it's not even to stay still - we'll be going backwards anyway.
'Freedom' is a poorly defined concept anyway. I'm free in that I'm not living under an oppressive regime, but I'm not free to do absolutely anything I want. I can't build an extension on the side of my house for example because there's a sewer easement. We live under loads of rules, but they exist for the betterment of society as a whole. And it's the same for the EU. Those rules that the EU makes are (or are intended to be) for the benefit of everyone.
AND on top of all that - let's not forget that we were involved in making those rules. We had democratic representation - the EU is a democratic institution. That's why this us vs them stuff is such rubbish. We ARE the EU. There is no 'them'. There are Brits there, sitting alongside the Poles and the Belgians, making the rules. You voted for them, or at least you should have.
All of the reps that we buy from say that it's dire out there. Whole rows of shops gone in 6 months.
The shops that are left, are scared to buy . Everyone is scared of tax and mortgage rises.
Uncertainty kills confidence. Once confidence is gone we are ****ed.
**** every single **** that voted to leave.
Just reading a précis of the proposed Brexit plan on the Beeb site.
According to the government the plan:
<p class="story-body__list-item">Gives the UK an independent trade policy, with the ability to set its own non-EU tariffs and to reach separate trade deals</p>
<p class="story-body__list-item">Ends the role of the ECJ in UK affairs</p>
<p class="story-body__list-item">Ends annual payments to the EU budget with "appropriate contributions for joint action in specific areas"</p>
Appropriate contributions? I wonder what they will all add up to?
Talking of Fox, why hasn’t he resigned yet? Any theories?
Raab on Today this morning; anyone else hear him fail to commit to negotiating the deal this document sets out.
"It's your intention to push this paper through?" (having previously pushed the point that it's one that the two leading brexiteers felt the need to resign over)
"It's not my intention, it's the government's intention which i support"
I think it's a clever choice by May, forcing them to get into line or leave one by one.
I don't blame the leave voters, am fairly sure my wife was one, I blame a system that allows voters to vote on something so complex, but ALSO allows politicians and the media to propogate massive untruths, or at the very least uses hypothetical conjecture as the basis for concrete argument.
Why is it so difficult to prevent politicians bullshitting? Can political debate not at least borrow some principles from courts of law? Should freedom of speech really extend to allowing damaging untruths or half-truths to become fact?
For what it's worth, my otherwise wonderful, multi-cultural and tolerant wife voted Leave (probably, she won't admit it outright) because she believed it would cut immigration and mean less overcrowded hospitals and classrooms. The logic that the government could easily solve both problems if it really wanted fell on deaf ears (she doesn't believe in the magic money tree either, even when I asked how many schools the DUP bung alone might have built...).
Needless to say we pretty much have to avoid talking politics in the house now...
Why is it so difficult to prevent politicians bullshitting? Can political debate not at least borrow some principles from courts of law? Should freedom of speech really extend to allowing damaging untruths or half-truths to become fact?
Given how the Brexiteers on the radio at the weekend were still promising cash for the NHS without admitting how much Brexit was costing - and they were allowed to get away with it it's not going to stop.
The rise of the Alternative Fact/Enough of Experts means that even a proven lie is just ignored as somebodies spin on it
I think it’s a clever choice by May, forcing them to get into line or leave one by one.
Suffering the death of a thousand papercuts instead of getting it over and done with, yeah genius.
It still amazes me that the incompetent litany or errors by the moronic May and Cameron before her are somehow portrayed as a cunning machiavellian plan.
she believed it would mean less overcrowded hospitals and classrooms.
Dunno about classrooms, but as a percentage there are more migrants working in the NHS than using it. Lower net immigration = fewer hospital staff per patient = more overcrowded hospitals. She's (probably) voted for the opposite of what she wants.
Brexit is an idea, an emotion. We want to be free, like Mel Gibson in Braveheart. But there’s no tangible, practical reason for it beyond that emotion, other than a few very rich people wanting to be even richer and to hell with everyone else. The Express readers and the bottom half of the Internet have been duped.
By giving away their rights.
Immigration will continue from countries outside the EU, whose citizens along with ours will have less rights than EU citizens...part of the brexit ideal.
Some atlanticist's such as Fox wanting to sign a quick and very one sided trade deal to become a vassal 51st state. Another part of the Brexit ideal.
The most offensive thing has been listening to these C**ts talking about ending free movement, and no one, particularly in the media pointing out it ends our free movement too. Them taking away that from me is unforgivable.
I'm entering politics, and those who think this is a total sh*t show should do so to, because even after Brexit, it won't be over by a very long chalk.
Front page headline on the Daily Mail today:
"BREXIT: NOW IT'S GUERILLA WAR"
You'd have thought that given their circulation, they'd have been able to afford a spell checker. (It's "guerrilla".)
A pretty succinct and accurate piece on our own Pound Shop Trump from the New York Times
Boris Johnson has ruined Britain
It's a great piece, but must we post it quite so many times in this thread?
Seeing as Brexit is the single most cyclical subject in the history of the world, ever, it seemed perfectly apt, yes. 😉
From:
In some manufactured goods sectors where more complex products have the potential to pose a higher risk to consumers, patients or environmental safety, a greater level of regulatory control is applied. The European Medicines Agency (EMA), the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA) and the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) facilitate part of these regulatory frameworks. In line with the UK’s objective of ensuring that products only go through one approval mechanism to
access both markets, the UK is seeking participation in these EU agencies, as an active participant, albeit without voting rights, which would involve making an appropriate financial contribution. The UK would want to secure access to relevant IT systems, ensuring the timely transfer of data between UK and EU authorities
So to be part of these systems (that we currently are) since this is deemed to be a good idea, the country will have to pay, but will have no influence or voting rights. Yeh! - go us.....
Yay, now we’re really taking back control!
Molgrips - was that supposed to be satirical of Remainers being a bunch of delicate Snowflakes?
particularly in the media pointing out it ends our free movement too.
Only for the plebs. For the Brexit elite there are always options. Get Putin to pay for a Malta passport or get your French citizenship sorted out fast.
waaait a minute wasnt mooman just being all snowflakey about us remoaners being mean to the poor brexies?
anyway
I see May is fluffing trump for a trade deal, ironic as TTIP was as used (falsely) by leave voters as a reason for brexit 🙂
how desperate we have become!
i hope the EU tells May to F off . Barnier always said the UK could not cherry pick the services it wanted .
Unless of course they put a high price on those services .
and maybe the Leavers could tell us what their plan is ?
A lot easier to moan at remainers instead ..............
Come on Turner guy and Mooman , we are waiting !