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mike - similar size to Finland, Sweden, Norway, a bit smaller than the Netherlands, IIRC. Plenty of independent countries around that size - indeed I believe units of 5 - 10 million are as big as you can get a have proper representative government.
IN the EU iScotland would have influence and any power the EU has is given to them / shared with them and the sovereignty resides with the scottish people
Basically iScotland in the EU would not have tory austerity forced upon it
This is very reminiscent of the kind of airy statements the brexies were making before the EU referendum. “It’ll be fine, they’ll give us what we want”. How much influence, in a union where you’re about 1% of the population and (if you’re in the Euro) fiscal policy is set for 27 other countries (Netherlands are about 3x bigger than Scotland btw)? Most analysts seem to think that, had you gone independent, you’d have had something that made Tory austerity look like a picnic! And it’s not true to say that Scotland sends more money to London than it gets back therefore quids in; an iScotland would need to spend on those reserved matters that the U.K. government currently handles. I think the parallels are striking; at the end of the day both movements are about appealing to the notion that us, here are better off without them, over there. This feels wrong to me and so I’ll find arguments against it, TJ you obviously like it so you’ll do the opposite. Like most political arguments, it’s about justifying your gut instincts!
Its not about justi8fying gut instinct to me. Its about having the chance to have a progressive government..
Yes we would have little but some influence in Europe because of the way the european parliament works. Also EU membership is much less restrictive than UK. iScotland would have control of taxation for example and also full control of its national resources and would not have to pay punative charges to acccess the national grid for our electricty generation.
IMO there are two sorts of scots nationalists. Ideological ones who want independence no matter the cost and pragmatic ones like me who have no ideological attachment to an independent Scotland but see it as an opportunity to have a greener more progressive government - ie no tory governments ever again
And it is true that there is more money raised in scotland than is spent here. a lot of tax raised in scotland is reported in England and thus does not appear on the scottish side of the books
This makes the thread drift a long way tho lets leave it until we have another vote
No discussion on the massive amount of “really? are you sure?” from her majesty’s peers?
It's almost as if the Brexiters 'plans' are in a complete shambles.😂😂😂
Meanwhile outside my local train station tonight the PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN !!
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Scotland is only an issue due to history, with only 5 1/2 Million people it’s a very small place similar to Yorkshire.
Remember the RoI, population c4.7M and a higher GDP per capita than the UK.
But yes getting off track, Brexit does nothing to unite the union, just as the English response to the Easter rising did nothing to pacify the separatists.
I like the Brexitometer.
I think the Mash has pretty much nailed it as regards the Lords: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/house-of-lords-only-senile-old-bastards-in-country-who-dont-back-brexit-20180509164445
Isn’t it a case that even the head bangers have realised the final result will be a shambles so have gone off to lick their wounds while the remainers have no need to tell each other ‘I told you so’?
Remember the RoI, population c4.7M and a higher GDP per capita than the UK.
But yes getting off track, Brexit does nothing to unite the union, just as the English response to the Easter rising did nothing to pacify the separatists.
And the Irish based their entire economy on attracting foreign companies through ultra low tax incentives - something that Scotland would never be able to stomach, absorb economically or be outright stupid enough to attempt in the first place.
Ireland is also heading for the cliffs again, considering how the world is headed towards increased levels of protectionism and a showdown between the US and EU over Iran.
Suggesting Ireland as a beacon of economic good practice, is actually exactly what Brexies would argue in favour of as well....
Remember the RoI, population c4.7M and a higher GDP per capita than the UK.
Yes, context is everything, if you want influence in a nation of 65million then 5 million people is a very small number, based on a fluctuating border Scotland is defined as a nation but realistically it's still a historic distinction, you can have the influence on the rUK that the size of your vote gives you.
What is the actual upshot of the Lords votes?
Do the House of Commons say that they don’t like it and tell the lords to stuff it?
I know that I should know how my government works but until recently I was happy to leave them to it but it’s very personal now.
ZippyK - roughly. But it means the commons have to vote again and tends to embolden rebels in the commons.
I note with interest that it is Northeast MPs that have broken ranks with Corbyn and asked for a second referendum - exactly the people the Brexies have been saying couldn’t support staying in the EU because they’d get voted out. Interesting.
The commons can overrule/ignore the Lords but basically it looks bad and reduces credibility.
The commons now get to to vote on on these Lords amendments.
With the government in dissarary over their customs union plans, theres a risk that the Tory unity won't hold for the votes.
With Corbyn absolutely crushing May today with some pretty simple CU plan questions (his best pmqs this year & May looking more desperate than ever). Maybe labour might start working to block the brexishambles
The commons can send it back to the Lords (up to 3 times I think?) demanding they rethink.
However, if that happened, the time scale is to short to go through the process, so the commons would be forced to accept the amendment.
Bwhahahah.
**** democracy, glad to see the adults in the lords in charge for once anyway. Bring on the benevolent dictatorship and let the proles learn their place again.
**** democracy, glad to see the adults in the lords in charge for once anyway. Bring on the benevolent dictatorship and let the proles learn their place again.
Given what asking the people did for the country your idea may have some merit. Not fully convinced yet, but getting there...
Lords is basically advisory. Commons can use the Parliament Act to force it’s will. Oh hang on. Advisory you say?
What’s the difference between a customs partnership and a customs union?
The words 'partnership' and 'union'.
An interesting argument put forward by Andrew Rawnsley that May knows that theres no way she can get a vote to exit the customs union through parliament. The numbers just don't add up. With Nicky Morgan, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke et al making it known theres no way they'll vote for it. So any commons vote on the subject means a defeat
So she's ploughing on regardless, to shut the noisy headbangers up (Boris, Rees-Mogg IDS etc) so that when (not 'if') the bill is defeated in the commons, she can say "oh well... I tried.... but the numbers just didn't add up. What a shame, eh?"
The lords know full well the numbers don't add up, so they're teeing up amendments so that a parliamentary majority can knock them down. Still a disaster (no voting rights in the EU), but essentially 'as you were'.
Whats needed now is for Corbyn to use his grey matter (difficult, I know), reject his inherent anti-EU knee-jerk, and advocate Labour supporting single market membership. Then this whole shitstorm is dead in the water.
Can you imagine the wailing that would induce in the Daily Heil, Boris and chums? What a joy to watch that would be, as the government simultaneously imploded
Brexiters in full on panic mode, now want to extend transition as they still can't figure out how to make it all work.
https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/994477709211459585?s=19
Yeah, it seems to be dawning on even the densest, flag-waving ****-wit that their grand project/pipe-dream is a totally unworkable shambles, so they're looking to get their excuses in early, and shuffling off
Brexit is a mess. Even its cheerleaders will abandon it
and with Trump threatening big sanctions on anyone working with Iran , and the EU determined to stick with the agreement , the UK is stuck in the middle .
wheres THM to remind us the grown-ups will fix it all
even the grown ups have given up!
The sensible thing would be for the UK to hold rank with the EU on this, which is what they seem to be doing so far.
Even if we did follow the USA on Iran, I think even the most frothy mouthed brexiters are beginning to realise is won't win us any grace with the trump administration.
Mr Hannan, writing on ConservativeHome, said he was often asked, "not working out the way you thought, is it?" He said: "To be fair, they've got a point." He went on: "I had assumed that, by now, we'd have reached a broad national consensus around a moderate form of withdrawal that recognised the narrowness of the result."
He backed being in the European Free Trade Association (Efta) - participation in the single market of 500 million people, but without the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice.
Yes, that’s Daniel Hannan. In the Eveny Stannit (to misquote Eric and Ernie)
Discuss
Thanks Daniel. So basically, just getting rid of the ECJ. Couldn't we just have done that by ignoring its rulings like everyone else does?
Discuss?
the truth is out there, it's in 40ft high letters all over the place, it's really hard to miss and being charged with delivering any of it will result in a massive screw up. At least a lot of the leave leaders are spineless...
I may disagree with Hannan, but at least he has more brain cells than mills (Blackadder III reference)
It's interesting that in terms of volume and vitorial that the Brexit press has not really reacted that aggressively to the Lords votes.
If you remove the Rees Mogg John redwoods from the press the kick back has been virtually zero- so has there been a moment of " this is really not a good idea" among the swivel eyed?
Time for Labour MPs, members, voters, to remove the obvious block on us keeping a close EEA type relationship with our neighbours…
It's been fairly consistent over the last few days from these two
I don't disagree that the Lords might be in need of some sort of reform, (but this is hardly the time or the place). I must admit I'm finding it funny that now they are actually doing some damage prevention, against the interest of thier traditional support base, that same base is calling for abolition because they don't like what's being said.
Dare I say that our democratic political infrastructure is actually bearing up in a time of chaos and performing as intended?
Maybe what brexit needs is a new brand image to revitalise support, maybe something like this...
Is it thirteen or fourteen bills on the trott the Lords have knocked back now? I've lost count...
The momentum on brexit has well and truly stopped still, and we're about to see reverse gear engaged.
We're well and truly into 'you couldn't make it up' territory when it was Dave, lest we forget, who stuffed the Lords with Tory Peers who are now gleefully revelling in telling Theresa to eff off. For this they are rewarded by being labelled as Traitors and Enemies of the People by the headbangers., but I suspect are being cheered on by the less unhinged majority of Tory MP's
Whats not being remarked upon as much, but is equally as significant, is the number of labour peers who are also as happily waving two fingers at Jezza and the labour leadership when being whipped (or attempting to be) to vote against remaining in the single market etc. I'm pretty certain the vast majority of Labour MP's (who are pretty much all remainers) will be willing them one in that too.
Its 14 amendments sent back now for a vote in the commons. Every single one of which is potentially rubbing out Theresa's precious, oh-so-important red lines. No wonder the Mail/Express/IDS/Redwood fruit-loops are so apoplectic
There's hope yet. God bless the unelected old duffers! Hurray for democracy!! 😀
Democracy is as democracy does. 🤩
Or
Brexit’s like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.
Well, they're small and brown, but I'm not sure I want to find out what they taste of where Brexit is concerned.
We’re well and truly into ‘you couldn’t make it up’ territory when it was Dave, lest we forget, who stuffed the Lords with Tory Peers who are now gleefully revelling in telling Theresa to eff off. For this they are rewarded by being labelled as Traitors and Enemies of the People by the headbangers., but I suspect are being cheered on by the less unhinged majority of Tory MP’s
Maybe this is what THM meant by the grown-ups coming up with a solution.
I presume another BoE downgrade in UK growth expectations isn't worth mentioning here… already so low before the downgrade that it's probably not newsworthy.
The Brexit cheerleaders have successfully moved the narrative on from "project fear" to "voters knew they were voting to damage our economy and standard of living" anyway.
Lords is basically advisory. Commons can use the Parliament Act to force it’s will. Oh hang on. Advisory you say?
The Commons can't use the Parliament act. There wasn't a Queens speech/opening of Parliament last year(or this year either) setting out what legislation the Government wants to pass into law.
No queens speech, no Parliament act.
Dare I say that our democratic political infrastructure is actually bearing up in a time of chaos and performing as intended?
It certainly seems to be heading that way, in part