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The SNP have the somewhat troublesome position of arguing that leaving this political and economic union, to which we’re a net contributor, will be a disaster whereas leaving that far older and deeper political and economic union, from which we’re a net recipient, will be fine. Excuse me if I’m a tad sceptical.
Hoping for a Lib Dem revival at the next GE!
Dont just vote lib, join them.
It doesn't cost much and you get a nice badge.
Airtragic -apart from the fact we are huge net contributor to the UK. taxes raised in Scotland are much larger than taxes spent in scotland if you include all the tax that is raised in scotland but reported in London.
Anyway - its not about SNP baaaaaad - its just making the point they are a pro EU party
The SNP have the somewhat troublesome position
As oppose to the others who want to remain in one and leave the other
One of the surprising things was how many people [ myself included] took differeing views on the two unions. To single out the SNP for this is rather unfair.
Indeed - the unionists / little englanders want to remain in the UK which is toxic to scotland and leave the EU which is a boon to scotland - I have heard the same people using diametrically opposite arguments for the two positions.
which is toxic to scotland
The majority of Scottish voters appear to disagree (there was a vote about it and everything if you remember 😉 )
The majority of Scottish voters appear to disagree (there was a vote about it and everything if you remember.
They voted to remain in the UK as part of the EU before the brexit fiasco.
If the UK was to leave the EU, dragging Scotland with it, that moves the goal posts somewhat. Doncha think?
At the risk of dragging this thread in an even more irrelevant direction a significant minority of SNP support wants out of both and for a significant number of people if they had to choose between UK and EU they would chose EU - even some people I know who campaigned for NO in the scots referendum have changed to supporting independence for Scotland 'cos they believe the EU is so important. So we have people moving in both directions - some YES voters voted YES in the scots referendum to get out of the EU believing the westminster line that a YES vote meant leaving the EU and some who voted NO have now changed to YES to stay in the EU.!
Its really nuanced and odd with different groups with different motivations and it seems the two groups going in different directions more of less cancel out
They voted to remain in the UK as part of the EU before the brexit fiasco.
If the UK was to leave the EU, dragging Scotland with it, that moves the goal posts somewhat. Doncha think?
No, because it was a known risk of voting to remain in the UK before the vote ("dragged out" as Alex called it at the time) as was the risk of being unable to continue existing EU membership under independence (see what Catalonia have been told about continued EU membership since).
You can't claim that the goal posts have been moved if you knew about the risk beforehand. The goal posts justification only appeared when they didn't get the result they expected/wanted
Nonsense, and you know it.
When the Scottish indie ref. Took place, the UK leaving the EU was just a concept designed by the Conservatives for fear of losing votes to UKIP.
Bad gamble that turned out to be as UKIP have since self destructed of thier own accord, just goes to show how poor the judgement of the Conservative Party is.
The EU I'm sure would have been happy to 'fast track' Scotland into the EU in the event Scotland left the UK, as they are already in the EU under the umbrella of the UK, it would be little more than a rubber stamp exercise.
Comparison to catalonia is also absurd, a better analogy for catalonia seperateing for Spain would be London declaring independence from England.
Nonsense, and you know it.
When the Scottish indie ref. Took place, the UK leaving the EU was just a concept designed by the Conservatives for fear of losing votes to UKIP.
"Today Britain sits at the margins of European influence, and if Scotland remains governed from London we face the prospect of an in/out referendum on whether to be part of the European Union at all. It is conceivable that unless we choose to change our circumstances this September we could be dragged out of the European Union against our will."
Alex Salmond, April 2014
The EU I’m sure would have been happy to ‘fast track’ Scotland into the EU in the event Scotland left the UK, as they are already in the EU under the umbrella of the UK, it would be little more than a rubber stamp exercise.
That isn't what the EU have said to Catalonia, is it?
Yes, yes, all very messy for Scotland.
Now… going back a thousand pages in this thread… before we vote to Leave the EU, can anyone sketch out a plan for how this will effect the border in Ireland, and the special status of NI EU citizens conferred on them by the Good Friday Agreement? To vote without that being even roughly known would be utterly reckless, and potentially very damaging.
That isn’t what the EU have said to Catalonia, is it?
Spain is an EU state. Pretty soon the UK won't be. The EU protects its memberstates' interests. It would never support a country breaking away from a member state. Despite what the propaganda will have you believe… it is a group of sovereign states. It would, however, probably welcome back a country breaking away from a state that has left the EU… I can't currently think of a reason for it not to… a shrinking state that has left the EU with a mess to clear up would have a real problem persuading the EU member states to protect its interests… well, depending on how much mess it makes, and how distant it had become by then, I suppose.
Still no solution to the NI border issue let alone before the vote. Its clear that the leavers in the tory party didn't even consider it.
They clearly didn't consider much at all.. .. If anything.
Wasn't boris Johnson on record saying he didn't really understand the Irish issue.. He's foreign secretary for gods sake, he's expected to have a firm grasp and understanding of our neighbours issues, it's literally his job, that's what he gets paid quite handsomely for.
Remember… it's "their" fault, not "our" fault, whenever any actual change has to occur because of "our" decision to change everything (although "nothing will really change" and "we'll keep the exact same benefits" etc)…
[img] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DaMNzXmWsAIsGWs?format=jpg&name=large [/img]
"plotting"
are those supposed to be links? 'cos for me there is nothing to see!
Images. I'm not linking to the Sun "story", but will fetch you a link for the second one…
I am not seeing images either dunno why
I see images, but videos are broken.
If only there was an sticky where we could report these teething issues with the new forum software (I hope there was a decent % held back for snagging)
Yep completely nothing at all going on there, I'm sure lots of people are currently "Plotting" to try and make things workable in uncertain times and avoid the UK as much as possible
Tracey Emin sends a message of love to Europe via St Pancras
oh dear it looks like the EU have just found a 12BN a year black hole in their budget , and it seems this is after they have taken our membership buy out payment too, and still come up short.
The annual EU budget is €145 bn (2015 figures) – a large sum in absolute terms, but only about 1% of the wealth generated by EU economies every year. The budget is subject to limits established by the multiannual financial framework.
Numbers should always be in context 12bn < 0.1% of the wealth generated by the EU economies every year.
It's an issue but not an insurmountable one
oh dear it looks like the EU have just found a 12BN a year black hole in their budget
Presumably they bought the mag every time that ducking pop up appeared
Just got my tax code notice for this year.
There is handy breakdown of where last years was spent - greedy bastard EU took a whole 0.7%!!!!!
I'll be glad when I get that back.
1.5bn ready to be spent preparing for brexit. you could get 57,000 nurses or 50,000 primary school teachers for that.
( from the 'eye )
oh dear it looks like the EU have just found a 12BN a year black hole in their budget
Whereas we have a £61.8bn hole in ours.
(source: https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_national_deficit_analysis)
When you know you 100% have the full support and the will of the people on your side...
Meanwhile, pro-Brexit demonstrators also turned up at the launch, and Conservative MP Nadine Dorries argued there was no public appetite for a second referendum.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43774200
You know fan of democracy and referendums one minute, shit scared of them the next.
A powerful cross-party group of MPs is to force a vote on a customs union next week in the House of Commons.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43821737
Please please let the great unwashed and the swivel eyed have their Brexit , the great unwashed need to suffer the low regulation economy that the swivel eyed folk desire. Just sit back and let them get on.
We in the middle shall prosper or maintain our wealth and security.
Just give me one generation of youth and I will transform the world - Vladimir Lenin. This shit fest will correct itself as karma is a mighty powerful thing.
We in the middle shall prosper or maintain our wealth and security.
Gald your comfortable, many are not and the set back to the nation will screw another generation.
I agree mikewsmith lots of innocent folks will suffer, however " useful innocents" have a big part to to play in sorting this
I don't agree with that line of thought, causing unesesary damage to prove a point isn't constructive.
I think the remainers should graciously, logicaly and tentatively turn this whole sorry mess around, without being callous and selfish (to do otherwise would make us just as bad as the willfully ignorant brexiters) , and that seems to be what's beginning to happen now.
I agree mikewsmith lots of innocent folks will suffer, however
Would you agree if you were going to seriously lose out?
This Brexit thing has changed my view, I am a socialist and always will be, however I have had my faith in the common sense of the working class (poor) has been challenged. The sheer lack of understanding and the willingness of people to believe the utter shite fed to them by the swivel eyed has changed me.
As I have said before I am from the North East started work at 16 in 1979 and witnessed first hand what the swivel eyed did to my family's communities from South Shields to Ashington and beyond. So when these "working poor" vote to support the horrible bastards that want to turn them into unregulated cheap labour with no rights I ****ing despair.
These are not the people who stood up for their rights in the mines, shipyards and mills in the 70s and 80s they are something new and they are as thick as pig shit, sorry if this is unpleasant buts it's true unlike the crap that is peddled in the Daily Mail.
Rant over
The daily express has just run the same story, and the comments are a frothing mess of..... Interestingly sexism today, I guess they got bored of xenophobia and racism.
Ive said t before and I shall say it again why did they ever let women into politics to date they have screwed everything up and are constantly arguing and when it come to carrying grudges well there is nothing down for anyone, they are as useless as the House of Lords
I am not prepared to graft on behalf of these people to sort out the crap they have voted for, I admire anyone who is prepared to do so.
Can't say I have done anything exceptional to improve the well being of many but I have created a few well paid jobs., including giving a pizza delivery bloke, a scaffolder, two graduates, an unemployed person and a bar person (also an immigrant) the opportunity to work in a tech business and at least double their incomes + improve their quality of life exponentially.
Long story short I am not some closet raging capatilist swivel eyed individual.
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"Oldmanmtb
So when these “working poor” vote to support the horrible bastards that want to turn them into unregulated cheap labour with no rights I **** despair."
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'twas ever thus, the only way right wing parties can ever get into power is by convincing the people they plan to screw over to vote for them. Brexit's by no means a development here.
Don't blame to people who believed the lies they were told, blame the people telling the lies.
I’ve been thinking about this and I reckon history will label this whole Brexit as the ‘Big Lie’.
Very interesting to hear Lord Patten thou he really does seem annoyed at his own party and I’m really not a great Tory lover he does seem to be exhibiting the uncommon sense you need as opposed to themuppets who have jumped on the bandwagon for their own glory and power.
The closest pro-Brexit ministers have come to a trade deal is the checkout at Waitrose
When push comes to shove the so called free trading Brexiters turn out to be jingoistic protectionists...The global Britain touted by some - as though we had not been global for centuries - is not only hypocritical, it is also political and economic nonsense. One problem is that the Ministers who talk about these fictitious trade deals have never negotiated one.