Espressotrackworld

@DrJ Is that four pods then?

Yes 🙁

Never actually googled what they are before, but ESE sounds like a fairly crap halfway-house solution tbh!

Not really. The coffee is better than Nespresso IMO, and the faff factor is similar. I actually started using them in a handpresso type thing which kind of made sense in reducing mess outside.

. Fairly easy to justify though if it stops you buying coffee out (which I never do now unless on holiday!)

mmm saw some around that price, but still not a justifiable upgrade from the Barista Pro. I did consider putting a second machine in my shed where I work most of the time. But that wouldn't end well!

As above I've pretty much ruined any chance of enjoying a shot outside of my own kitchen. 2nd hand Europiccola combined with a Eureka Mignon Crono (2020 version) is my budget setup which has the potential to make incredible little shots. I say potential as the margin for error is small and even after 1k+ shots pulled I still make silly mistakes.

I had a Breville/Sage Barista Express since they first came out. Must be over twelve years ago.
In that time it needed O rings replacing a couple of times. Cost $2 and look it up on the tube.
I get beans from our restaurant supplier, so they're always consistent & I seldom need to adjust my method now.
2 years ago I replaced it with the Dual boiler & grinder combo. Added a bottomless filter & a nice, heavy tamper. Now I can have a flat white made before my toast has popped up.

Yeah - I don't know whether I agree with the "home espresso is a hobby" thing. Mine took a few months (and one change of equipment) before I was making better coffee than most (very decent)independent coffee shops. Haven't changed it since then.

My advice would be to buy yourself a cheap "proof of concept" setup to have a bit of a go with - that will give you an indication of whether its going to be something that you can be bothered with. It will also give you a better understanding of what's important (in general, but also to you specifically) which you can then target and improve.

some basic guidance/advice is:

As long as the machine itself meets the basic standard (stable pressure and temp), it's largely irrelevant. Sage Bambino is a good call. If you want to steam milk, then machine choice is more important.

Grinder is much (much) more important. Again, the Sage/Breville is about as budget as you can go and get something that can grind fine enough. Even then, this will be what holds your coffee back - but is a good place to start. All this talk of dialing-in the beans being a faff fairly soon disappears. I switch beans about every week, and I just tweak the dial back a blonde-hair before pulling the first shot - it's usually good enough, but maybe a half-hair either way on the second shot and it's bob-on. As the beans age I might tweak it once more - but thats it.

You need scales. Seems knobby, but you need a set of scales to measure your output: good espresso is all about the ratio of grinds-in to espresso-out. You just want some that are capable to 0.1g and that have a timer on also - as this'll help you dial-in your beans.

time: 11.2 seconds

That's way too quick. Whatever input/output you are using, you want to look at hitting that output in 25-30ish seconds. If you are getting your desired weight-out/volume after 11 seconds, you are grinding way too coarse.

A good rule of thumb is 2:1. Twice as much output vs grind "dose". I typically use 22g in and 44g out, but vary that slightly depending on the beans. But it's a good quide. A standard "double" is 18g in and about 36g. Your basket will be marked for the weight of grinds you are supposed to use.

When you are starting-out, "puck prep" is very important. If the grinds in your portafilter are clumpy, or not evenly distributed, you'll get "squirters" or "channels" in your puck. This means that most/all the water travels via the path of least resistance in your puck, making your coffee taste like simultaneously weak/burned piss. This is easy to fix - just but a cheap "WDT tool" from the internet and stir the grinds in the portafilter before you tamp. Seriously, makes a huge difference starting out, as it means that your shot time/volume (see above) is consistent - allowing you then just to adjust the grind size. If you don't touch the grind size, and one shot pulls at 40 seconds, and the other at 15...... it's your puck prep. Ones with thinner needles work best - avoid the ones with loops on the end of the wires. You can use a straightened paper-clip if you want a proof-of-concept.

So yeah - once you get set-up, it's not a burden at all: grinding, puck prep and pulling a shot takes me roughly a minute an a half. Steaming the milk about another minute.

Hopefully not too ****y? I fear I may have lost people with the "puck prep" bit, but honestly, it makes a huge difference with consistency, which in turn makes everything else easier. Can't remember the last time I pulled a dud.

Edit (forgot one): If you are using a grinder with a hopper - keep the hopper FULL, particularly if your grinder is timer-based: ie: your dose of ground coffee depends on how long it's pre-set to run for. Anything approaching half-empty will likely under-dose you. If you are seeing sloppy-pucks, then it's probably this. Also, if the hopper is so empty that the beans are pinging-up back into the hopper, the grind size within the puck will be really inconsistent. Both of these things will explain why your shot time is not consistent, even though you haven't changed the grind size between shots.

Some good advice from Batfink but the final para creates a variable. It's generally accepted that single dosing by weighing the beans for each shot directly from a sealed container will improve consistency. If you half fill the hopper the beans beans at the top are being exposed to air for longer periods before grinding.

Lots of good advice here that I don't need to add to. I've recently given one of my old repaired Gaggia Classics (I'm known as a handyman and people just give me their old broken machines when they "upgrade" to a Sage) to my daughter.
For Christmas they asked for a grinder, and, to prove they are now real converts, the absolute indispensable essential...

...a knock out box.

It’s generally accepted that single dosing by weighing the beans for each shot directly from a sealed container will improve consistency

agreed in theory, but given the hopper size on something like the sage smart grinder, I wouldn’t think it makes that much difference in-the-cup at this point. Unless the op is making 1 shot every 3 days.

I went from a refurbed mazzer super jolly, to a niche zero, and would encourage everyone to buy a single dose grinder (once they have determined that they are interested in making their own coffee).

I put a grind timer into my super jolly, and the weight of grounds varied massively depending on how many beans were in the hopper.

Avoid Bean to Cup in my opinion. They’re a nightmare to clean, taste burnt, and you can’t properly control the grind.

Used some crap b2c then have you ?

Jura e8 super auto here upgraded from a delonghi magnifica -more than happy with the Jura.

Nearly bought a manual but like spooky I didn't want a fight for my coffee every morning.

I fell down the rabbit hole 6 months ago. I fancied learning how to make proper espresso and milk based stuff. We’d previously had a Delonghi bean to cup that I thought was ok.

Rather than go ‘cheap’ I thought to buy good stuff with easy resale if it wasn’t for me. So now we have a Gaggia Classic pro modded to 9bar, a Niche Zero grinder and all the usual bit, Motta tamp tool, needle tool, scales etc.

I’ve realised now how bad the bean to cup was for flavour! However, as I’m out the house sharpish in the morning weekdays and don’t need milk based drinks, I tend to use the Niche to grind for the Aeropress and take an Americano or whatever and save the Espresso for the weekend when I have a bit more time to savour it. No hassle at all and good coffee ready to go in not much longer than people take to make a cup of instant.

one thing i have observed of late is that many cafes could do to get a super auto and at least have a consistant coffee..

recently had some awful coffee from a really high end commercial machine - using quality beans. At a satelite store of a very good coffee shop...... it honestly tasted like nescafe..... if i hadnt seen her making it id have sworn it was nescafe.

the other one ive noticed more and more is "coffee machine operators" fill the milk jug - stick it under the wand - set it down and walk off doing other things ...... not to be the **** but i do explain im happy to pay for the milky coffee i ordered but please don't put the milk in the coffee just leave it black.

Why chance stale beans Batfink. It only takes a few seconds to open a sealed container so seems odd not to make it part of the routine. I can single dose using the manual override on my Eureka Mignon, closing the gate stops 'popcorning'. There's really no need for everyone to buy a Niche for more than double the price.

Your Mazzer is a budget commercial grinder engineered for a commercial setting.

I've gone completely the other way, and now one of my treats is that next door to where I buy the bread for the week is a nice little cafe that does more than passable espresso. As I'm up early on a Sat, i get to sit in a nice cafe that's largely empty and free of idiots, some nice chitty-chat with the pretty barista, and watch the world wake up.

* What’s a good starter machine (bearing in mind the above mentioned Hoffman rabbit hole is bad for things like needing a PID machine…)?

Late to the party here, but another vote for Sage, in my case the Barista bean-to-cup machine. Although it's all-in-one, there's a frankly surprising amount of adjustability in there, from the volume and fineness of the grind, to the precise water temperature, amount of water, etc. Once you've got it set up just how you like, it makes the exact same espresso time after time. And the steam wand is excellent.

Only slight concern is mine has developed a small leak from the base on one side, which suggests it needs a service; but it's worth it in my books

I appreciate everyone is different, but once you have a routine, making espresso (rather than just pushing a button on a machine) isn't that difficult. If it was, I wouldn't be able to do it first thing in the morning before I've had coffee.

I went full manual: Rok lever machine, and later the Rok manual grinder. Yes, I have to boil the kettle, weigh beans, grind, preheat portafilter, dose and tamp, pull shot, knock out puck, rinse portafilter, wipe shower screen, but I could do it in my sleep now, and sometimes I think I do. Worth it for decent coffee but YMMV.

In total contradiction to everyone else on here...

Cheap Beko machine (£85) and Lavazza Rosso pre-ground. Works lovely.

Cheap Beko machine (£85) and Lavazza Rosso pre-ground. Works lovely.

+1 for the puck prep thing mentioned above.  It adds a few seconds to the process and really does help the consistency.  My 'distribution tool' is just half a dozen fine needles, actually intended for cleaning 3D printers, taped onto an old wine cork.

this kind of thing - Juliyeh 20 Pcs Nozzle Cleaning Needles Stainless Steel Nozzle Cleaning Tool 3D Printer Clean Accessories for 3D Printer Nozzle, Black : Amazon.co.uk: Business, Industry & Science

Otherwise using a cheap DeLonghi manual machine (EC330 Icona I think) along with a somewhat extravagant Eureka Mignon Silenzio for grinding as the previous Krups cheap grinder was hopeless for Espresso and the hand grinder was just getting annoying.

Probably worth adding that once you get the hang of making a decent coffee you will have completely ruined the experience of drinking a coffee from a cafe 90% of the time!

So true.

Except that the very best cafes make a coffee much better than I can and now I really appreciate them.

The rest of them - bleurch - drink tea (which is surprisingly decent in Starbucks).

In total contradiction to everyone else on here…

Same here, but with a Swan one that has a milk reservoir on the side and makes a cappuccino at the touch of a button.
Oh and Aldi pre-ground coffee. Either the Espresso or French blend. Neither are as fine as a proper espresso grind but I like the coffee it makes and that makes me happy.

Got a Gaggia Classic about a year ago and started off the hard way with pre-ground coffee. It so difficult to get consistently good coffee when someone else is grinding it.

Once I got my own grinder (Sage Smart Pro) its so much faster, and consistent. Usually takes a couple of cups to get the grind/time bang on when you try a new coffee variety. But after that its a doddle. I just keep a notebook with the grind/weight that I've settled on for past coffees to refer to. Having a single dose timer built into the grinder is brilliant.

We have a £1600 bean-to-cup machine at work, and I can make a much better espresso at home.

Idly looking at machines on the internets - is 15 min warm up time typical?

Lavazza Rosso for weekday mornings might not be the worst idea ever 🤔

Idly looking at machines on the internets – is 15 min warm up time typical?

Thats on the faster side - but it’s really variable depending on the machine. Most of the warm-up time in traditional machines is about getting the grouphead (which contain a lot of thermal mass by design) up to temp. But some machines have thermocoil instead, which don’t then require all that thermal mass.

Sage Bambino... 3 seconds from cold!

Although I do then fire some water through to warm up the group head and portafilter.
Still, it's ready to go sooner than my old Nespresso machine.

As mentioned before, I'm glad I threw most of the budget at the grinde; the Niche Zero is just ace to use. Still occasionally use the old Q1 hand grinder for Aeropress use as its grinds hopper fits the AP perfectly👍

Question for all the Sage (and other brand) owners: what do you use for descaling? And what's the procedure?

Question for all the Sage (and other brand) owners: what do you use for descaling? And what’s the procedure?

Descaling I use liquid descaler in the water tank and run it through the system. Basically following the Sage instructions.

As for cleaning, again just follow the instructions. They supply a couple of tablets with it and after I used those I bought some cafiza powder (same stuff but in powder not tablet form and way way cheaper).

My Sage Bambino notifies you with flashing lights when either of the above need doing

I backflush my Gaggia weekly with some Cafiza and descale monthly with liquid as even though I filter our water it’s as hard as brick ends.

@kingofhtefr - Technically you risk leaving more retained coffee in the grinder overnight, which then exchanges with what you use the next day. Whether that matters to you in reality is another matter! 🤔

Most single dose grinders minimise the retained coffee volume, wipers/augers/grind path. So super easy to swap bean types and between say espresso/filter with more consistent results.

It is a bit of a rabbit hole…

not actually done it yet so I should probably look into that soon!

Same! The cleaning tablets are fine, and the process is dead easy, but I've not got to descaling yet

Most single dose grinders minimise the retained coffee volume, wipers/augers/grind path. So super easy to swap bean types and between say espresso/filter with more consistent results.

Cleaning out your grinder is one more use for your cheap Aldi compressor 🙂

For descaling the Sage i use these sachets and run through a couple of fills of clean water. They also have a water filter for the reservoir.

I do this only a bit more frequently than i do my fork lowers

https://www.hartsofstur.com/sage-the-descaler-bes007uk.html

I got an ESE pod specific machine from illy. Very happy with the convenience/quality ratio.
Only downside is having to get pods online rather than from shop. Plenty to choose from though

Question for all the Sage (and other brand) owners: what do you use for descaling? And what’s the procedure?

Luckily, the water is really great quality where I live. No build up of scale on anything. My old Nespresso has never been descaled in 15+ years!

You could go full third wave and use fancy water... lol... probably not 🙂

@kimura54321 I purge the grinder before every shot. The Eureka Mignon retains <1g so the wastage is minimal.

I only use Volvic in my Europiccola.

@kingofhtefr - Worth checking how much you purge, part of the “sales pitch” for single dose grinders is on the cost of the wasted coffee. Might not be so bad if you go for cheaper beans, could be worse if you dabble in a few or use it for decaf and filter as well.

If it’s 6g a day, then ~2.2kg per year.

If your coffee is £30 a kilo, then over a 10 year expected grinder life it could be ~£660 in total on wasted coffee.

That's one of my questions - presumably if you use a bag of beans then go on to the next you don't lose that much in singe dose grinders? But for switching beans…

That’s one of my questions – presumably if you use a bag of beans then go on to the next you don’t lose that much in singe dose grinders? But for switching beans…

exactly right, a 250g bag will get me 11 x 22g doses of beans. Which lasts me about 3-7 days depending whether my wife is wfh too. I do sometimes change beans every bag if I’m trying some new ones out, but usually I only change beans every other bag. Even then, you don’t really “lose” anything - it’s very unusual that the initial grind setting is so far off that the coffee is anything less than “pretty good” (ie: not wasted)

Part of the advantage for me is that I’ll have a decaf occasionally. And the only way to really do that without a single dose grinder is to subject yourself to pre ground coffee, or have two grinders.

I keep little baggies of decaf beans in the freezer, along with a note of what grind setting to use, and then just adjust my niche zero and grind them directly from frozen when needed. The trick is to remember to set the grinder back again for the regular beans afterwards

Edit: a pretty good use-case is if you are making milk based drinks AND espresso/long blacks (americanos). You might to want to use different beans for these - so a single dose grinder would allow you to do that

@batfink

Quick question...
When changing to decaf beans, how much would you change the NZ grind setting by?
Or is the change because they are from frozen?

Ta

@stanley, chipping in here as I do this too with an NZ, about 3-4 marks finer for pure decaf, less if going 50/50 which I do at times too. So not a massive amount. This is with room temp brand not frozen as I use decent containers so don't need to freeze beans.

For the main thread question, I have a Flair Pro2 and Niche, it's not cheap and it doesn't make rapid coffee but it does beat most of the coffee shops too, not that I live that close to any. Largely working from home and used through Covid it's all been in daily use for a few years and because the flair is so simple there's no sign of wear and tear even.

Isn’t a Flair the steel SS 29er of espresso machines? 🤔

Thanks @Toby1,
I'll try going slightly finer as I switch to my afternoon decaf.
It tastes ok as I've been making it, but always looking to learn more and improve! I'm still getting some variation in weights and times. Just bought a new tamper and "needle thing" to try and improve consistency.
Cheers

Ah the WDT, or expensive spoon as my wife calls it!

The Flair really is the SS 29er, or perhaps even 26er as it's kind of old school and mostly just for nerds!

When changing to decaf beans, how much would you change the NZ grind setting by?
Or is the change because they are from frozen?

The change is mostly because they are different beans/age - not because they are decaf. Yeah, I go finer by 2-3 steps, but some of that could be to do with the frozen beans or their age vs the fresher beans that I’m using day-to-day.

Keeping my ratio the same (22in / 44out) helps - as does using the same sorts of blends (medium roasts), at about the same freshness (2 weeks from roast date). I find that I don’t really move my grinder more that a couple of clicks in either direction - even when changing beans. As I said in my previous post, I usually have go a click finer towards the end of a bag to adjust for freshness, but that’s about it.

I do occasionally freeze a whole bag of regular beans, then defrost it all at once to use. I haven’t really noticed that I have to grind significantly finer for these - maybe towards the finer end of normal?

But my finding is that (in my use-case) bean freshness is the primary determinant of grind size, even more so than brand/blend of beans, and that freezing beans (vacuum packed, natch) doesn’t impact the grind setting hugely