Espressotrackworld

With a traditional espresso machine, if you have a good enough grinder the making of the espresso is not hard at all. It's quite precise, and you need to get it right, but it's not difficult. I started with a second hand grinder and struggled for a month, but once I sorted that out (needed new burrs) it was fine. Later got a better grinder and it was immediately better again.

Espresso grind is much finer than cafetiere or filter. Grinders are adjustable. For espresso you need a grinder that is capable of that fine a grind, and good quality. When you change beans you sometimes have then to adjust the grind, so it's quite sensitive to that. A little too coarse and the water runs through too quickly, not extracting properly, and the coffee doesn't taste nice. Get it right and the espresso is thicker with some sweetness. To start with you have to trial and error your way to the grind setting. Once you've got the hang of it you just leave it be unless it needs a change, which you'll probably guess in one go, near enough.

We have a dual boiler E61 machine, bought 2nd hand. Expensive, but it's 10 years old now.

I was a Nespresso user, but during lockdown changed to a bean-to-cup Espresso machine. The savings of beans vs capsules paid for the machine inside a year with 3 heavy drinkers in the house.

There’s a refurbished delonghi site that offers the same warranty as new, but with big discounts. Very impressed.

Thanks both. Should add that usage case is 2-3 espressos a day usually, probably a bit more at the weekend.

Not necessarily all that fussed about E.g. steam wands.

Lelit Anna looks nice but not sure?

* How hard is it to make espresso properly?

Making espresso well takes quite a bit of trial and error at first. Once you find a routine that gets you coffee that you like with a faff level you like it gets easier. It will always be much more of a process than a pod machine or a filter coffee so you have to enjoy the process itself for it to be worthwhile IMO.

* What’s the difference between cafetière grind and espresso grind?

A reasonable ballpark is cafetiere is like granular sugar and espesso is like icing sugar (not quite, but close enough I think). To get the grind size right for espresso usually means quite an expensive grinder - they start at about £300 for electric grinders or about £120 for hand grinders. Cheaper secondhand, obvs. If this sounds like more hassle than you want then bean-to-cup or nespresso are probably the way forward.

* What’s a good starter machine

Other will know better about actual machines than me but if you're happy to supply some elbow grease (and a bit of faff pre-heating) then lever machines like the Flair might be worth a look. The Flair Neo is relatively cheap and also designed to work well with coarser grinds.

James Hoffman also says making espresso at home has to be a hobby, something you enjoy tinkering with, experimenting and playing around. Then that process restarts when you get the next bag of beans. It’s a bit frustrating and not something you can just ‘do’. IME it’s really hard to get decent espresso even with a good machine (in my case a Barista Pro).

Making a decent Americano or latte is v easy by comparison.

James Hoffman also says making espresso at home has to be a hobby, something you enjoy tinkering with, experimenting and playing around.

Not necessarily all that fussed about E.g. steam wands.

Aye, wary of getting any more time sinks.

Did like the look of the Sage Bambino Plus but it was suggested that it’s too easy to move around?

Quite easy to go down a black hole of looking at horrifically expensive machines on this…

I slipped down this particular rabbit hole a few months ago. I thought I would buy a nice little burr hand grinder and an Aeropress to sit beside the old French Press and Moka pot...

This soon escalated to a Niche Zero grinder, scales, temperature gauges, grind gauges, notebooks, etc. I then bought a fairly cheap Sage Bambino espresso machine that then prompted more spending on tampers, a bottomless portafilter, knock-out bin, tamper mat, etc. A friend bought me a lovely V60 pour-over kit as a wedding gift; this is easily my favourite brewing method... relaxing to use, exquisite to drink (once you get the method right!).

Regarding the espresso machine: I'm fairly happy with the Bambino; particularly as it was almost half-price direct from Sage. Took a few "pulls" to get things something like right, but pretty good now. I'm certainly happy that I put most of the budget into getting a high quality grinder though. No point in having a fancy espresso machine if you can't get the grind right.

Just another thought...
I didn't think I'd use the steam wand either, but it's become an intriguing new tool. If I were ever to upgrade (unlikely) then it would be to have a steam wand that has more control and adjustment.

1. Not that hard. Just a few basic rules to work to
2. Espresso is much finer. But you will need to play around with your grind settings and time to suit your bean to get the right pull time.
3. Lots of good basic machines - sage, classics, Silvia's etc. But my Silvia has just started tripping the RCD so I will need to strip it down and find the fault.

I was bought a barista course as a birthday present.... really good day out and far better than YouTube. I recommend one of these if you can. Try your local roaster.

You kind of have to decide where you are on the money/faff/snobbery spectrum.

It goes roughly like this I reckon:

Delonghi et al - cheap, not really an espresso machine because they don't make it by high pressure through a compressed puck of coffee, rather they just steep grinds in water. Presumably still quite faffy. IMO not really worth bothering with over eg filter/aeropress but YMMV. Many will be very happy with them though I'm sure.

A range of bean to cup machines - min faff, some apparently produce good coffee but I haven't tried them. Some don't. Different discussion I think.

Basic but "proper" espresso machines like Gaggia Classic (are they still good?) or Rancilio Silvia. In the right hands, as good a coffee (near enough) as a more expensive machine IMO. These are probably the classic "starter machines".

E61 single boiler - flashier version of the above. More expensive.

Same but dual boiler - more expensive again, probably easier to use than a single boiler. Essentially the machine you see in a cafe but a home version.

Any PID type chat or more technical stuff about pressure = only of interest to a small minority that doesn't include me. Way beyond any starter machine debate.

Alongide any proper espresso machine you need a decent grinder. And I'd recommend a single dosing one because bean freshness is everything, both in terms of quality and because it takes away an annoying element of learning to make a decent espresso.

Lever machines cover the whole "proper" espresso machine spectrum too. Worth a look, not sure if they save money or not, compared with similar quality pumped ones. Never tried one myself.

@Yak Good thought about a barista course. Anyone know of one in GM (if there is good coffee in Rochdale proper, I’ve yet to find it…)

@luket Thanks - that’s all useful.

I'm in the same boat but can't justify the faff time. I have a goo d aeropress recipe that I'm happy to use at the weekend. The convenience of dropping a pod (vertuo) in while getting ready in the morning is hard to beat. Then I go to work and use my original machine. I think I need to rethink my work coffee routine and go back to cafetiere or get another aeropress.

Had anyone used ese pods? If any good could be a good alternative for weekdays with the machine sitting there ready to nerd out at the weekend.

Edit: at home I have Nespresso vertuo, aeropress, cafetiere and Moka pot. All get used to varying degrees but the Nespresso is the main contender.

Re the Gaggia Classic as an entry level machine:

I bought a pre-2015 Gaggia Classic and Sage grinder on eBay three or so years ago. It makes nice coffee. I don't worry so much about extraction volume, shape of liquid as it pours out of the bottomless portafilter any more. Don't need to seek perfection on every brew just need coffee!

Need to stay on top of descaling regularly with the Classic otherwise the solenoid valve blocks up and then you'll need to service it. Sometimes can be unblocked by alternating switches to change flow of water between brew head and steam wand. More likely unplug wires and dismantle boiler, descale, and reassemble. They're simple machines so people such as myself with no electronics knowledge can manage it just note which wires go where.

You might need a pressure gauge to re-set the pressure if you dismantle the pressure valve.

My classic became blocked at the end of 2021 and needed to be dismantled cleaned out and rebuilt over the Christmas period. Despite this I was lazy this year and didn't bother descaling and it became blocked within 10 months.

Still happy with it though. The tap for the steam valve is a pita though, leaky again, new one barely lasted a year before leaking.

Another Gaggia Classic user here mine from 2005 , I stripped it down and replaced and cleaned whatever it needed, I've a another Classic and a Gran Gaggia to swap bits about
Must recondition my Rancilio Silvia, needing stripped and the rusty base plate shot blasted and painted, very annoying with a 8 year old machine
Grinder is a must , just look for a cafe getting rid of one , so cheap and rarely go wrong but could be a wee bit bulky in the kitchen

I'm quickly realising that coffee machines are like cameras. The machine is like the camera and the grinder etc like the lenses.

Sage Oracle user here I’m happy with it, but next time I’ll get a separate grinder and espresso machine.

I agree with others that the grind is all important. It should be done just before you make the coffee. You should get a burr grinder, not blade to ensure a uniform grind.

I don’t have milk in my coffee, but my partner does. She doesn’t use the included steamer, but instead has a separate frother - made by Nespresso I believe. She reckons it’s much better, and looks-wise she is right.

Basically: fresh beans you like and a good grind will get you good espresso.

Got a gaggia and sage grinder, took a while to get good coffee but turned out to be crap beans not the hardware.

I've got a spare brand new warranty replacement sage grinder I ought to stick on the 'bay.

@ratherbeintogabo I have a Sage Bambino Plus bought right at the beginning of lockdown from the German refurb place, can't remember the name of it but I bought the top graded one and it was an open box return, had never been used and only cost be £190.

Yes it's a bit easy to move but it doesn't really bother me but I do have to hold it with one hand whilst inserting or removing the portafilter. Would be nice if it didn't but it's not end of the world.

For me it's the right balance, it makes alright coffee and is pretty simple to use, it also does a good job of automatically frothing milk but I appreciate you said this wasn't a priority. I like coffee but am by no means a snob so it works for me andeams I don't have to dedicate loads of time to it.

Had anyone used ese pods?

I've used ESE pods and found that they're a step up from Nespresso but a bit limiting in terms of available pods. I got mine from coffeeroyale.co.uk. Ultimately I converted my ESE machine to just using a normal basket, which maybe tells you something 🙂

I thought there was an issue with ESE pods only being a ‘single’ shot? Edit - looks like you can get double pods, though not sure if they fit in a standard ESE portafilter

Someone was suggesting Black Donkey pods which I’d meant to google.

Thinking further about this, 7g of coffee in an ESE pod is about the same as what’s in an Nespresso capsule, and presumably ESE pods being made of paper can go in the compost bin?

7g isn't very much coffee for an espresso though. I'd reckon on using at least double that, and then double that weight for the extracted shot.

Thinking further about this, 7g of coffee in an ESE pod is about the same as what’s in an Nespresso capsule, and presumably ESE pods being made of paper can go in the compost bin?

Don't know much about ESE at all - do they keep them fresh by putting each one in it's own little packet? If so then that would make it harder to justify them on environmental grounds.

If you're used to an espresso from a Nespresso machine then a proper espresso from an espresso machine might taste quite different. I don't know what your budget is but for a decent entry level machine and grinder you'll realistically be looking at over £500 and can quite easily get into four figures if you want something slightly more fancy.

I think the talk of espresso being a hobby isn't strictly true, if you want great espresso every day then it might be hard work but if you just like a decent small, strong coffee then it doesn't have to be too much hassle. Having decent equipment and using good, freshly ground beans should beat a Nespresso.

@stevious That’s a fair point.

Does anyone know?

Got a Jura bean to cup off of marketplace (looks like originally it was over 5 grand AUD)

Paid $200 and it's fabulous. Only problem is once you have access to a espresso at the touch of a button, you'll drink more. I think most days I've had 2-3 esperessi before I've left the house!

Delonghi et al – cheap, not really an espresso machine because they don’t make it by high pressure through a compressed puck of coffee, rather they just steep grinds in water. Presumably still quite faffy

Rubbish 🙂 The Delonghi's are in your 'bean to cup' category. They spit out pucks of coffee alongside a strong espresso with crema. I just set the temperature preference when I got it years ago, and normally leave it on the finest grind but occasionally, depending on the beans, need to move it one or two clicks coarser when the machine aborts and dumps the puck after expelling two teaspoons of water into the mug!

I was always tempted by a 'proper' espresso machine and grinder but my brother jumped in head first and turns out he has to mess about every time he changes beans, I like coffee but when I'm leaving for work in five minutes and need to open a new bag, I don't want to have three attempts to fill my travel mug!

Yes ESE pods are in their own foil packet like a condom :-). Making 2 double espressos is a world of faff !!

@DrJ Is that four pods then?

Never actually googled what they are before, but ESE sounds like a fairly crap halfway-house solution tbh!

Is there such a thing as bean to cup machine that you can periodically use different coffee? Starting to think I need to invest in a b2c.

I’ve seen B2C machines with two hoppers that you can choose between. The machine I’ve got (sage oracle) is similar to a B2C but not. Possibly occupies its own niche! You could use the integrated grinder/tamper most of the time but then optionally grind (with separate grinder) different beans & tamp them yourself.

I went Sage Bambino Plus with the Sage standalone grinder, very happy with it.

My espresso settings is grind 18, time 11.2 seconds for a double

Had a Gaggia classic for years before I bought my Rocket R58. Take care with the grind and brew ratio and the Gaggia will deliver a fantastic coffee especially given the price difference between it and the Rocket. Works well with a naked portafilter and will handle a much finer grind than many others at that price point. The new classic with the upgraded steam wand looks pretty much the business.

Avoid Bean to Cup in my opinion. They're a nightmare to clean, taste burnt, and you can't properly control the grind.

Nespresso - may as well just add water to an ashtray.

Sage are good, but personally I don't like the intergrated grinder idea or the small sized portafilter.

I'd be shopping for a Gaggia classic or setting up ebay alerts for a Rocket apartmento or similar.

Couldn't bring myself to go for the the mega expensive, so:

have a Sage duotemp pro which is a half way house to a twin boiler - different temps for the brew and steam wand

Have a Hario Skerton hand grinder which is adjustable and you get to know how your grind is from the resistance, and can work out by sight how much you need. too fine and the sage just gets swamped, too coarse and the coffee is watery. Took a couple of hours of faffing and now sorted

Worth getting freshly roasted from your local roaster.

It's a short ritual to make a decent coffee, but that is a bit of headspace in a working day

Nespresso – may as well just add water to an ashtray.

I think the general trend is away from Nespresso here. The man Hoffman has Views on Nespresso, as you'd expect.

I think the general trend is away from Nespresso here.

TBF to Nestlé, Nespresso pods have always been recyclable (by them) but it does mean shipping heavy bags of aluminium and used coffee round the country. A lot of the third party Nespresso pods and other pod systems, on the other hand…

TBF to Nestlé, Nespresso pods have always been recyclable (by them) but it does mean shipping heavy bags of aluminium and used coffee round the country.

I bought a Sage Barista Express last Xmas. It was a relatively steep learning curve to start with but easy enough to apply what I've learnt to any other machine now.

You have to be a bit OCD and keep all your variables consistent otherwise you'll struggle to figure out why your coffee tastes the way it does.

You'll want some scales to weigh coffee in vs coffee out.

Knowing what I know now i'd wish i'd gone for something like a Niche Zero grinder and a Flair - I don't do milk drinks though.

Sage Barista Pro here. Just coming up to three years of ownership. Had Delonghi B2C before. Integrated grinder might not be the best, but over the years I've got pretty good at working out what works, Mostly as we use a local roaster and there are about four different blends they produce which I tend to stick with. So I know what setting I need for each. Fresh beans, clean water, constant grind and tamp(!) and you're pretty much there.

Machine has been faultless. Defo worth changing filter in the water res every three months, and I do follow the flush/clean alerts. Don't use the frother much but it does the job if that's your thing. Obviously nowhere near as good as a double boiler, but I probably use it 5 times a year for visitors. Strictly double espressos for me!

I also clean the grinder every couple of months. Sage recommends you run it empty which sounds horrible but apparently is good practice.

Also watched a lot of vids on YT, but now just do my own thing. Test for me is it's rare I can get a coffee as good from a cafe/pub (over-roasted, burnt, water too hot, too much water, etc, etc) and everyone who has a cup from my Sage seems to rate it.

I did look at getting an Oracle but I can't justify it.

I did look at getting an Oracle but I can’t justify it.

Probably worth adding that once you get the hang of making a decent coffee you will have completely ruined the experience of drinking a coffee from a cafe 90% of the time!